How could there be light on day one when the sun is not created until day four?

inertia

Super Member
What point are you trying to make about the absence of Psalm 90 from the Qumran Psalter?

A new scroll artifact where Psalm 90 was discovered and dated older than the rest of the collection would be interesting.

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rossh

Well-known member
Hi rossh -

Indeed. God is capable of doing anything. He decided to reveal himself to people ranging from ancient times past - to human cultures throughout the world today using the books of the Bible.

One reason celestial objects were provided was stated in Genesis 1:14: "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

Apparently, He also made a promise to operate the heavens and the earth by physical laws too.

"But I, the LORD, make the following promise: I have made a covenant governing the coming of day and night. I have established the fixed laws governing heaven and earth." ( Jeremiah 33:25 )

Unless a star is in its formation stage, and still accreting material into its core, it will radiate light until it cannot any longer.

View attachment 1308
This is a very, very thick, large dust patch
called a "bok globule" accreting material
before igniting and producing a star.

In God's physical creation, stars radiate light due to nuclear reactions.



Unless there is a chemical reaction provided in the torch or a power supply to produce light in the lamp of a car, there will not be light in these two scenarios.




The same is true with glowworm LED lights. If you meant biological glowworms, their energy is provided by a chemical reaction.



😄 I haven't seen one of these since I was a child. Chemical reactions supply the energy here.
Amen, someone who understand what Scripture/s says.. Here is an issue, when Moses wrote the books that he wrote ( 5 ), what do you think Moses would have thought on Gods Word if, God had tried to point out the era that we are in these present days, the future prophecies ? Men in tin cans flying to the moon and submarines remaining under the seas/water for months at a time ? or, explain how a 50 caliber machine gun works etc; etc; ? or how the sun gives of heat and light.
I think that even though that Moses. who was himself, was well educated, he would have run a mile.. People do not understand this, and it was explained to me by a Pastor.
 

rossh

Well-known member
Hi rossh -

Indeed. God is capable of doing anything. He decided to reveal himself to people ranging from ancient times past - to human cultures throughout the world today using the books of the Bible.

One reason celestial objects were provided was stated in Genesis 1:14: "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

Apparently, He also made a promise to operate the heavens and the earth by physical laws too.

"But I, the LORD, make the following promise: I have made a covenant governing the coming of day and night. I have established the fixed laws governing heaven and earth." ( Jeremiah 33:25 )

Unless a star is in its formation stage, and still accreting material into its core, it will radiate light until it cannot any longer.

View attachment 1308
This is a very, very thick, large dust patch
called a "bok globule" accreting material
before igniting and producing a star.

In God's physical creation, stars radiate light due to nuclear reactions.



Unless there is a chemical reaction provided in the torch or a power supply to produce light in the lamp of a car, there will not be light in these two scenarios.




The same is true with glowworm LED lights. If you meant biological glowworms, their energy is provided by a chemical reaction.



😄 I haven't seen one of these since I was a child. Chemical reactions supply the energy here.
my post is in answer to those who say, " if God created light first but then later on, created stars, then God is wrong. " .. that is what some are claiming, my point is that not only the sun gives of the created LIGHT!!
 

rossh

Well-known member
Waltke didn't state it. Dr. Poythress stated that he did, here ---> GENESIS 1:1 IS THE FIRST EVENT, NOT A SUMMARY.

Here is the conclusion:

"
III. Conclusion

In conclusion, all three of the main arguments for the summary view have superficial plausibility, but none has weight. In addition, as of 2001, Waltke himself no longer holds to the second argument contained in his earlier work (in 1974 and 1975). The summary view is much weaker than many have taken it to be. By contrast, the initiation view makes good sense of the phrase meanings, theology, and syntax of Gen 1:1–2 in relation to Gen 1:1–2:3 as a whole, and beyond (the rest of Genesis and the rest of the Bible). It is the correct view. "

As you can see, Dr. Poythress has reason to believe that Genesis 1:1 interpreted as an event is the correct view. Waltke's second argument is a premise about an implied organization within Genesis 1:2 that doesn't hold.

_________
Please note the dates;
Moses,, After 40 years of wandering in the desert, Moses died within sight of the Promised Land on Mount Nebo. Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE; Jerome suggested 1592 BCE, and James Ussher suggested 1571 BCE as his birth year.
Now, on your explanation above, how do you think that your words/explanation would have been received way back in the days of Moses ?
Also, no one is saying anything about what you said, it is a comparison of the times... Even Moses sinned, he was punished by not being able to enter the Promised land. This proves that all mankind is sinful all of us and this is why God had to give us His Only begotten Son to die in our place. If any one else had of died for us, he would not have been allowed to be resurrected from the dead, as the sinless Messiah is.
 

