How do non-Catholics account for the miracles at Fatima?

Jerry_Fletcher

New Member
If you're not Catholic, what do you think really happened in Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900s, when 3 shepherd children claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary? I'm sure many claims of miracles within the Catholic church are easy to disregard, but this seems less so because tens of thousands of people showed up to see what was called the Miracle of the Sun, where the sun broke from it's orbit and spun and danced over the large crowd. Importantly, many in this crowd were non-believers, even reporters who came out to ridicule the anticipated miracle.

The only real reply I've seen to this is that it was the devil, but this seems like a pretty convenient opinion. It's perhaps the biggest miracle of the modern era, so I'm surprised more Christians aren't engaging this.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
If you're not Catholic, what do you think really happened in Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900s, when 3 shepherd children claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary? I'm sure many claims of miracles within the Catholic church are easy to disregard, but this seems less so because tens of thousands of people showed up to see what was called the Miracle of the Sun, where the sun broke from it's orbit and spun and danced over the large crowd. Importantly, many in this crowd were non-believers, even reporters who came out to ridicule the anticipated miracle.

The only real reply I've seen to this is that it was the devil, but this seems like a pretty convenient opinion. It's perhaps the biggest miracle of the modern era, so I'm surprised more Christians aren't engaging this.
See if you can find a copy of "The Cult of the Virgin: Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary" by E. Miller. Covers a lot of stuff. I haven't read it for a while, but I found it interesting. BTW, Mr. Miller uses "cult" in a different way - not like we refer to JWs or Mormons.

--Rich
 

Howie

Well-known member
If you're not Catholic, what do you think really happened in Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900s, when 3 shepherd children claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary? I'm sure many claims of miracles within the Catholic church are easy to disregard, but this seems less so because tens of thousands of people showed up to see what was called the Miracle of the Sun, where the sun broke from it's orbit and spun and danced over the large crowd. Importantly, many in this crowd were non-believers, even reporters who came out to ridicule the anticipated miracle.

The only real reply I've seen to this is that it was the devil, but this seems like a pretty convenient opinion. It's perhaps the biggest miracle of the modern era, so I'm surprised more Christians aren't engaging this.
Demonic activity.

In these last days, Jesus is the final word of God (Heb 1:1-2). I expect no more communication from God until the end of these last days.
 

Jerry_Fletcher

New Member
See if you can find a copy of "The Cult of the Virgin: Catholic Mariology and the Apparitions of Mary" by E. Miller. Covers a lot of stuff. I haven't read it for a while, but I found it interesting. BTW, Mr. Miller uses "cult" in a different way - not like we refer to JWs or Mormons.

--Rich
What is it about the book that makes you recommend it?
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
What is it about the book that makes you recommend it?
It's been quite a while since I read it, but I recall it was not "those rotten, demonized, Catholics!" It was - sympathetic? scholarly? looking at alternatives? Certainly not bashing those who believed in the apparitions.

But, I could be wrong - I read it some 20 years ago. (Man, time flies!)

--Rich
 

balshan

Well-known member
If you're not Catholic, what do you think really happened in Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900s, when 3 shepherd children claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary? I'm sure many claims of miracles within the Catholic church are easy to disregard, but this seems less so because tens of thousands of people showed up to see what was called the Miracle of the Sun, where the sun broke from it's orbit and spun and danced over the large crowd. Importantly, many in this crowd were non-believers, even reporters who came out to ridicule the anticipated miracle.

The only real reply I've seen to this is that it was the devil, but this seems like a pretty convenient opinion. It's perhaps the biggest miracle of the modern era, so I'm surprised more Christians aren't engaging this.
What is the miracle?
 

Jerry_Fletcher

New Member
What is the miracle?
At least the miracle of the sun appears to have been genuine. There were several prophecies given also, some of which seem to have been fulfilled, specifically the ones about Russia spreading her errors (communism) all over the world.
 
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Bonlee1

Guest
If you're not Catholic, what do you think really happened in Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900s, when 3 shepherd children claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary? I'm sure many claims of miracles within the Catholic church are easy to disregard, but this seems less so because tens of thousands of people showed up to see what was called the Miracle of the Sun, where the sun broke from it's orbit and spun and danced over the large crowd. Importantly, many in this crowd were non-believers, even reporters who came out to ridicule the anticipated miracle.

The only real reply I've seen to this is that it was the devil, but this seems like a pretty convenient opinion. It's perhaps the biggest miracle of the modern era, so I'm surprised more Christians aren't engaging this.
That some Christians have the opinion that "it was the devil" - is as convenient an opinion of that of Catholics and the Catholic church that it was Mary. Think about it......just saying.
 

