How Do Those Who Adhere to Sola Scriptura Address....

Anselm01

Member
IN THE SAME WAY
do you believe the accessibility of the Catholic Church and its writings affects its authority?

Native Americans in 400AD did not have access to the Catholic Church and its writings:
do you believe that diminished the authority of the Catholic Church?
Apples and oranges. The Catholic Church does not have as its ultimate authority a written work. It has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession. Jesus never commanded a word be written. He commanded his followers to "preach" and "teach," but nowhere does it say "go therefore into all the world and WRITE."

If I cannot read and ask you what the bible says, how can I be sure you are not lying to me or simply misinformed? And why should I trust you not to lie?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Apples and oranges. The Catholic Church does not have as its ultimate authority a written work. It has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession. Jesus never commanded a word be written. He commanded his followers to "preach" and "teach," but nowhere does it say "go therefore into all the world and WRITE."

If I cannot read and ask you what the bible says, how can I be sure you are not lying to me or simply misinformed? And why should I trust you not to lie?
i want you to be crystal clear:
is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?

If I cannot read and ask you what the living Magisterium says, how can I be sure you are not lying to me or simply misinformed? And why should I trust you not to lie?
 

Anselm01

Member
i want you to be crystal clear:
is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?

If I cannot read and ask you what the living Magisterium says, how can I be sure you are not lying to me or simply misinformed? And why should I trust you not to lie?
I will let St. Clement of Rome answer for me.

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

You do not trust me, you trust the Church Jesus founded.

Now, again...

Since you have an the ultimate authority a WRITTEN work, please answer the below questions.

If I cannot read and ask you what the bible says, how can I be sure you are not lying to me or simply misinformed? And why should I trust you not to lie?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Now, again...

Since you have an the ultimate authority a WRITTEN work, please answer the below questions.

If I cannot read and ask you what the bible says, how can I be sure you are not lying to me or simply misinformed? And why should I trust you not to lie?
YOU do not know I am not lying
YOU do not know if I simply misunderstood.
I have no idea what YOU should trust me: that's on YOU

You do not need to trust me, you trust the words God breathed out>

Get someone you trust to read them to you.
That was easy
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
The Catholic Church does not have as its ultimate authority a written work. It has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession.
now again:
i want you to be crystal clear:
is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?
 

Anselm01

Member
YOU do not know I am not lying
YOU do not know if I simply misunderstood.
I have no idea what YOU should trust me: that's on YOU

You do not need to trust me, you trust the words God breathed out>

Get someone you trust to read them to you.
That was easy
So, I am at your mercy not to deceive me?...
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
So, I am at your mercy not to deceive me?...
sure: if you have abousulty no decrement skills
and there is Nigerian Prince who wants to talk to you about an opportunity

OR.............
Get someone you trust to read them to you.
That was easy
 

Anselm01

Member
now again:
i want you to be crystal clear:
is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?
The Magisterium is more authoritative then your interpretation of the written word of God. This issue is about the individual's authority to bind others to their personal interpretation, not whether the Church has this authority. Historically, we see this played out in councils and how the Church responds to heresy. Once a dogma is defined (like the Trinity. A word NOT found in the bible), it is binding on all Christian conscience. You can either consent or be anathema.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
The Magisterium is more authoritative then your interpretation of the written word of God. This issue is about the individual's authority to bind others to their personal interpretation, not whether the Church has this authority. Historically, we see this played out in councils and how the Church responds to heresy. Once a dogma is defined (like the Trinity. A word NOT found in the bible), it is binding on all Christian conscience. You can either consent or be anathema.
i did NOT ask if the "Magisterium is more authoritative then <my> interpretation of the written word of God"

You said "The Catholic Church does not have as its ultimate authority a written work. It has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession."
I did ask
Is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?

now again:
i want you to be crystal clear:
is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?
 
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1Thess521

Well-known member
Why should I trust them?
that's a personal issue of why and who YOU should choose to trust.
I can't answer that for YOU:

But its very sad if you can trust anyone to read to you.

Maybe pick a few people and separately have them read to you and see if they agreed.
No trust needed
That was easy
 
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Anselm01

Member
i did NOT ask if the "Magisterium is more authoritative then <my> interpretation of the written word of God"

You said "The Catholic Church does not have as its ultimate authority a written work. It has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession."
I did ask
Is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?
Again, it is not an "verses" dilemma. I think the Catechism explains it best.

II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source. . .


80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. the first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.
 

Anselm01

Member
that's a personal issue of why and who YOU should choose to trust.
I can't answer that for YOU:

But its very sad if you can trust anyone to read to you.

Maybe pick a few people and separately have them read to you and see if they agreed.
No trust needed
That was easy
So, this issue devolves into utter skepticism and relativism when there is no trusted teaching authority? Welcome to Postmodernism.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Again, it is not an "verses" dilemma. I think the Catechism explains it best.

II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source. . .


80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. the first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.
i didnt ask that about a common source or modes of transmission

You said "The Catholic Church does not have as its ultimate authority a written work. It has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession."
and again
Is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
So, this issue devolves into utter skepticism and relativism when there is no trusted teaching authority? Welcome to Postmodernism.
I trust the words of God:
That was easy:
But too hard for you:

Is this too hard for you to accept?

The spoken and written words from God are more authoritative than the spoken and written words from any Church
 

Anselm01

Member
i didnt ask that about a common source or modes of transmission

You said "The Catholic Church does not have as its ultimate authority a written work. It has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession."
and again
Is your living Magisterium more authoritative than a writing breathed out by God?
It is not an either...or. It is a both...and.
 

Anselm01

Member
I trust the words of God:
That was easy:
But too hard for you:

Is this too hard for you to accept?

The spoken and written words from God are more authoritative than the spoken and written words from any Church
Are you referring to an audible external voice from God that instructs me one on one, or words that have to be read and therefore come through someone who can read them? How does punting to the bible work for someone who cannot read?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
It is not an either...or. It is a both...and.
ok so you want to change what you posted?
from
The Catholic Church does not have as its ultimate authority a written work. It has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession."
to something different; like...
The Catholic Church does not have as its ONLY ultimate authority a written work. It ALSO has a living Magisterium due to apostolic succession."
 
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1Thess521

Well-known member
Are you referring to an audible external voice from God that instructs me one on one, or words that have to be read and therefore come through someone who can read them? How does punting to the bible work for someone who cannot read?
lets just cut to the chase:
Are the spoken or written words from the King of Kings, the Creator of all, the Ruler of Heaven and Earth, God Almighty
MORE authoritative
than the spoken or written words from the Catholic Church?
 
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