En Hakkore

Well-known member
A new scroll artifact where Psalm 90 was discovered and dated older than the rest of the collection would be interesting.
Any such manuscript discoveries would be interesting, indeed... though what this specific hoped-for find would do to help your position is unclear. While we're waiting for a Bedouin shepherd to stumble across it, perhaps we could move on... once again, I'll give you the lead as to where that is.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 

inertia

Super Member
... Here is an issue, when Moses wrote the books that he wrote ( 5 ), what do you think Moses would have thought on Gods Word if, God had tried to point out the era that we are in these present days, the future prophecies?

As you may have noticed throughout this thread, the standard church tradition that Moses penned the initial five books of the Bible ( the Torah ) is essentially abandoned in academic circles and even among some conservative Old Testament scholars.

I trust Jesus. Here is an example from Matthew 19: 7-8:

"They said to him, "Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?" Jesus said to them, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts, but from the beginning it was not this way." [ Reference - Deuteronomy 24:1 ]

God knows the future, and Moses had to traverse his own path in his day. Just as ancient cultures had their models of how things work, we have ours. All of us are to seek understanding and this requires work.

"The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you. She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.” (Proverbs 4:7-9)

I believe that if Moses would have been in awe of our technology and possibly call it magic. o_O

Men in tin cans flying to the moon and submarines remaining under the seas/water for months at a time ? or, explain how a 50 caliber machine gun works etc; etc; ? or how the sun gives of heat and light.

His ancient worldview was a lot different, but God can speak to mankind despite our lack of understanding.

The Hebrew Universe.jpg

I think that even though that Moses. who was himself, was well educated, he would have run a mile.. People do not understand this, and it was explained to me by a Pastor.

Maybe he could have run a three-mile course in 20 minutes. Still, from birth to his end I have reason to believe that Moses lived an extraordinary life.

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inertia

Super Member
my post is in answer to those who say, " if God created light first but then later on, created stars, then God is wrong. " .. that is what some are claiming, my point is that not only the sun gives of the created LIGHT!!

Crowcross ( an ardent young-earth-creationist ) who is another poster here at CARM, would probably agree with this point-of-view.

_____
 

inertia

Super Member
Please note the dates;
Moses,, After 40 years of wandering in the desert, Moses died within sight of the Promised Land on Mount Nebo. Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE; Jerome suggested 1592 BCE, and James Ussher suggested 1571 BCE as his birth year.
Now, on your explanation above, how do you think that your words/explanation would have been received way back in the days of Moses ?
Also, no one is saying anything about what you said, it is a comparison of the times... Even Moses sinned, he was punished by not being able to enter the Promised land. This proves that all mankind is sinful all of us and this is why God had to give us His Only begotten Son to die in our place. If any one else had of died for us, he would not have been allowed to be resurrected from the dead, as the sinless Messiah is.

The context of the discussion here is the question:

Is Genesis 1:1 a summary that describes creation starting with Genesis 1:2, or is it an event like the other events described in God's creation of the heavens and the earth?

As you can see, this has nothing to do with Jerome or James Ussher's chronology. The answer provides a basis for understanding the rest of the narrative.

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inertia

Super Member
Any such manuscript discoveries would be interesting, indeed... though what this specific hoped-for find would do to help your position is unclear. While we're waiting for a Bedouin shepherd to stumble across it, perhaps we could move on... once again, I'll give you the lead as to where that is.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

I have a quick unrelated to the topic question that you may be able to help me with.

Why is the Hebrew word for Egypt ( מִצְרַ֫יִם ) always in dual form?

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rossh

Well-known member
The context of the discussion here is the question:

Is Genesis 1:1 a summary that describes creation starting with Genesis 1:2, or is it an event like the other events described in God's creation of the heavens and the earth?

As you can see, this has nothing to do with Jerome or James Ussher's chronology. The answer provides a basis for understanding the rest of the narrative.

______
and you are trying to say what exactly ?
CJB 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water. .. ( Moses never used verse numbers nor chapter numbers and wrote left to right )
 

rossh

Well-known member
Crowcross ( an ardent young-earth-creationist ) who is another poster here at CARM, would probably agree with this point-of-view.

_____
God was inspiring Moses to write, a man who lived way back before any scientific disciplines had evolved. The language therefore, had to suitable for his time era.
 

