How do athiests know if something is true or not?

Bob1

Well-known member
Is a novel objective evidence for an author?
Even if you never meet the author, is the novel enough evidence the author existed?
If yes, is it at least a possibility the universe is objective evidence for a deity?
Your conclusions don't hold. We know EXACTLY how books are produced. We have plenty of books available for which we can objectively produce an actual living, breathing author. Not so with the universe. You are attempting an apples to oranges comparison.
 

sbell

Active member
Your conclusions don't hold. We know EXACTLY how books are produced. We have plenty of books available for which we can objectively produce an actual living, breathing author. Not so with the universe. You are attempting an apples to oranges comparison.
Ok, fair enough. Let's do another thought experiment.
Imagine you're on a hike, and you discover a very futuristic looking gadget with some sort of strange writing on it. You go to grab it and before you can touch it you it starts talking in a language you've never heard that doesn't sound human at all. You can't determine what it even is, and it appears to be alien made.
So, now we have something that we've never seen before, so we have no idea how it's made, and we only have this one object that we can study. Does your contention still stand?
Is the object we're holding objective evidence that someone or something created the object?
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Ok, fair enough. Let's do another thought experiment.
Imagine you're on a hike, and you discover a very futuristic looking gadget with some sort of strange writing on it. You go to grab it and before you can touch it you it starts talking in a language you've never heard that doesn't sound human at all. You can't determine what it even is, and it appears to be alien made.
So, now we have something that we've never seen before, so we have no idea how it's made, and we only have this one object that we can study. Does your contention still stand?
Is the object we're holding objective evidence that someone or something created the object?
Do you have such an object?
I would say it would require study.
But again, this isn't analogous to the universe. We don't have anything indicating that the universe is designed.
 

sbell

Active member
Do you have such an object?
This question is an indication you don’t want to engage in the line of reasoning, perhaps because you don’t like the implication of it. Just because I don’t have that object doesn’t mean you can’t imagine it. I can change the scenario to a remote tribe on an island with no contact with the outside world, and what they discover is a cell phone that has somehow appeared on their shores. For that tribe, it is the only phone that exists, and they have no idea how it was created. From their perspective, would the phone itself be empirical evidence that a phone creator exists?

If you want to be honest you can at least say yes, that phone is empirical evidence, or no it is not, then explain why you think so.

As to your question, why yes, I do have such an object. It’s called the universe. But you’ve removed it from even being discussed as empirical evidence because of dogmatically held beliefs.
But again, this isn't analogous to the universe. We don't have anything indicating that the universe is designed.
Designoid objects look designed, so much so that some people- probably, alas, most people - think that they are designed. -Richard Dawkins

Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning. -Richard Dawkins

Biology is the study of complex things that appear to have been designed for a purpose. -Richard Dawkins


Now, I know Richard Dawkins goes on to explain how the appearance design is illusory, and can be explained through natural forces, but he’s at least honest enough to admit it has an appearance of design.

I argue that the appearance of design is a very strong indication that the universe is designed.
 

Bob1

Well-known member
This question is an indication you don’t want to engage in the line of reasoning, perhaps because you don’t like the implication of it. Just because I don’t have that object doesn’t mean you can’t imagine it. I can change the scenario to a remote tribe on an island with no contact with the outside world, and what they discover is a cell phone that has somehow appeared on their shores. For that tribe, it is the only phone that exists, and they have no idea how it was created. From their perspective, would the phone itself be empirical evidence that a phone creator exists?

If you want to be honest you can at least say yes, that phone is empirical evidence, or no it is not, then explain why you think so.

As to your question, why yes, I do have such an object. It’s called the universe. But you’ve removed it from even being discussed as empirical evidence because of dogmatically held beliefs.

Designoid objects look designed, so much so that some people- probably, alas, most people - think that they are designed. -Richard Dawkins

Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning. -Richard Dawkins

Biology is the study of complex things that appear to have been designed for a purpose. -Richard Dawkins


Now, I know Richard Dawkins goes on to explain how the appearance design is illusory, and can be explained through natural forces, but he’s at least honest enough to admit it has an appearance of design.

