How do you like your gospel? Straight up, or in a mix?

[eternomade]

Where does the Bible say its essential to believe that?

The atonement? Without the atonement, is there a Gospel? Here you go...

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1 Corinthians 15:3 ESV

 

[eternomade]

It doesn’t .

But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
II Corinthians 3:14‭-‬15 NKJV

 

[Simpletruther]

The atonement? Without the atonement, is there a Gospel? Here you go...

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1 Corinthians 15:3 ESV

I am asking where in the bible it states that a limited atonement is essential gospel.

 

[PeanutGallery]

1) What do you mean by "all men"?

The same "all men" as in:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

2) What does "especially" mean; and what consequence does this have for the "salvation" given to unbelievers, compared to that given to believers?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

3) Since the Lord is declared to be the Saviour of unbelievers here, do you believe that this refers to salvation from sin, for them?

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Who said anything about salvation by works?

You implied it, by quoting a verse that refers to being saved, by means of works.

That is your inference of my alleged implication; I implied nothing.

 

[Simpletruther]

Which is the gospel:
a) Jesus is the Saviour of all men
b) Jesus is not the Saviour of all men

Rephrase:
Which is the gospel:
a) God is the Saviour of all men
b) God is not the Saviour of all men
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Both As and Cs believes God is the savior of all men. So it's a moot question for this debate.

But where does it say this is essential gospel?

 

[GeneZ]

The Calvinist "Gospel"

"God is Holy, and must condemn all sin. And all men have sinned, and are under eternal condemnation for their sin. But God has decided to show mercy and grace, and He sent His Son to die on a cross to atone for sin. And God has chosen a particular number of sinners, and has chosen them from the foundation of the world, to personally love them, and to apply the blood of Jesus to atone for their sin, so they are freed from the eternal torment they justly deserve. And you can know if you are one of those whom God chose to love, despite your sins, because He will regenerate you, and give you a new heart to love God, and will give you faith to believe in Him. And so if you trust in Him to atone for your sins, you can know that He has saved you."

It says that we have been chosen 'in Him' before the foundations of the earth. Not simply "chosen."

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."​

Why does it say it that way?


Where was the bride of Adam before her body was revealed to Adam and the angels?

Her body was 'In Adam.' Hidden!

And, where is the body for the Bride of Christ, now? 'In Jesus Christ.' We are hid IN Him!

Calvinists have been failing to grasp?

Throughout all of human history.. only certain believers were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be In Christ!

That means? Who we are to be is to be found now in the Body of Jesus.

Not all were chosen in Christ. Moses will not be the bride. Isaiah will not be the Bride. Even, King David will not be the Bride.

Why? OT saints were not chosen before the foundation of the world to be IN Christ.

As John the Baptist revealed.. OT saints will be the friend of the Groom, not the Bride of the Groom. John 3:29

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits
and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy
is mine, and it is now complete.​

God sovereignly chose out from all the souls He knew will believe, for only certain ones to be saved IN Christ. That's what Ephesians 1:4 reveals.


Eve was bone of Adam's bones and flesh of Adam's flesh. Before the woman was revealed? Her body was IN Adam. Out of all men ever to live who God knows will believe? Only the Church has been Chosen by God before the foundations of the world to be IN Christ when resurrected.

God does not choose who will believe. God chooses when those whom He knows will believe to be saved at a time that will result in a certain resurrection body. The Jews were promised their eternal home on the New Earth. Jesus promised His church their home to be in Heaven.

I wish the Calvinists would smash the ice they have frozen their volition in, and warm up to the fact that without being made (by grace) to freely choose to accept, or reject... there could be no true salvation. Without grace suppressing the depravity of the flesh no soul could believe. That is why we must be saved BY grace!

 

[eternomade]

I am asking where in the bible it states that a limited atonement is essential gospel.

I provided the verse. 1 Corinthians 15:3. Can I ask you what "according to the scriptures" would mean?

 

[Simpletruther]

I provided the verse. 1 Corinthians 15:3. Can I ask you what "according to the scriptures" would mean?

Where does that Scripture indicate limited atonement?

 

[eternomade]

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV

I highlighted the two areas. The word "our" implies it's not everyone.

