How do athiests know if something is true or not?

Bob1

Well-known member
Scenario.... Its 500 years ago.

Someone involved with time travel comes from the future tells the town folk about radio waves.

They demand he demonstrate its true or be burned at the stake.

It could not be objectively demonstrated as they demanded....

Atheists are trapped way back in time.

Therefore.. Its impossible to demonstrate what you demand on your terms.

God transcends time and space. He is always being in the past, present, and future simultaneously.

On the other hand..

One atheist is like a speck of dust made invisible in the universe, demanding that God reveal Himself to him before he will believe (on his own terms)..

Everyone who has come to grips with faith leaves you looking like a jack ass. All the while, you think you are making them look like jackasses.

Irony never rusts....
You've yet to provide any objective evidence a deity exists... much less that said deity exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously (and if THAT is true, free will goes out the window).

Faith is not a virtue. There is nothing "virtuous" about believing something for which there is no objective evidence. This can easily be illustrated: I tell you purple unicorns exist. Do you believe me? Do you demand OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE before you'll accept my claim? It's no different when it comes to the topic of deities. Faith is a synonym for gullible.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
You've yet to provide any objective evidence a deity exists... much less that said deity exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously (and if THAT is true, free will goes out the window).

Faith is not a virtue. There is nothing "virtuous" about believing something for which there is no objective evidence. This can easily be illustrated: I tell you purple unicorns exist. Do you believe me? Do you demand OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE before you'll accept my claim? It's no different when it comes to the topic of deities. Faith is a synonym for gullible.
Prove something that will be inevitable?

Why?


"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44

God draws you in your private thinking with thoughts to consider. You do not even know its not your own thought when it happens. That gives you total freedom to refuse, or accept. He works in your thought process to consider what it is He wishes to reveal to yourself.

Well then? In the mean time... Have a good day.

Avoid blatant evil, be moral, and live out your life of vapor till it all ends.

And, leave Christians alone. What are you wasting time for? You only have finite time and then you are no more. Why waste time if what you believe is true? To us that appears to be retarded. Its like you want us to feel the emptiness you must feel about your existence. Why should we join you? Give me one GOOD reason why we should be won over to your way?

Give is some objective evidence that you have the way to live. I must warn you. To us you appear to be dead. Physically alive. Then nothing afterwards. Give us objective evidence? You can not. Nihilism has no appeal to me.

Have a good day.. (or, twenty hours if that's all whats left for you.)

Whatever.
 

sbell

Active member
There is nothing "virtuous" about believing something for which there is no objective evidence.
Maybe you mean something by different by objective evidence, but in my experience, most people asking for objective evidence are actually asking for scientific evidence. Assuming there is a god, and I know for you it's a big assumption, but just as a thought experiment, if there was a god, is it a possibility that he can't be measured by any of our means of measurement. What I mean is this... the tools of science are great for measuring things in the universe, but wholly inadequate for measuring things outside of the universe. IF there is a god who created the universe, by definition, it would have to be outside of the universe. So, if the tools we have only allow us to measure the thing inside of the universe, what you're requiring to determine whether the god exists or not will never be able to answer the question. But maybe you mean something else by objective evidence.

What would be sufficient evidence?

To your point of needing evidence for a god, if the god is the kind who is said to be involved in the affairs of the universe, so much so that his spirit is active in the world, and he answers prayers, then the lack of evidence may be a very strong indicator of that type of god doesn't exist.

This can easily be illustrated: I tell you purple unicorns exist. Do you believe me? Do you demand OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE before you'll accept my claim?
I'm assuming you're a naturalist.
If so, can you tell me, do you believe purple unicorns exist?
I'm not you should necessarily have a problem with the existence of purple unicorns. The universe has billions and billions of planets. From a naturalistic worldview, life isn't particularly special, and given the number of planets, perhaps life exists on another planet, and that life has evolved where purple unicorns are a commonality.
I'm not saying they exist, but does your worldview allow for the existence of purple unicorns?
Do you believe there is life on other planets?
If so, in light of your demand for objective evidence before you believe something, how are you able to believe there is life on other planets with out any objective evidence to support it?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
You've yet to provide any objective evidence a deity exists... much less that said deity exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously (and if THAT is true, free will goes out the window).
Both just happened by chance and luck of certain choice molecules forming and being in the right place at the right moment...

web-evolution-alamy.jpg





xA-verge-and-crownwheel-escapement_combined.jpg.pagespeed.ic.AnMjYtZ0nv.webp
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Prove something that will be inevitable?

