How did it come to this...?

tbeachhead

Well-known member
I see it taught that prophecy is no longer for today, that there is no inspired revelation outside of God's printed and translated word...

...and yet...the confusion concerning the term "sovereignty" has forced the "teacher" to adopt the fatalistic notion that the only real, infallible, indisputable, inspired revelation of the Will of god in our daily life is in the circumstances we face...for which we have no recourse but to put up with them, accept them, and "trust" that this that we are calling "faith" might please the inscrutable, unknowable, immovable god...

...or not.

Is it not by far better to take God at His Word, and KNOW the the circumstances WILL change according to the prayers we pray, because HE willed that we change our circumstances through prayer...every time, and that this change is God's WILL for our life, not the suffering that the circumstances enforce. We're still and only seeking the city whose builder and maker is God...before our circumstances change, we have to change our search engine.
 

Mikey1967

Member
I find it sad and really a sign of the times that so many deny the Word of God. Rather than allow the Truth to change our circumstances, we use our circumstances to redefine the Word of God. Even to the extent that when the Scriptures are given to support the power of God in the Believer, they either deny it or simply ignore what is presented to them as if you never posted it.

It is kind of like:
Cessationist - God is not doing miracles anymore.
Believer - Yes He is, here is Scripture 1, 2, 3
Cessationist - I never said God cannot do miracles, God can do it if He wills
Believer - Here is the Scripture showing that it is His will
Cessationist - I have never seen it so it is not happening
Believer - Here is the Scriptures that say you must believe in order to see it, you just simply don't
Cessationist - God is not doing miracles anymore.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
I find it sad and really a sign of the times that so many deny the Word of God. Rather than allow the Truth to change our circumstances, we use our circumstances to redefine the Word of God. Even to the extent that when the Scriptures are given to support the power of God in the Believer, they either deny it or simply ignore what is presented to them as if you never posted it.

It is kind of like:
Cessationist - God is not doing miracles anymore.
Believer - Yes He is, here is Scripture 1, 2, 3
Cessationist - I never said God cannot do miracles, God can do it if He wills
Believer - Here is the Scripture showing that it is His will
Cessationist - I have never seen it so it is not happening
Believer - Here is the Scriptures that say you must believe in order to see it, you just simply don't
Cessationist - God is not doing miracles anymore.
The scripture says they are blessed who have not seen and yet believe!

The heroes of Hebrews 11 died believing...yet never seeing because the seeing was set for our day!

Yet, in defense of those who are doubtful because of their accustomed inexperience: Jesus spoke of a time where miracles would not be seen. He did. He said, "Work while you have the light. The night is coming where NO MAN CAN WORK." That night came, and that darkness has discouraged many. I awoke when I read Isaiah 60, and God told ME to "...arise and shine for my light had come..." It's time for Paul's exhortation to fall on us all: "Awake oh sleeper. and rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Surely darkness has covered the people and deep darkness the nations.
 
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RiJoRi

Well-known member
I think the cessationists are grumpy about the abuse of the "showy" gifts - the ones that can be used to say "Look at ME!!" I can't see them complaining about gifts of service, teaching, encouragement, giving, leading, and showing mercy. (Rom. 12)
I can't even see them complaining about a Nicky Cruz, who was delivered from drugs and gangs to a new life in Christ.

But when a "prophet" stands up in a church and proclaims in the Name of the Lord that "a plane is going to crash through the roof of this church soon", what's to be done? ( My wife witnessed this false prophecy some 50+ years ago.) BTW, that church never had a plane crash through, despite being only a few miles from an airport.

And there are "prophets" who have people hanging on their every word - studying those words more than they do the Bible! Should there be a "prophet licensing agency"? (I speak facetiously.)

It's easy to ask questions; a lot harder to answer them...

--Rich
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
As usual, the WOFists takes things to an extreme. Then they set up Straw Man and beat it in to submission. The Truth is God does miracles in his timing if he chooses to. God's miracles are meant to glorify him. If those miracles do come and benefit us, they were allowed to occur by a sovereign God.

Regarding Prophecies, Christ is our final prophet. He is the only one who speaks of the future knowing it will happen every time.

I have read and heard many false prophecies by WoF Prophets... It's an addiction for them...

Making a statement that comes true does not make one a prophet... If that were the case, I'm a part-time prophet too... The 2016 Cubs would be just one of my predictions... Mine came when they were down three games to one... I knew years before a friend passed away that I was going to lead his ministry. I wasn't even involved with it at the time... Having said both of those experiences does not make me a prophet...
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
"Making a statement that comes true does not make one a prophet..."
True. That's why the Children of Israel were given the Prophet-Tests in Deuteronomy 13 and 18.