Jerry_Fletcher

New Member
That some Christians have the opinion that "it was the devil" - is as convenient an opinion of that of Catholics and the Catholic church that it was Mary. Think about it......just saying.
When an otherworldly being appears and claims to be Mary, and then tens of thousands of people, including non-believers, witness a testifying miracle, I wouldn't call it "convenient" to entertain it at face value. If one considers all the facts and then says "you know what, this just looks more like the work of Satan to me" that would be one thing. But that's not what I see. I see people jump to the conclusion it was the devil in the same way Young Earth Creationists jump to the conclusions that dinosaur bones are really put there by the devil to trick us. Both approaches insist on an alternate interpretation based on previous commitments, and are not due to the events of Fatima (or dino bones) themselves.
 
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Bonlee1

Guest
When an otherworldly being appears and claims to be Mary, and then tens of thousands of people, including non-believers, witness a testifying miracle, I wouldn't call it "convenient" to entertain it at face value. If one considers all the facts and then says "you know what, this just looks more like the work of Satan to me" that would be one thing. But that's not what I see. I see people jump to the conclusion it was the devil in the same way Young Earth Creationists jump to the conclusions that dinosaur bones are really put there by the devil to trick us. Both approaches insist on an alternate interpretation based on previous commitments, and are not due to the events of Fatima (or dino bones) themselves.
I see you didn't really think about it....
 

Doug

Member
If you're not Catholic, what do you think really happened in Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900s, when 3 shepherd children claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary? I'm sure many claims of miracles within the Catholic church are easy to disregard, but this seems less so because tens of thousands of people showed up to see what was called the Miracle of the Sun, where the sun broke from it's orbit and spun and danced over the large crowd. Importantly, many in this crowd were non-believers, even reporters who came out to ridicule the anticipated miracle.

The only real reply I've seen to this is that it was the devil, but this seems like a pretty convenient opinion. It's perhaps the biggest miracle of the modern era, so I'm surprised more Christians aren't engaging this.
No doubt. Satan masquerading as an angel of light. Satan pretending to be Mary. And no, not offering an opinion.

2Cor 11:14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.
 
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Bonlee1

Guest
When an otherworldly being appears and claims to be Mary, and then tens of thousands of people, including non-believers, witness a testifying miracle, I wouldn't call it "convenient" to entertain it at face value.
Think about it....to the Catholic church and Catholics it would be convenient...to non-believers they'd not be able to discern its source anyway.
If one considers all the facts and then says "you know what, this just looks more like the work of Satan to me" that would be one thing.
And that's what many, many Christians have done.
But that's not what I see. I see people jump to the conclusion it was the devil in the same way Young Earth Creationists jump to the conclusions that dinosaur bones are really put there by the devil to trick us. Both approaches insist on an alternate interpretation based on previous commitments, and are not due to the events of Fatima (or dino bones) themselves.
Perhaps you're seeing it the way you want to see it...as you posted you were thinking of becoming Catholic?
 
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1Thess521

Well-known member
If you're not Catholic, what do you think really happened in Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900s, when 3 shepherd children claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary? I'm sure many claims of miracles within the Catholic church are easy to disregard, but this seems less so because tens of thousands of people showed up to see what was called the Miracle of the Sun, where the sun broke from it's orbit and spun and danced over the large crowd. Importantly, many in this crowd were non-believers, even reporters who came out to ridicule the anticipated miracle.

The only real reply I've seen to this is that it was the devil, but this seems like a pretty convenient opinion. It's perhaps the biggest miracle of the modern era, so I'm surprised more Christians aren't engaging this.
the answer to YOUR question is in the link YOU posted:
did YOU read it?
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
If you're not Catholic, what do you think really happened in Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900s, when 3 shepherd children claimed to have been visited by the Virgin Mary? I'm sure many claims of miracles within the Catholic church are easy to disregard, but this seems less so because tens of thousands of people showed up to see what was called the Miracle of the Sun, where the sun broke from it's orbit and spun and danced over the large crowd. Importantly, many in this crowd were non-believers, even reporters who came out to ridicule the anticipated miracle.

The only real reply I've seen to this is that it was the devil, but this seems like a pretty convenient opinion. It's perhaps the biggest miracle of the modern era, so I'm surprised more Christians aren't engaging this.

Demonic.

The devil appearing as an angel of light, taking the focus off of Christ and putting it onto Mary.

The Gospel is about CHRIST, not Mary.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Demonic. Masquerading as Mary. The late Diane Sellner who was the head administrator on here until her death in 2018, once started a thread about it over 15 years ago, on here. If memory serves, she pointed out that the apparition told at least one of the children to wear heavy, coarse ropes against their delicate, naked skin, to help get people out of hell. How could anyone do that? Once one is in hell, it's over--no second chance. It was painful for them and even caused bleeding. That alone proves the apparition was false.

To free souls from the fires of hell, Jacinta freely undertook sacrifices. In the fierce heat of the summer, she gave up drinking water. As a sacrifice to God’s Glory, she offered her afternoon snacks to children even poorer than she. To save souls, she took upon herself the pain of wearing a rough piece of knotted rope next to her bare skin. She endured the exhausting interrogations and insults of disbelievers all without the smallest lament. “If only I could show hell to sinners!” she said, “how happy I would be if all could go to paradise.”