En Hakkore

Well-known member
I have a quick unrelated to the topic question that you may be able to help me with.

Why is the Hebrew word for Egypt ( מִצְרַ֫יִם ) always in dual form?

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Ancient Egypt was a unification of once-independent 'upper' and 'lower' kingdoms and the idea of Egypt being two lands persisted in terminology inside and outside its borders. Hope this helps...

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 

inertia

Super Member
and you are trying to say what exactly ?
CJB 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water. .. ( Moses never used verse numbers nor chapter numbers and wrote left to right
A agree. The numbers of verses were not put in until a later time in history. However, anyone writing in Hebrew wrote from right to left.

Although there are three common methods that are used to interpret Genesis One, two of them are considered the most common interpretation techniques to understand creation.

A.) The traditional interpretation:

This interpretation is also called the initiation view. Here Genesis 1:1 is considered a critical part of the whole text and treated as one part of a sequential set of events starting with: "In The Beginning". The following verse changes the paradigm from that of the universe to the earth's deep water and dark state. The following verse 3 continues with the narrative where God said "Let there be light." This method was is common with early Christians and Jewish interpreters.

B.) The mainline interpretation

This interpretation designates Genesis 1:1 as a summary statement that begins with a universe in an organized state. Instead of being an event, it's a stage setter in preparation for the actual starting point in verse 2 that discusses a cold-dark earthscape. The phrase "the heavens and the earth" is seen as a merism that designates the whole by employing the use of opposites in one phrase.

One of them holds the belief that God created the universe Ex Nihilo, the other in Ex Materia where God coexists with eternal matter.
 

rossh

Well-known member
A agree. The numbers of verses were not put in until a later time in history. However, anyone writing in Hebrew wrote from right to left.

Although there are three common methods that are used to interpret Genesis One, two of them are considered the most common interpretation techniques to understand creation.

A.) The traditional interpretation:

This interpretation is also called the initiation view. Here Genesis 1:1 is considered a critical part of the whole text and treated as one part of a sequential set of events starting with: "In The Beginning". The following verse changes the paradigm from that of the universe to the earth's deep water and dark state. The following verse 3 continues with the narrative where God said "Let there be light." This method was is common with early Christians and Jewish interpreters.

B.) The mainline interpretation

This interpretation designates Genesis 1:1 as a summary statement that begins with a universe in an organized state. Instead of being an event, it's a stage setter in preparation for the actual starting point in verse 2 that discusses a cold-dark earthscape. The phrase "the heavens and the earth" is seen as a merism that designates the whole by employing the use of opposites in one phrase.

One of them holds the belief that God created the universe Ex Nihilo, the other in Ex Materia where God coexists with eternal matter.
well,, I do not do that,, I do this... " In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.. " Umm ? Golly geee wwizzer, what ever does that mean I wonder ?????????????????? I have to go ask my Mum......
nah only joking,, It means exactly what God said..
 

inertia

Super Member
well,, I do not do that,, I do this... " In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.. " Umm ? Golly geee wwizzer, what ever does that mean I wonder ?????????????????? I have to go ask my Mum......
nah only joking,, It means exactly what God said..

Yes, it means what was said using English. ( of course )

Using the KJV we read: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth.
Using the YLT we read: "In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and Earth --"
Using the HNV we read: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the eretz."

Notice the differences in interpretation. Even so, all of them agree that God was involved and in Hebrew, the sentence is comprised of seven words.

The use of exactly seven words is important signifying completeness or perfection. [ Reference: Christianity.com ]

The seven words are:

- In beginning (בְּרֵאשִׁית )

- created (בָּרָא )

- God –Elohim (אֱלֹהִים)

- Object marker (אֵת )

- The heaven(s) ( הַשָּׁמַיִם )

- And + marker (וְאֵת )

- The earth ( הָאָֽרֶץ )

The full sentence reads from right to left :

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

The word translated as “In beginning” does not refer to an event that transpired in an instant. It is a noun in the absolute state as it carries the same meaning as a noun in English. It is a feminine noun indicating the first phase of a project as it is used in Genesis 10:10 or a prologue is another apt translation or it can mean an element in the course of events as also used in Isaiah 45:10.

The second word in the sentence translated as “created” is the word bara (בָּרָא). The word is in the “Qal Perfect” form and it also represents a completed action. It is a masculine singular word, meaning he who causes or performs the action, and bara carries the concept of creating or making something new. Again the complete action is stated, in Hebrew, and this indicator is in addition to the use of exactly seven words.