--Rich
 

SPOKENWORD

Well-known member
As usual, the WOFists takes things to an extreme. Then they set up Straw Man and beat it in to submission. The Truth is God does miracles in his timing if he chooses to. God's miracles are meant to glorify him. If those miracles do come and benefit us, they were allowed to occur by a sovereign God.

Regarding Prophecies, Christ is our final prophet. He is the only one who speaks of the future knowing it will happen every time.

I have read and heard many false prophecies by WoF Prophets... It's an addiction for them...

Making a statement that comes true does not make one a prophet... If that were the case, I'm a part-time prophet too... The 2016 Cubs would be just one of my predictions... Mine came when they were down three games to one... I knew years before a friend passed away that I was going to lead his ministry. I wasn't even involved with it at the time... Having said both of those experiences does not make me a prophet...
Right and tongues have ceased also.
 

Mikey1967

Member
As usual, the WOFists takes things to an extreme. Then they set up Straw Man and beat it in to submission. The Truth is God does miracles in his timing if he chooses to. God's miracles are meant to glorify him. If those miracles do come and benefit us, they were allowed to occur by a sovereign God.
First, I am not WoF. Second, this is not a strawman but an example of pointing out bad exegesis. God does not do miracles to bring glory to Himself, He has all glory. He heals because He is love, He loves us...imagine that as a motive. And we are to demonstrate the Kingdom just as Christ did. The Kingdom has no sickness. "If" is your problem. All that He said to do is conditioned on "belief." This is the hangup for most who won't realize they do not believe and are getting the results of their unbelief. In their pride, they cannot fathom the idea that THEY could be accused of not believing. Instead, they abuse the "sovereignty" of God as an excuse to continue in their unbelief, insulating themselves from ever being set free from this stronghold and start believing. They to protect themselves, they become "heresy hunters" thinking that they are doing something for God but in reality have come against Him and are attempting to stop what He instituted, all so they can feel better about their unbelief. Selah.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
First, I am not WoF. Second, this is not a strawman but an example of pointing out bad exegesis. God does not do miracles to bring glory to Himself, He has all glory. He heals because He is love, He loves us...imagine that as a motive. And we are to demonstrate the Kingdom just as Christ did. The Kingdom has no sickness. "If" is your problem. All that He said to do is conditioned on "belief." This is the hangup for most who won't realize they do not believe and are getting the results of their unbelief. In their pride, they cannot fathom the idea that THEY could be accused of not believing. Instead, they abuse the "sovereignty" of God as an excuse to continue in their unbelief, insulating themselves from ever being set free from this stronghold and start believing. They to protect themselves, they become "heresy hunters" thinking that they are doing something for God but in reality have come against Him and are attempting to stop what He instituted, all so they can feel better about their unbelief. Selah.
LOL's Mikey... I have experienced many blessings from YHWH... Too many to list here. Yet, I rely on His Sovereignty rather than my faith. Since you claim to have raised the dead, I still have the need for a ring finger... Let your love and faith flow... Have at it...
 

Mikey1967

Member
LOL's Mikey... I have experienced many blessings from YHWH... Too many to list here. Yet, I rely on His Sovereignty rather than my faith. Since you claim to have raised the dead, I still have the need for a ring finger... Let your love and faith flow... Have at it...
You won't receive anything. Just like the Pharasees challenged "heal thyself" or the Jews seeking a sign, or Satan challenging Jesus "if you are the Son of God." All were refused. You heart is cannot receive. Even your statement shows where your heart is. My claim, not a claim, a reality. But their desire for healing was genuine. I believe that even if your finger was restored, your answer would be "it must have been God's will." I really understand Jesus calling this a faithless generation. But I digress, you won't understand what I am saying and will simply claim that I just couldn't.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
You won't receive anything. Just like the Pharasees challenged "heal thyself" or the Jews seeking a sign, or Satan challenging Jesus "if you are the Son of God." All were refused. You heart is cannot receive. Even your statement shows where your heart is. My claim, not a claim, a reality. But their desire for healing was genuine. I believe that even if your finger was restored, your answer would be "it must have been God's will." I really understand Jesus calling this a faithless generation. But I digress, you won't understand what I am saying and will simply claim that I just couldn't.
Mikey, You went and got an education. It doesn't seem to have helped. You are just like the pig who got cleaned up and went back to the mud and the dog who returned to his vomit. Now You say you aren't WOF. Yet you are using the same arguments and devices that they use. "Pharisees" and "Faithless"... Sir, you may not be a five-point WOFer, but you are right there with them in Spirit... It is unfortunate. There was hope that you had come to your senses... Vomit and mud...