Why?


"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44

God draws you in your private thinking with thoughts to consider. You do not even know its not your own thought when it happens. That gives you total freedom to refuse, or accept. He works in your thought process to consider what it is He wishes to reveal to yourself.

Well then? In the mean time... Have a good day.

Avoid blatant evil, be moral, and live out your life of vapor till it all ends.

And, leave Christians alone. What are you wasting time for? You only have finite time and then you are no more. Why waste time if what you believe is true? To us that appears to be retarded. Its like you want us to feel the emptiness you must feel about your existence. Why should we join you? Give me one GOOD reason why we should be won over to your way?

Give is some objective evidence that you have the way to live. I must warn you. To us you appear to be dead. Physically alive. Then nothing afterwards. Give us objective evidence? You can not. Nihilism has no appeal to me.

Have a good day.. (or, twenty hours if that's all whats left for you.)

Whatever.
Nothing you presented amounts to objective evidence.

As far as leaving Christians alone goes... they should leave other people alone. They should stop trying to inject their beliefs into society and the government.
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Maybe you mean something by different by objective evidence, but in my experience, most people asking for objective evidence are actually asking for scientific evidence. Assuming there is a god, and I know for you it's a big assumption, but just as a thought experiment, if there was a god, is it a possibility that he can't be measured by any of our means of measurement. What I mean is this... the tools of science are great for measuring things in the universe, but wholly inadequate for measuring things outside of the universe. IF there is a god who created the universe, by definition, it would have to be outside of the universe. So, if the tools we have only allow us to measure the thing inside of the universe, what you're requiring to determine whether the god exists or not will never be able to answer the question. But maybe you mean something else by objective evidence.

What would be sufficient evidence?

To your point of needing evidence for a god, if the god is the kind who is said to be involved in the affairs of the universe, so much so that his spirit is active in the world, and he answers prayers, then the lack of evidence may be a very strong indicator of that type of god doesn't exist.


I'm assuming you're a naturalist.
If so, can you tell me, do you believe purple unicorns exist?
I'm not you should necessarily have a problem with the existence of purple unicorns. The universe has billions and billions of planets. From a naturalistic worldview, life isn't particularly special, and given the number of planets, perhaps life exists on another planet, and that life has evolved where purple unicorns are a commonality.
I'm not saying they exist, but does your worldview allow for the existence of purple unicorns?
Do you believe there is life on other planets?
If so, in light of your demand for objective evidence before you believe something, how are you able to believe there is life on other planets with out any objective evidence to support it?
Regarding objective evidence:

How about the deity showing up "in person"... or communicating the exact same message to everyone in the world at the same time so that there are no mistakes or confusion?

Regarding purple unicorns:
I don't hold a belief in purple unicorns... or unicorns of any color for that matter. I don't say it's impossible that unicorns exist somewhere in the universe... but without objective evidence for their existence I'm not going to take the "they exist" position. It's the same for deities.
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Both just happened by chance and luck of certain choice molecules forming and being in the right place at the right moment...

web-evolution-alamy.jpg





xA-verge-and-crownwheel-escapement_combined.jpg.pagespeed.ic.AnMjYtZ0nv.webp
This isn't evidence for intelligent design. Living organisms can evolve.
.. non-living items can't.