The third word translated as God ( אֱלֹהִים ) or Elohim, is a plural, masculine noun, and it is the subject of a singular verb. The suffix (ים) makes the noun masculine plural.

The Hebrew phrase translated as “the heavens and the Earth” ( הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ ) uses words that are polar-like in meaning when used separately making the phrase a merism that indicates everything in its totality. Interestingly, the noun shamayim (שָּׁמַיִם), prefixed with “the” (הַ), is plural indicating that there are two heavens. I don't know why the King James translators missed that.
 
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rossh

Well-known member
Yes, it means what was said using English. ( of course )

Using the KJV we read: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth.
Using the YLT we read: "In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and Earth --"
Using the HNV we read: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the eretz."

Notice the differences in interpretation. Even so, all of them agree that God was involved and in Hebrew, the sentence is comprised of seven words.

The use of exactly seven words is important signifying completeness or perfection. [ Reference: Christianity.com ]

The seven words are:

- In beginning (בְּרֵאשִׁית )

- created (בָּרָא )

- God –Elohim (אֱלֹהִים)

- Object marker (אֵת )

- The heaven(s) ( הַשָּׁמַיִם )

- And + marker (וְאֵת )

- The earth ( הָאָֽרֶץ )

The full sentence reads from right to left :

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

The word translated as “In beginning” does not refer to an event that transpired in an instant. It is a noun in the absolute state as it carries the same meaning as a noun in English. It is a feminine noun indicating the first phase of a project as it is used in Genesis 10:10 or a prologue is another apt translation or it can mean an element in the course of events as also used in Isaiah 45:10.

The second word in the sentence translated as “created” is the word bara (בָּרָא). The word is in the “Qal Perfect” form and it also represents a completed action. It is a masculine singular word, meaning he who causes or performs the action, and bara carries the concept of creating or making something new. Again the complete action is stated, in Hebrew, and this indicator is in addition to the use of exactly seven words.

The third word translated as God ( אֱלֹהִים ) or Elohim, is a plural, masculine noun, and it is the subject of a singular verb. The suffix (ים) makes the noun masculine plural.

The Hebrew phrase translated as “the heavens and the Earth” ( הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ ) uses words that are polar-like in meaning when used separately making the phrase a merism that indicates everything in its totality. Interestingly, the noun shamayim (שָּׁמַיִם), prefixed with “the” (הַ), is plural indicating that there are two heavens. I don't know why the King James translators missed that.
It means what was said 3000s year ago, when, the people back then knew NOTING AT ALL ABOUT TODAY'S PHYSIC'S !!!! It is very important to appreciate that Moses, who himself was educated in the Egyptian's schooling ( being the son of Pharaoh's Daughter, per se ) knew nothing of today's sciences as such.... So, when God had Moses write the first 5 Books of His Word God had to tone down all the scientific issues, which were of course many...
 

inertia

Super Member
It means what was said 3000s year ago, when, the people back then knew NOTING AT ALL ABOUT TODAY'S PHYSIC'S !!!! It is very important to appreciate that Moses, who himself was educated in the Egyptian's schooling ( being the son of Pharaoh's Daughter, per se ) knew nothing of today's sciences as such.... So, when God had Moses write the first 5 Books of His Word God had to tone down all the scientific issues, which were of course many...

Even more for this time period, English translations require verb tense but biblical Hebrew doesn't have verb tense in its grammatical structure.

Translation takes additional skill and time because biblical Hebrew had a much smaller vocabulary for communication. For instance, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible in 1894 listed 8,674 words within the Hebrew and Chaldee languages, and the number of root words in biblical Hebrew from the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament is about 2,252 [1]. When compared to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, which defines 160,000 words in the English language [2], this numerical illustration provides just one point in the understanding of the paradigm translators regularly put themselves through.

Paraphrasing astrophysicist Fang Li Zhi: As mankind starts to understand and hopefully gain wisdom in experience, questions that were once considered a topic of theology such as the creation of the universe, are now an active area of research in physics. [3] As exciting as this sounds, I don't think that we will ever come to a place where we can know everything, but we will keep trying.

The Universe.JPG

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[1] R.L. Harris, et al., "Theological Word Book of the Old Testament",(Chicago, Illinois: Moody Press, 1980)
[2] "Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary", 10th ed., (Springfield, Massachusetts: Merriam-Webster, Inc., An Encyclopedia Britannica Company, 1999)
[3] Fang Li Zhi and Li Shu Zian, "Creation of the Universe", trans. T. Kaing (Singapore: World Scientific, 1989), 173
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Genesis 1:1-3 – Is the passage a sequence of events or a summary?
_______________________________________________________________________

“How could there be light on day one when the sun is not created until day four?” [1]

Biblically, the first creation day was set in motion with God saying “Let there be light”. Here, the time between God’s command, and created light that propagates to the atmosphere is unstated. It may have gradually increased in radiance or it may have arrived at its maximum level of intensity. What remains is stated in verse five where night coexists with the day.

