How Catholics Justify Their Distinctives Biblically

Berserk

Member
The starting points of polemical apologetics is an awareness of the opponents' working assumptions and their biblical justifications. Most Evangelicals operate within a myopic Fundamentalist thought Ghetto that is blissfully ignorant of the case for Christian perspectives outside their Ghetto. Honest apologetics must begin with an effort to grasp how such rival perspectives might ground their distinctive beliefs and practices in Scripture and self-authenticating experience. Evangelical forums are notorious for their frequent mindless slander of Catholic distinctives. So this thread is devoted to a discussion of how informed Catholic apologists might defend their distinctives with the support of biblical teaching. My goal in starting this thread is to demonstrate how critical engagement with Catholic apologetics can help you leave your comfort zone and discover helpful new insights into biblical teaching.

The thread will focus on the 7 Catholic distinctives listed below one at a time:

(1) Purgatory
(2) praying to the saints (including Mary)
(3) sprinkling with holy water
(4) Eucharistic Transubstantiation
(5) the authority of Catholic tradition
(6) the role of good works in salvation
(7) the redemptive role of baptism

To avoid chaos, I ask that you stick to each topic until I shift the focus to the next of the 7 topics. Please demonstrate that you know what you're talking about by addressing your initial comments to Catholic biblical justifications for that topic.
(1) The first topic is Purgatory. So let's begin with these 2 questions: (a) How might an informed Catholic apologist ground their belief in Purgatory biblically?
(b) What famous Evangelical apologist has been won over by the doctrine of Purgatory?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
The starting points of polemical apologetics is an awareness of the opponents' working assumptions and their biblical justifications. Most Evangelicals operate within a myopic Fundamentalist thought Ghetto that is blissfully ignorant of the case for Christian perspectives outside their Ghetto. Honest apologetics must begin with an effort to grasp how such rival perspectives might ground their distinctive beliefs and practices in Scripture and self-authenticating experience. Evangelical forums are notorious for their frequent mindless slander of Catholic distinctives. So this thread is devoted to a discussion of how informed Catholic apologists might defend their distinctives with the support of biblical teaching. My goal in starting this thread is to demonstrate how critical engagement with Catholic apologetics can help you leave your comfort zone and discover helpful new insights into biblical teaching.

The thread will focus on the 7 Catholic distinctives listed below one at a time:

(1) Purgatory
(2) praying to the saints (including Mary)
(3) sprinkling with holy water
(4) Eucharistic Transubstantiation
(5) the authority of Catholic tradition
(6) the role of good works in salvation
(7) the redemptive role of baptism

To avoid chaos, I ask that you stick to each topic until I shift the focus to the next of the 7 topics. Please demonstrate that you know what you're talking about by addressing your initial comments to Catholic biblical justifications for that topic.
(1) The first topic is Purgatory. So let's begin with these 2 questions: (a) How might an informed Catholic apologist ground their belief in Purgatory biblically?
(b) What famous Evangelical apologist has been won over by the doctrine of Purgatory?
I actually do not care what Catholics believe, nor do I Baptists, nor Methodists, nor Mormons, nor Muslims, nor COCs, AOGs nor any other religious belief system.

What matters to me is to square my life with the standards of Jesus to be as he was in the Father and walk as He walks in His same light anointed of God, not what these enterprises present with a facade of religious muck governed by the laws they have establish to regulate their gods. Where they have no intent in being in the image of God they are supposed to be of as Jesus was.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I actually do not care what Catholics believe, nor...

What matters to me... <snip> not what these enterprises present with a facade of religious muck governed by the laws they have establish to regulate their gods. Where they have no intent in being in the image of God they are supposed to be of as Jesus was.
Yeah, yeah, you don't care what they believe...LOL!!!!!!!!! :ROFLMAO: :rolleyes:
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Yeah, yeah, you don't care what they believe...LOL!!!!!!!!! :ROFLMAO: :rolleyes:
Exactly -- They have noting I need. All they want from me is dedication to them in their beliefs and laws for tradition they establish to govern their gods and give them money to support their beliefs.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Yeah, yeah, you don't care what they believe...LOL!!!!!!!!! :ROFLMAO: :rolleyes:
Love is not a religion. God is a Spirit and that Spirit is Love and either one has His same disposition that of Love or one doesnt.