I argue that the appearance of design is a very strong indication that the universe is designed.
Oh, I'm willing to engage. It's just that I don't design in the universe, much less a designer. If we were to find an "alien artifact" it would appear to be evidence of extraterrestrials. But it would have to be closely examined and verified... with other possibilities being ruled out over the course of analysis. Case in point, I watched a documentary about the yeti a while back. One piece of evidence that was examined was this conical "scalp" supposedly from a yeti. It was pretty old and kept at a monastery in Nepal. At first glance it did look intriguing... but, the researchers were able to extract a tissue sample and examine it for DNA. Turns out the "yeti scalp" was from a goat.
 

Algor

Active member
Oh, I'm willing to engage. It's just that I don't design in the universe, much less a designer. If we were to find an "alien artifact" it would appear to be evidence of extraterrestrials. But it would have to be closely examined and verified... with other possibilities being ruled out over the course of analysis. Case in point, I watched a documentary about the yeti a while back. One piece of evidence that was examined was this conical "scalp" supposedly from a yeti. It was pretty old and kept at a monastery in Nepal. At first glance it did look intriguing... but, the researchers were able to extract a tissue sample and examine it for DNA. Turns out the "yeti scalp" was from a goat.
Maybe Yetis are actually giant hornless bipedal goats.....
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Maybe Yetis are actually giant hornless bipedal goats.....
Got any objective evidence for that assessment?
Actually, from what I've heard some researchers think it might be mistaken bear sightings that gave rise to the idea of the Yeti.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
And still no objective evidence.
I don't think so. Its you who have no objective evidence,,, Its why you "object" so much. You have been left out.

You're out of the loop.

If God parted the Res Sea and you were there and walked through with dry feet? Would that be objective proof? Many refused to believe.

If someone terribly ill was healed instantly before your eyes? Would that be objective truth? Some found excuse to reject it.

If someone raised the dead of people you know were buried and gone? Would that be objective truth? Still, some rejected it as evidence.

You do not understand God's inner circle. What you ask for you would still find an excuse not to believe.

The Bible is filled with examples of people defying what a sane mind would have to honestly consider.

After all... Satan knows God is real. Beyond a doubt. And, not only does he reject God. He wants a fan club.



.
 

Bob1

Well-known member
I don't think so. Its you who have no objective evidence,,, Its why you "object" so much. You have been left out.

You're out of the loop.

If God parted the Res Sea and you were there and walked through with dry feet? Would that be objective proof? Many refused to believe.

If someone terribly ill was healed instantly before your eyes? Would that be objective truth? Some found excuse to reject it.

If someone raised the dead of people you know were buried and gone? Would that be objective truth? Still, some rejected it as evidence.

You do not understand God's inner circle. What you ask for you would still find an excuse not to believe.

The Bible is filled with examples of people defying what a sane mind would have to honestly consider.

After all... Satan knows God is real. Beyond a doubt. And, not only does he reject God. He wants a fan club.



.
Those would all be intriguing events, especially the parting of a sea. But I would have to witness them FIRSTHAND... not read or hear about them. And the medical ones (recovery from illness / resurrection) would have to be medically investigated (sometimes illness go into remission. The "resurrected" person would have to be verified as dead)
 

5wize

Well-known member
I don't think so. Its you who have no objective evidence,,, Its why you "object" so much. You have been left out.

You're out of the loop.

If God parted the Res Sea and you were there and walked through with dry feet? Would that be objective proof? Many refused to believe.

If someone terribly ill was healed instantly before your eyes? Would that be objective truth? Some found excuse to reject it.

If someone raised the dead of people you know were buried and gone? Would that be objective truth? Still, some rejected it as evidence.

You do not understand God's inner circle. What you ask for you would still find an excuse not to believe.

The Bible is filled with examples of people defying what a sane mind would have to honestly consider.

After all... Satan knows God is real. Beyond a doubt. And, not only does he reject God. He wants a fan club.