And on that note; if you want to argue that the universe is too complex to have occured naturally... that it must have had a creator... then, WHO created the creator??? The creator would be more complex than the creator, right? Thus the creator couldn't have happened by chance if the universe itself is too complicated to have happened by chance. So then, who created the creator?
 

sbell

Active member
Regarding objective evidence:

How about the deity showing up "in person"... or communicating the exact same message to everyone in the world at the same time so that there are no mistakes or confusion?
That would great. I would love that too. However, this being not showing up doesn't prove one way or another if this being exists. Maybe the being created everything and is indifferent to the world and does care about being known by you. Now, if the being is a loving being who wants to be in a relationship with you, then absolutely showing up and communicating with you would make the most since. I'm not arguing for that sort of being. I don't think there's a lot of evidence for that sort of being.
Regarding purple unicorns:
I don't hold a belief in purple unicorns... or unicorns of any color for that matter. I don't say it's impossible that unicorns exist somewhere in the universe... but without objective evidence for their existence I'm not going to take the "they exist" position. It's the same for deities.
Do you hold a belief regarding life existing in any form somewhere else in the universe, or without objective evidence are you taking the "it doesn't exist anywhere else" position?
 

Bob1

Well-known member
That would great. I would love that too. However, this being not showing up doesn't prove one way or another if this being exists. Maybe the being created everything and is indifferent to the world and does care about being known by you. Now, if the being is a loving being who wants to be in a relationship with you, then absolutely showing up and communicating with you would make the most since. I'm not arguing for that sort of being. I don't think there's a lot of evidence for that sort of being.

Do you hold a belief regarding life existing in any form somewhere else in the universe, or without objective evidence are you taking the "it doesn't exist anywhere else" position?
I basically agree with your first paragraph. But that still leaves us in the situation of no objective evidence for a deity.

My views on life existing in any form somewhere else in the universe are exactly the same as my views on unicorns (of any color): without strong, objective evidence of existence I see no reason to believe or conclude that it exists. Same goes for Bigfoot, the yeti, etc.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
I assure you, I am not a closet christian.
I have found no evidence for god before, during or after my christian walk. None.
It actually takes more courage to walk away from christianity - intellectual honesty is difficult to trump faith unless one has courage.
There you go. Your non-christian walk in your own words. You admit you were NOT walking with The LORD.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
You act too stupid sometimes for some effect you don't produce.

The bible is a book of the supernatural musings of an ancient people too backwards to have a positive influence on contemporary reality.
Your musings are amusing. .and backwards.
You have no influence on contemporary reality.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Nothing you presented amounts to objective evidence.

As far as leaving Christians alone goes... they should leave other people alone. They should stop trying to inject their beliefs into society and the government.
Sir you just formed out from matter that just so happened to exist. If I was young I would be stunned by how you think. Right now I have realized ou live in a nonsense world that you love to gain attention with. To think life forms could have just formed with the same kind of biological schematic "by chance?" No designer? Is idiocy/ But? You only want attention, so you don't really care as long as you can frustrate others with your illogical dogmatism. You become the other side of the coin of the superstitious religious who speak of God but do not know him...

Come on. Your finite minutes are running out. Do something useful with your time. As for me? I know I have eternal life. And, it will be demonstrated to you someday. Hopefully, by personal experience. Come on. Stop thinking like a child. "There is no God!" Just look all around you! All the animals in the yard... the grass... the big city buildings? Then the pigeons..

It just all fell in place by chance. How wise you are.

Demonstrate objectively how the hearts of thousands of creatures all so happened to form spontaneously. Then show about the lungs... the bowels... livers, etc. Then I will believe their was no Designer. Until then I see you as deluded person.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
This isn't evidence for intelligent design. Living organisms can evolve.
.. non-living items can't.
How did non living become LIVING? Impossible. Having thoughts and feelings?????????

Curious. How old are you?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
This question puts on display the profound ignorance of the methodologies for belief in atheism.
So your problem here isn't that I asked the question but that I expressed a lack of knowledge of your beliefs?
You sound like one of the cancel culture crew.

We are atheists because we wanted to know about the truth of the lack of God and we simply asked the lack of God whether it was true or not.
This sounds like cognitive dissonance.
Why would you ask nothing if nothing existed?