As far as me being like all these different belief systems, all I can do is compare what they believe with what Jesus said ye shall be IF. Everything Jesus presents comes with an IF. And all I can do of myself is compare my life with the standards Jesus set for us to be like him in the Father. If there is anything different in me from him then I have turned to religious beliefs instead of the manifestation of the God Jesus presented that we should be like Him as he was like Him by His same Spirit, mind, Love, be my own. But that just isnt a good enough answer for most religious folk to understand the simplicity of Him who is Love

You asked me questions now may I ask you ... DO you follow Jesus in his way to the Father for God to manifest Himself in you as He did in Jesus and you perfect as He is as He demands of us, or are you of one of these belief systems governed by the set of bylaws they hand you are the door to believe if you are to be a member of their religious organization?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
or are you of one of these belief systems governed by the set of bylaws they hand you are the door to believe if you are to be a member of their religious organization?
Oh, OK. :sneaky: :ROFLMAO:

So "they" handed me a set of bylaws "are" <sic> the door to believe? Which door was it? Front door, back door, East door, North door, South door, or West door? How many pages were in it? What did I have to believe? Which organization?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Exactly -- They have noting I need. All they want from me is dedication to them in their beliefs and laws for tradition they establish to govern their gods and give them money to support their beliefs.
Sure. Of course. That's what "they" do. You've nailed "them" Gary. :rolleyes:

How many other than you will make it to heaven? Can't be more than you, "they" own the rest. Just you and maybe one more. Congrats!!!
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
You do realize @Gary Mac that everything you post is about how wonderful you are, how spiritual you are, how special you are, how right you are, and how wrong everyone else is, and, that it isn't really about Jesus as you assert, of Whom you only give token praise, and it's all really about you?

Do you realize yet that you're the Pharisee described in Luke 18:9-14? Or, do you not realize this yet?

Go on, tell us more of your greatness in comparison to others.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Sure. Of course. That's what "they" do. You've nailed "them" Gary. :rolleyes:

How many other than you will make it to heaven? Can't be more than you, "they" own the rest. Just you and maybe one more. Congrats!!!
Make it to heaven? The kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is within you, or is supposed to be according to Jesus in Luke 17:20-21. And by identification with him, I live it this day. An after life for the sweet by and by is not an issue with me, who I Am today is. If Im pure in Holy Love as my God is today then I have no worries for tomorrow.

If people see that in a negative way my suggestion is to seek ye first the kingdom of God, where did Jesus say that kingdom is? Most dont seek His kingdom first they seek the laws from opinions of those they listen to besides Jesus. Heaven is the state of one being, the disposition of the Father. The grave is not going to reveal God at all. If one cant see Him while he is alive what makes one think he will when you are dead? It is to late by then to know Him.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
You do realize @Gary Mac that everything you post is about how wonderful you are, how spiritual you are, how special you are, how right you are, and how wrong everyone else is, and, that it isn't really about Jesus as you assert, of Whom you only give token praise, and it's all really about you?
Everything God is is about me and who I am in Him. If you cant relate to Him I understand why you think as you do about what I say about Him and who I Am in Him. And all who is in Him are exactly as He is no different at all. Your pride sees His way as a negative is all.
Do you realize yet that you're the Pharisee described in Luke 18:9-14? Or, do you not realize this yet?
I realize I am a son of God by the same Spirit in me who was in Christ Jesus. If that is heretical for you then my suggestion would be to seek ye first His kingdom. Where did Jesus say the kingdom of God is? As for me Jesus was spot on, it is in me.

Seems you can relate to the Pharisees Jesus spoke to in Luke 17:20-21 but cant relate to where the kingdom of God really is.
Go on, tell us more of your greatness in comparison to others.
All I can do is compare my life with the standards of Jesus Christ. If I am anything less than who he said I should be like him in the Father then I have failed him.

Im sorry that you see the way of Christ as a negative in comparison to your own doctrine. You want me to be like you, God wants me to be like Him. Obediance to Him instead of you is where He reveals His greatness just as He revealed Himself in Jesus. He really is great, and a great way, great truth, and great life to live. Jesus live the way the truth and the life as well and even stated no one comes to the Father but his way, but most dont follow him in that way to do they? They scorn and mock we who do dont they?

You are confusing confidence the Father gives in man with your religious outlook is all. That doesnt look noble toward God at all, that only looks noble to religious folk with their own same agendas about religion.
 

Berserk

Member
Notice that, even after several days, no evangelical poster has addressed the challenge of identifying the biblical foundation of the Catholic distinctives specified in my OP. Much anti-Catholic venom expressed by Evangelicals is based on ignorance.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I actually do not care what Catholics believe, nor do I Baptists, nor Methodists, nor Mormons, nor Muslims, nor COCs, AOGs nor any other religious belief system.

Yes it only matters that we agree with one man, the man Jesus Christ.

What matters to me is to square my life with the standards of Jesus to be as he was in the Father and walk as He walks in His same light anointed of God, not what these enterprises present with a facade of religious muck governed by the laws they have establish to regulate their gods. Where they have no intent in being in the image of God they are supposed to be of as Jesus was.