A year following the apparitions at the Cova da Iria, the illness which would carry her to death began. First came bronchial pneumonia, then an abscess on the lung, both of which made her suffer intensely. Yet from her hospital bed, she declared cheerfully that her sickness was just a new opportunity to suffer for the conversion of sinners.

from fatimadotorg.

How can our sufferings save someone who is already in hell????

I think the apparition said that more people needed to be dedicated to "my immaculate heart." That was evidence also that the apparition was from the devil, for the true Mary would point to her Son, not to herself.

Core of the Fatima Message​

Header - The Immaculate Heart of Mary: Core of the Fatima Message




Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary permeates the whole story and message of Fatima. One may well say that it is the very core of the message, as well as the solution presented for the problems of today’s world.



Jesus Wants Devotion to the Immaculate Heart:

In 1916, the angel1 who came to prepare the three shepherd children for the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin said to them, “The Hearts of Jesus and Mary are attentive to the voice of your supplications.”2

In another apparition, the angel repeated the message: “Pray, pray a lot. The Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary have designs of mercy upon you.”3

And the Mother of God herself, in the second apparition, told Lúcia:

“Jesus wants to use you to make me known and loved. He wants to establish devotion to my Immaculate Heart in the world. To those who accept it, I promise salvation and those souls will be loved by God as flowers I have placed to embellish His Throne.”

Upon learning that she was going to be alone on earth after the death of her cousins, Lúcia was distressed. The Blessed Virgin consoled her, saying:

“I will never leave you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.”


From americaneedsfatima.org.

But Jesus said "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE comes to God except by Me."

NOT by His mother, but ONLY through Him!

These two statements—that Jesus wants to establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in the world, and that her Immaculate Heart is the refuge of suffering souls and the path that leads to heaven—summarize Fatima spirituality.

I don't know if any non-Catholic on here now was on back then. I am pretty sure Atemi was, but he hasn't been on here in ages.
 
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balshan

Well-known member
Demonic. Masquerading as Mary. The late Diane Sellner who was the head administrator on here until her death in 2018, once started a thread about it over 15 years ago, on here. If memory serves, she pointed out that the apparition told the children to wear heavy, coarse ropes against their delicate, naked skin, to help get people out of purgatory. It was painful for the children and some even bled because of it. That alone proves the apparition was false. IF it was purgatory, then this too proves the apparition was false. The Bible does not even hint at such a place.

I think the apparition said that more people needed to build churches dedicated to "my immaculate heart." That was evidence also that the apparition was from the devil, for the true Mary would point to her Son, not to herself.

I don't know if any non-Catholic on here now was on back then. I am pretty sure Atemi was, but he hasn't been on here in ages.
I vaguely remember this being discussed but I cannot remember when or what was said. But it is obviously not from God but RCs have built a lot of churches dedicated to Mary. You would think if Jesus was the focus of their religion all churches should be dedicated to Him. In fact, if it was real then Jesus would be the focus. But it increased the number who prayed the rosary, which is a big waste of time. One should only pray to the Lord.

Pain comes from one source and it is not God.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
When an otherworldly being appears and claims to be Mary, and then tens of thousands of people, including non-believers, witness a testifying miracle, I wouldn't call it "convenient" to entertain it at face value. If one considers all the facts and then says "you know what, this just looks more like the work of Satan to me" that would be one thing. But that's not what I see. I see people jump to the conclusion it was the devil in the same way Young Earth Creationists jump to the conclusions that dinosaur bones are really put there by the devil to trick us. Both approaches insist on an alternate interpretation based on previous commitments, and are not due to the events of Fatima (or dino bones) themselves.
Actually, I remember researching this many years ago. it may not be true that everyone saw this "miracle."

Also, Jesus warns us about how we can be led astray by "signs and wonders" that don't come from God (paraphrasing).

Matthew 24:24 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

This apparition was a false prophet.


 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Actually, I remember researching this many years ago. it may not be true that everyone saw this "miracle."

Also, Jesus warns us about how we can be led astray by "signs and wonders" that don't come from God (paraphrasing).



This apparition was a false prophet.

This is what Protestants have to say. The say the same about Joan of Arc and any other spiritual occurrence in the lives of the saints. The saints threaten their protestant faith.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
This is what Protestants have to say. The say the same about Joan of Arc and any other spiritual occurrence in the lives of the saints. The saints threaten their protestant faith.
I have never said that about Joan of Arc. Some think she could have been schizophrenic, since hearing voices is one of the traits of that mental illness.

But I did research Fatima as best I could, over 15 years ago and came to the conclusion that this "apparition" was of the devil. It mixed in just enough truth, even mentioning Jesus, to make its lies more palatable and believable.
 
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