So we first had to have enough faith that a lack of God existed to sit down and sincerely ask whether that lack of God was true or not, and for the last 45 years I have been experiencing that lack of God with such profound surety that I know that the only way to show you that the lack of God exists is for you to do the work and sincerely ask for yourself.
Reads to me that you were simply taking LSD or some other drugs, like pcp, meth, and didn't know where to stop.


When that happens, you only become open to the grace of the lack of God's existence. Even then you cannot yourself come to the knowledge of the lack of God.
I'm not the one who needs to know nothing. But you're definitely making it clear that nothing is all you want.

It's not an intellectual endeavor.
Obviously. Did the combination of LSD, pcp, and coke?

You can come the it.
Apparently. Lack of understanding, no mental health, and copious drug use.


It is an internal personal experience that comes to you.
Yeah, you see, I don't want to live a life you describe. It sounds useless, lacking knowledge, and humanity.




The lack of the existence of God must choose you by its grace to reveal itself - and it absolutely will.
Ah, ignorance. Not just the lack of knowledge, but the willful and deliberate choice to reject knowledge.

Where I come from we call that stupid. So, by the sound of this post of yours, you're just stupid.


If you ask sincerely you are then chosen and you will be visited by the conviction of the lack of God's holy ghost. Then you will be seated with the surety of the lack of God that I have experienced for myself going on 45+ years. But you have to do the work.

Your call, your life....

Naw.... that's stupid.... never mind.
And yet you've actually chosen to be stupid.

Thanks. I'll pass.
I like relationships
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
This isn't evidence for intelligent design. Living organisms can evolve.
.. non-living items can't.

And on that note; if you want to argue that the universe is too complex to have occured naturally... that it must have had a creator... then, WHO created the creator??? The creator would be more complex than the creator, right? Thus the creator couldn't have happened by chance if the universe itself is too complicated to have happened by chance. So then, who created the creator?
Bob? When you sit on the toilet and make a bowel movement? What takes place in function all happened by chance? By chance also for the many thousands of variety of animals that have bowels and colons? They all formed independently of each other in similar fashion by CHANCE?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
This sounds like cognitive dissonance.
Why would you ask nothing if nothing existed?


The Lord will have many saved souls who were inclined just like them, to shame them and leave them to be without excuse.

If Jesus could not win all souls? Are we to be better than He?
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Sir you just formed out from matter that just so happened to exist. If I was young I would be stunned by how you think. Right now I have realized ou live in a nonsense world that you love to gain attention with. To think life forms could have just formed with the same kind of biological schematic "by chance?" No designer? Is idiocy/ But? You only want attention, so you don't really care as long as you can frustrate others with your illogical dogmatism. You become the other side of the coin of the superstitious religious who speak of God but do not know him...

Come on. Your finite minutes are running out. Do something useful with your time. As for me? I know I have eternal life. And, it will be demonstrated to you someday. Hopefully, by personal experience. Come on. Stop thinking like a child. "There is no God!" Just look all around you! All the animals in the yard... the grass... the big city buildings? Then the pigeons..

It just all fell in place by chance. How wise you are.

Demonstrate objectively how the hearts of thousands of creatures all so happened to form spontaneously. Then show about the lungs... the bowels... livers, etc. Then I will believe their was no Designer. Until then I see you as deluded person.
Let's see you produce objective evidence for a deity.
 

sbell

Active member
Let's see you produce objective evidence for a deity.
Is a novel objective evidence for an author?
Even if you never meet the author, is the novel enough evidence the author existed?
If yes, is it at least a possibility the universe is objective evidence for a deity?
 

Bob1

Well-known member
How did non living become LIVING? Impossible. Having thoughts and feelings?????????

Curious. How old are you?
I noticed you avoided my question.

If the universe is too complex to have happened by chance and required a creator... then WHO created the creator of the universe??? (A universe creator would have to be more complex than the universe, right? - thus such a being would itself require a creator if the less-complex-than-the-creator universe was too complex to happen by chance)

I will readily admit that I don't have all the answers as to how the universe originated. That said however, I see no objective evidence of any deity.
 
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