The second highlight implies the types and shadows in the OT Scriptures such as the Passover.

"When I see the blood I will Passover you."

Did God Passover all of Egypt, or only a remnant? Did God save the entire world, or only Noah and his family?

 

[Simpletruther]

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV

I highlighted the two areas. The word "our" implies it's not everyone.

The second highlight implies the types and shadows in the OT Scriptures such as the Passover.

"When I see the blood I will Passover you."

Did God Passover all of Egypt, or only a remnant? Did God save the entire world, or only Noah and his family?

There is no necessary implication there.

It doesnt say "our sins only".

And it seems Paul is using the term personally, for those believers he was writing to.

And the blood was applied at passover as a symbol of faith.

All this fits well with John3:16. God gave his Son for whoever believes.

 

[David1701]

The same "all men" as in:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

LOL!

There are two different sets of "all men" in Rom. 5:18...

Judgment came upon all men who are in Adam (the one whose offence brought the condemnation) to condemnation.

The free gift came upon all men who are in Christ (the righteous one, whose death and resurrection brought justification) unto justification of life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This does not even address the question I asked!

1 Tim. 4:10 (MKJV) For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the preserver of all men, especially of those who believe.

God preserves all men, but those who believe are given greater preservation (that's what the especially refers to - it is a word denoting degree, as I informed you).

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Yes, Jesus took away the sins of Jews AND Gentiles (not Jews only). That he did not take away the sins of every single person is obvious, since there are many who are punished in hell. What would they be punished for, if their sins had been taken away?

Who said anything about salvation by works?

That is your inference of my alleged implication; I implied nothing.

Here is the verse you quoted.

1Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Everyone should notice that this is about WORKS and it says, "...thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.". Do you believe that a preacher can save those in the congregation from sin, by his preaching??? I thought the Lord Jesus was our Saviour...

You posted this verse in connection with a discussion about salvation. Since we know (okay, I'm unsure if you do) that salvation from sin is not by works, what is 1 Tim. 4:16 talking about? (N.B. I'm not looking for information; I'm asking to see if you know, or can find out.)

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
There are two different sets of "all men" in Rom. 5:18...

Judgment came upon all men who are in Adam (the one whose offence brought the condemnation) to condemnation.

The free gift came upon all men who are in Christ (the righteous one, whose death and resurrection brought justification) unto justification of life.
...

"The free gift came upon all men who are in Christ"

Thanks for clearing up what God forgot to add to his word.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[ReverendRV]

"The free gift came upon all men who are in Christ"

Thanks for clearing up what God forgot to add to his word.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Universalism?

 

[David1701]

"The free gift came upon all men who are in Christ"

Thanks for clearing up what God forgot to add to his word.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Look at the context, for once in your life!

Rom. 5:14-19 (KJV)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This whole passage is about the contrast between the first Adam and the last Adam; it is also about the contrast between those who are in the first Adam and those who are in the last Adam. This could hardly be clearer.

If the two "all men" groups, in verse 18, were one and the same, then the whole context of the passage would be broken; not only that, but also it would mean that every single person who ever lived would receive justification unto life! I hope you realise that this is heretical...

 

[MMDAN]

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Universalism?

Through faith

 

[ReverendRV]

Through faith

So what's the difference between us then?

 

[ReverendRV]

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Amen Main-Man Dan!

 

[PeanutGallery]

Look at the context, for once in your life!

Rom. 5:14-19 (KJV)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This whole passage is about the contrast between the first Adam and the last Adam; it is also about the contrast between those who are in the first Adam and those who are in the last Adam. This could hardly be clearer.

If the two "all men" groups, in verse 18, were one and the same, then the whole context of the passage would be broken; not only that, but also it would mean that every single person who ever lived would receive justification unto life! I hope you realise that this is heretical...

The free gift came upon all men; those who receive the gift are justified.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 

[ReverendRV]

The free gift came upon all men; those who receive the gift are justified.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

I used to have difficulties understanding Romans 5; until I found out about Covenant Theology. When the chapter speaks of Adam and then Christ, you could read it instead as the Old Covenant and then the New Covenant; because we are "IN" one Covenant or the other...