.
Whether some find excuses to reject those events even if witnessed is a different issue as to whether God instantiates enough of these events to build a ground swell of contemporary miracle witnessing that by weight would be undeniable. God is not even attempting to influence anybody by His silence and folded arms in contemporary events. There is a lot of low hanging fruit in human suffering and advancement He could play in today that would make it much harder for us to deny His presence, but as it is we rely on the dubious intentions and false agendas of past religious narratives. We see those play out today as well and need to be careful of them.

Not our fault. God can do a better job at "presence" like He supposedly used to without sacrificing free will and necessary consequence of direct action.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Those would all be intriguing events, especially the parting of a sea. But I would have to witness them FIRSTHAND... not read or hear about them. And the medical ones (recovery from illness / resurrection) would have to be medically investigated (sometimes illness go into remission. The "resurrected" person would have to be verified as dead)
You are going to miss out on a lot in life if you must be there to see it to believe it.

Besides... you missed the point again. If you were there to see the parting of the Red Sea? You could have ended up like many who rejected the evidence. That's why its on record. To show that your demand is meaningless when it comes to knowing God is real. For God is real. Some fail to gain this truth. Satan and his angels did the same thing.... Judas ate with the Lord. I'm not surprised about you.

I can show you that all mammal females have mammary glands. And, then you are going to tell me? That each species and breed developed the same biological schematic independently one from another? That's ludicrous.

But... you insist there was no designer, nor intelligent design involved. You know how dumb that makes you look in the face of the evidence?

Now... go give me some excuse, or rationalization. All female mammals have mammary glands. Just so happened to fall in place that way when all those lumps of matter got zapped by lightning.

You need God. To make you honest with yourself. Not religion. God.



........
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Whether some find excuses to reject those events even if witnessed is a different issue as to whether God instantiates enough of these events to build a ground swell of contemporary miracle witnessing that by weight would be undeniable. God is not even attempting to influence anybody by His silence and folded arms in contemporary events.
God tells us why... If you ever studied the Bible in a regenerate state? You just might begin to understand why.

Miracles were never used to give people faith. Miracles were given to strengthen the faith of those who already had faith (belief in God). The Bible has on record of Jesus healing people and the religious people wanting him dead for it.

You do not understand evil exists. Miracles will not make it go away.
 

5wize

Well-known member
God tells us why... If you ever studied the Bible in a regenerate state? You just might begin to understand why.
That's the portion I addressed with the "but as it is we rely on the dubious intentions and false agendas of past religious narratives. We see those play out today as well and need to be careful of them."

The Bible's origin is one of dubious intent. We need to be wary of it.
Miracles were never used to give people faith. Miracles were given to strengthen the faith of those who already had faith (belief in God). The Bible has on record of Jesus healing people and the religious people wanting him dead for it.
Of course the intent of a miracle is to do something other than instill faith. God instills faith without miracles every day, but we hear personal miracles change the faithless into the faithful all the time. It doesn't matter what the intent of a miracle is. It does not negate the need for explicit miracles in this day and age, miracles that could change the faithless into the faithful.
You do not understand evil exists. Miracles will not make it go away.
You don't understand I am not asking for evil to go away. I am asking for God's dispensation against it where appropriate, as he saw fit in the age of miracles, for the sake of His creation here and now.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
That's the portion I addressed with the "but as it is we rely on the dubious intentions and false agendas of past religious narratives. We see those play out today as well and need to be careful of them."
Are all news channels fake news?

Your argument goes like. Since CNN and MSNBC lie all the time, we should never trust any news broadcasting.

Not to mention... the lying stations were created to counter the few that will present truth.

You have not been able to sort it out objectively. Unless you become regenerate you never will have the power given to you to do so.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Are all news channels fake news?

Your argument goes like. Since CNN and MSNBC lie all the time, we should never trust any news broadcasting.

Not to mention... the lying stations were created to counter the few that will present truth.

You have not been able to sort it out objectively. Unless you become regenerate you never will have the power given to you to do so.
No, my argument goes like, "Look out for the anatomy of lies in all things recorded past or present." One such anatomy is supernatural events that happened with recorded regularity before, suddenly stop happening when those that recorded it are gone.
 
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