View attachment 1280
Day and night simultaneously

Nevertheless, the light from celestial objects was not introduced until the fourth creation day (Genesis 1:14), with God saying “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky…”. Here is where light from celestial objects finally provided the energy required to view night and day on the surface of the Earth. Earlier in the narrative Genesis 1:2 tells us that at one time the earth was in a state of darkness and covered in deep water. This is consistent with Job 38:9 that discusses the foundations of the earth, stating: “...when I made the storm clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band…” The deep-water description is also consistent with a relatively recent discovery in the Australian outback.

The answer to the question is clear. Our host star, the sun, was created in the heavens as outlined in Genesis 1:1. Its light did not penetrate the storm clouds until the fourth creation day.

While this conclusion relies on the traditional interpretation of Genesis as it relates to successive passages, two other mainline interpretations are commonly discussed [2]. The traditional interpretation appeals to a syntactic linkage between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 via the key term “the earth” linking backward to Genesis 1:1. The narrative structure of Genesis 1:1-2 also uses the Hebrew perfect tense referring to an antecedent event. Theologically, this interpretation contends for the absolute sovereignty of the monotheistic God. Namely, the true God that rules everything and contrasts itself with ancient Near Eastern narratives where gods are born and there are conflicts between deities.

Another interpretation assumes that Genesis 1:1 is simply a subordinate clause written as: “In the beginning, when God created the heaven and the earth, the earth was without form…” and this interpretation is fading after receiving many credible refutations [3]. A third mainstream interpretation is the summary view and it has a lot of support [4]. Here the expression “the heavens and the earth” describes an organized universe and does not view verse 1:2 as an unorganized state, and Genesis 1:1 is read as a summary statement describing the events of verses 2 through 31. The summary interpretation provides a sense of the expression ‘the heavens and the earth’ that includes the concept of an organization. Difficulties occur when trying to make the distinction between the sense of the expression from its referent. In Genesis 2:1 the expression “all the host of them”, for example, refers not only to celestial bodies but the birds, plants, and animals. Here the hosts are distinguished and include inhabitants, therefore, in this light, the context of the compound expression “the heavens and the earth” designates two spatial regions. If one specifies “organized” as a finished state, as the universe looks now, a tension is created with 2:1 because the passage states that the heavens and the earth were finished. This implies a process where the heavens and the earth were in flux. A once ardent supporter of the summary interpretation, Waltke, no longer supports the organized universe claim.



[1] John H. Walton, The Lost World of Genesis One; Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate, (Downers Grove, IL: (InterVarsity Press, 2009), P. 56
[2] Vern S.Poythress, Genesis 1:1 Is the first event, not a summary, WTJ 79 (2017): 97 -121, last accessed online on 6/5/2021
[3] Collins, Genesis 1–4, 50–52
[4] Waltke, “Part III.” Genesis, 58-59
When the texts point out that the earth became "void and formless", they are referring to the destruction of the earth. The first light sounds like the so-called "Big Bang" which probably produced a lot of light, no?
 

inertia

Super Member
When the texts point out that the earth became "void and formless", they are referring to the destruction of the earth.

No. In context, Genesis 1:2 is depicting the earth before continents emerged.

From my notes:

Why were the Hebrew words tohu and bohu translated as "formless and void"? :unsure:

It was developed through a historical chain of translation starting with the Septuagint. Broadly characterized, there are two translation styles: word-for-word or meaning-for-meaning. Factually, translations are usually mixtures of both styles. In the Septuagint, tohu and bohu are translated as "unseen and unformed".

Unseen - because much of the land was covered in water
Unformed - because it was not completed (yet) for human habitation

The first light sounds like the so-called "Big Bang" which probably produced a lot of light, no?

That depends on when photons could propagate during its formation. A lot had occurred before the foundations of our solar system began.

Biblically:

The Hebrew word translated into English as "created" is "bara". It was initially used in Genesis 1:1 before Genesis 1:3. Its primary definition is: "bringing into existence something new, something that did not exist before" and this specific word is used in Genesis 1:1; 2:3; 2:4; Psalm 148:5; Isaiah 40:26; 42:5; 45:18.
 
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