What the Harlot says is for the deceived.
 

utilyan

Member
The starting points of polemical apologetics is an awareness of the opponents' working assumptions and their biblical justifications. Most Evangelicals operate within a myopic Fundamentalist thought Ghetto that is blissfully ignorant of the case for Christian perspectives outside their Ghetto. Honest apologetics must begin with an effort to grasp how such rival perspectives might ground their distinctive beliefs and practices in Scripture and self-authenticating experience. Evangelical forums are notorious for their frequent mindless slander of Catholic distinctives. So this thread is devoted to a discussion of how informed Catholic apologists might defend their distinctives with the support of biblical teaching. My goal in starting this thread is to demonstrate how critical engagement with Catholic apologetics can help you leave your comfort zone and discover helpful new insights into biblical teaching.

The thread will focus on the 7 Catholic distinctives listed below one at a time:

(1) Purgatory
(2) praying to the saints (including Mary)
(3) sprinkling with holy water
(4) Eucharistic Transubstantiation
(5) the authority of Catholic tradition
(6) the role of good works in salvation
(7) the redemptive role of baptism

To avoid chaos, I ask that you stick to each topic until I shift the focus to the next of the 7 topics. Please demonstrate that you know what you're talking about by addressing your initial comments to Catholic biblical justifications for that topic.
(1) The first topic is Purgatory. So let's begin with these 2 questions: (a) How might an informed Catholic apologist ground their belief in Purgatory biblically?
(b) What famous Evangelical apologist has been won over by the doctrine of Purgatory?

Preface. Under Calvinism and Reformed theologies there are TRIGGER words. Words that spark as HOLY WORDS, IMPORTANT WORDS that cannot be used VAINLY.

Example when a person hears CHOSEN, ELECT, PRAYER, FAITH, SACRAMENT, PURGATORY. IT becomes a MAGIC WORD a INCANTATION. Its very IMPORTANT that the words mean what they mean. Because you will notice just like in a word like PURGATORY people already packed in their own code and mess into the word so the meaning takes different forms.

1. A. Purgatory. IT MEANS CLEANSE. CLEAN. Its Latin. We Catholics offer speculations and state that they are speculations.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damnedd.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605


FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT. You can do a search in scripture for the word CLEANSE, It can happen multiple times.

That said if you got your own ideas as to what PURGATORY is, it is what it is. Most of the issues is a lot like Asking Nazis what Jews believe.
There are folks with the mindset every Catholic teaching "HAS" to be evil.

But here it is, FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT. Forget the P word that is a different language and will only confuse, Does FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT ever happen?

(a) How might an informed Catholic apologist ground their belief in Purgatory biblically?
We go to scriptures:

Revelations 21

27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those [t]whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Nothing impure enters heaven. That means a person will be cleansed. Our buddy here he might say well I have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus when he died on the cross. Perfectly Fine. If first time is the last time it is what it is----->FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT.


Now if folks come up with "purgatory time" or doing works in remedial heaven, those are SPECULATIONS, which may have spilled over from the JEWISH version of purgatory called KADDISH. You would basically do a mourners prayer for 11 months for purification.

If we start treating words like they are magic with packing more definition into the word purgatory. We will get a mess.

And we will see this again IN THE NEXT QUESTION when the magic word PRAYER is packed with a new meaning too.


(b) What famous Evangelical apologist has been won over by the doctrine of Purgatory?

Jerry Walls I heard. Although I wouldn't say Catholics won him over.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Preface. Under Calvinism and Reformed theologies there are TRIGGER words. Words that spark as HOLY WORDS, IMPORTANT WORDS that cannot be used VAINLY.

Example when a person hears CHOSEN, ELECT, PRAYER, FAITH, SACRAMENT, PURGATORY. IT becomes a MAGIC WORD a INCANTATION. Its very IMPORTANT that the words mean what they mean. Because you will notice just like in a word like PURGATORY people already packed in their own code and mess into the word so the meaning takes different forms.

1. A. Purgatory. IT MEANS CLEANSE. CLEAN. Its Latin. We Catholics offer speculations and state that they are speculations.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damnedd.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605


FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT. You can do a search in scripture for the word CLEANSE, It can happen multiple times.

That said if you got your own ideas as to what PURGATORY is, it is what it is. Most of the issues is a lot like Asking Nazis what Jews believe.
There are folks with the mindset every Catholic teaching "HAS" to be evil.

But here it is, FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT. Forget the P word that is a different language and will only confuse, Does FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT ever happen?