Faith is an assurance of our relationship with Christ. Faith is not a power that makes God respond like and obedient dog.
Even your mentor Beachie got sick and needed medical attention. Where was his faith??
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Mikey, You went and got an education. It doesn't seem to have helped. You are just like the pig who got cleaned up and went back to the mud and the dog who returned to his vomit. Now You say you aren't WOF. Yet you are using the same arguments and devices that they use. "Pharisees" and "Faithless"... Sir, you may not be a five-point WOFer, but you are right there with them in Spirit... It is unfortunate. There was hope that you had come to your senses... Vomit and mud...

Faith is an assurance of our relationship with Christ. Faith is not a power that makes God respond like and obedient dog.
Even your mentor Beachie got sick and needed medical attention. Where was his faith??
No, Joe. Faith is as a seed that, planted in good soil, grows of its own, and produces fruit. Faith that is placed on a shelf to spit at rarely produces anything but...well...what you just described here. That's all you can see for the sad sputum you spew.
 

Mikey1967

Member
Mikey, You went and got an education. It doesn't seem to have helped. You are just like the pig who got cleaned up and went back to the mud and the dog who returned to his vomit. Now You say you aren't WOF. Yet you are using the same arguments and devices that they use. "Pharisees" and "Faithless"... Sir, you may not be a five-point WOFer, but you are right there with them in Spirit... It is unfortunate. There was hope that you had come to your senses... Vomit and mud...

Faith is an assurance of our relationship with Christ. Faith is not a power that makes God respond like and obedient dog.
Even your mentor Beachie got sick and needed medical attention. Where was his faith??
Perhaps I have been grounded in Truth and not a cessationist bias? But understand, that is not WoF, that is bible. That is Scripture. You just don't like it when someone calls you out on your faithlessness. By the way, faith does not move God, we respond to God in faith. Cessationist seem to forget that. Faith is simply putting action to what you have chosen to believe. Belief is a choice. Just as you make every time you reject what is plainly written. In this case, as with most excuses by cessationist, your experience is your God. Rather than believe the Scriptures and be transformed, you elevate your experience above the Word of God and then claim the results of your faithlessness as proof. Unfortunately, the reality is that you don't believe and then seek out anyone that does, trying to stop them from believing. You become the enemy of God, all while believing you are doing something for Him. Cessationist abuse the sovereignty of God and use it like a jumprope. Inconsistency and contradiction is the theology of a cessationist. To believe what you claim, you must disregard and deny Scripture. Why even pray? If God is simply going to do what He wants regardless, why pray at all? If you believe what you claim and it is only His fickle will, what dare you to pray for anyone or anything, you might speak against His will? The foolishness of this kind of theology is astounding. No sir, this is not WoF, this is just Believers believing Him. For we know our Father. We know His character and love. Apparently you only know about Him because what you claim is NOT Him.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Perhaps I have been grounded in Truth and not a cessationist bias? But understand, that is not WoF, that is bible. That is Scripture. You just don't like it when someone calls you out on your faithlessness. By the way, faith does not move God, we respond to God in faith. Cessationist seem to forget that. Faith is simply putting action to what you have chosen to believe. Belief is a choice. Just as you make every time you reject what is plainly written. In this case, as with most excuses by cessationist, your experience is your God. Rather than believe the Scriptures and be transformed, you elevate your experience above the Word of God and then claim the results of your faithlessness as proof. Unfortunately, the reality is that you don't believe and then seek out anyone that does, trying to stop them from believing. You become the enemy of God, all while believing you are doing something for Him. Cessationist abuse the sovereignty of God and use it like a jumprope. Inconsistency and contradiction is the theology of a cessationist. To believe what you claim, you must disregard and deny Scripture. Why even pray? If God is simply going to do what He wants regardless, why pray at all? If you believe what you claim and it is only His fickle will, what dare you to pray for anyone or anything, you might speak against His will? The foolishness of this kind of theology is astounding. No sir, this is not WoF, this is just Believers believing Him. For we know our Father. We know His character and love. Apparently you only know about Him because what you claim is NOT Him.

No... I am not a Cessationist. There are two errors that get lots of press here. Cessationism and anti-cessationism all the time... You have to have a straw man to attack... Were you here when I gave the testimony regarding my wife's cancer?? ... No you weren't... I laid hands on her nearly every night. She is now in remission for numerous years (four or five). I still lay hands on her on a weekly or so basis... Mikey, you got your butt whipped theologically for years here. You leave, get a degree, and now you think you have all of the answers... Vomit and Mud. dude... Vomit and Mud...
 
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