(a) How might an informed Catholic apologist ground their belief in Purgatory biblically?
We go to scriptures:

Revelations 21

27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those [t]whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Nothing impure enters heaven. That means a person will be cleansed. Our buddy here he might say well I have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus when he died on the cross. Perfectly Fine. If first time is the last time it is what it is----->FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT.


Now if folks come up with "purgatory time" or doing works in remedial heaven, those are SPECULATIONS, which may have spilled over from the JEWISH version of purgatory called KADDISH. You would basically do a mourners prayer for 11 months for purification.

If we start treating words like they are magic with packing more definition into the word purgatory. We will get a mess.

And we will see this again IN THE NEXT QUESTION when the magic word PRAYER is packed with a new meaning too.


(b) What famous Evangelical apologist has been won over by the doctrine of Purgatory?

Jerry Walls I heard. Although I wouldn't say Catholics won him over.
you left this out:
The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory
 

utilyan

Member
you left this out:
The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory
I'm pretty sure everyone believes in purgatory. Just plenty don't believe what THEY THINK it means, and neither would I.

Example Orthodox says " The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. "

We don't know if its a place at all. So I can agree with them.

The only absolute claim if there is any is---> FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT

Doesn't say how, when or where. Jesus Christ can come today wash a person with garden hose for all I know. Point is when a person gets into heaven they are pure, clean. They don't get a handicap version of clean, God actually heals them, scripture speaks Glorified Bodies.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I'm pretty sure everyone believes in purgatory. Just plenty don't believe what THEY THINK it means, and neither would I.

Example Orthodox says " The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. "

We don't know if its a place at all. So I can agree with them.

The only absolute claim if there is any is---> FINAL PURIFICATION OF ELECT

Doesn't say how, when or where. Jesus Christ can come today wash a person with garden hose for all I know. Point is when a person gets into heaven they are pure, clean. They don't get a handicap version of clean, God actually heals them, scripture speaks Glorified Bodies.

Believers are refined by fire NOW here in this life.

Judgement begins with the household of God.
 

Ignatius

Member
The starting points of polemical apologetics is an awareness of the opponents' working assumptions and their biblical justifications. Most Evangelicals operate within a myopic Fundamentalist thought Ghetto that is blissfully ignorant of the case for Christian perspectives outside their Ghetto. Honest apologetics must begin with an effort to grasp how such rival perspectives might ground their distinctive beliefs and practices in Scripture and self-authenticating experience. Evangelical forums are notorious for their frequent mindless slander of Catholic distinctives. So this thread is devoted to a discussion of how informed Catholic apologists might defend their distinctives with the support of biblical teaching. My goal in starting this thread is to demonstrate how critical engagement with Catholic apologetics can help you leave your comfort zone and discover helpful new insights into biblical teaching.

The thread will focus on the 7 Catholic distinctives listed below one at a time:

(1) Purgatory
(2) praying to the saints (including Mary)
(3) sprinkling with holy water
(4) Eucharistic Transubstantiation
(5) the authority of Catholic tradition
(6) the role of good works in salvation
(7) the redemptive role of baptism

To avoid chaos, I ask that you stick to each topic until I shift the focus to the next of the 7 topics. Please demonstrate that you know what you're talking about by addressing your initial comments to Catholic biblical justifications for that topic.
(1) The first topic is Purgatory. So let's begin with these 2 questions: (a) How might an informed Catholic apologist ground their belief in Purgatory biblically?
(b) What famous Evangelical apologist has been won over by the doctrine of Purgatory?
#4 is the paramount issue. When you get to that let me know.
 

Berserk

Member
Many evangelicals will be shocked to know that one of the greatest evangelical apologists believed in Purgatory. Here are the details:


C. S. also profoundly said, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." In others, confinement to Hell results from a refusal to repent and be transformed, even after death, not from an unloving divine fiat of eternal damnation. No evangelical here seems aware of the Catholic biblical justification for Purgatory. Can you guess which 4 NT texts can be advanced in support of this doctrine? Since no evangelical here knows, I will take them up in my next planned post.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Many evangelicals will be shocked to know that one of the greatest evangelical apologists believed in Purgatory. Here are the details:


C. S. also profoundly said, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." In others, confinement to Hell results from a refusal to repent and be transformed, even after death, not from an unloving divine fiat of eternal damnation. No evangelical here seems aware of the Catholic biblical justification for Purgatory. Can you guess which 4 NT texts can be advanced in support of this doctrine? Since no evangelical here knows, I will take them up in my next planned post.
My understanding of purgatory is a purging . Purging of self from a state of suffering, uneasy rest caused by sin that suppresses Gods intent, purging from the guilt of disobedience to be as He is as He demands of us, holy pure and without sin.
 
Top