How does a Christian know?

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Janice Bower

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Well, now I see that this a discussion of Roman Catholicism, and I mistakenly jumped in. God brought me out of Mormonism and steered me away from Catholicism. He can lead Catholics to truth also, but it isn't my calling to teach Catholics the truth or even Mormons. I inform people about Mormonism.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Plenty more.

It says belief in Christ should not perish....belief only. It doesn't say works, baptism, confession, communion and whatever else people tack on to it.

Is there more to getting saved?
Getting saved or being saved? The saved person brings glory to God because he is being conformed to Christ and others see that God is working in his life.
 

A new day

Well-known member
Many people accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary.

Then what are these? These are from a Roman catholic webpage giving prayer instruction to Rc's. Look closely at the wording. There is NO queen of heaven. It is an egyptian deity, in which Jeremiah in the Old testament vehemently condemned .... chapter 44. Read the entire chapter. Below is from a catholic web page verbatim.

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, Hail our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, Poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs, Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate

My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve.

O, Queen of Heaven, rejoice! Alleluia.

We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God; Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.


Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions, but, in your mercy, hear and answer me.


go here, and watch video. post 1,327 by bonnie and then come back and tell people here in this forum who used to be members of the Roman catholic church, that the Rcc doesn't worship mary. They will tell you otherwise. Btw, the word "venerate" is latin for "worship"


We absolutely can not worship God, and give glory to another along with giving Him glory.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Then what are these? These are from a Roman catholic webpage giving prayer instruction to Rc's. Look closely at the wording. There is NO queen of heaven. It is an egyptian deity, in which Jeremiah in the Old testament vehemently condemned .... chapter 44. Read the entire chapter. Below is from a catholic web page verbatim.

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, Hail our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, Poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs, Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate

My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve.

O, Queen of Heaven, rejoice! Alleluia.

We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God; Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions, but, in your mercy, hear and answer me.


go here, and watch video. post 1,327 by bonnie and then come back and tell people here in this forum who used to be members of the Roman catholic church, that the Rcc doesn't worship mary. They will tell you otherwise. Btw, the word "venerate" is latin for "worship"


We absolutely can not worship God, and give glory to another along with giving Him glory.
Okay. As You must know I am a born again Christian who will NEVER pray to anyone but God. God steered me away from Catholicism and those who kiss statues in St. Peter's and other places; pray to deceased persons whom they refer to as Saints, or Mother of God, etc. I don't give glory that belongs to God to created beings.
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
I understand what you are saying. I suggest reading the Bible every day, asking God to teach you, and continuing on that path. I left Mormonism many, many years ago and tried many churches, not knowing which was best. God WILL teach you! Make it your life's journey to read and pray.
Hi Janice. Thanks for the advice. I actually do read the Bible every day and spend time in prayer. I have read through the entire Bible over 45 times and have memorized over 3,000 verses - most of that while I was a nCCs. I realized, after looking at the entire Bible, that the Catholic church has it right and I returned back to the Catholic church.
 
One Mediator of the New Covenant. Heb 12:24

If you want to understand the role of Mediatrix then you need to understand the role that Eve played. She assisted Adam in the downfall of Man. Mary assisted Jesus in Man's redemption.
Mary was a sinner and had nothing to do with man's redemption. Jesus was her savior as well.

The bible in Matthew 12: 46-50 says, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to Him. 47Someone told Him, “Look, Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You.48But Jesus replied, “Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” 49Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. 50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

What is the will of God?

In John 6:40 Jesus says, "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So why did Jesus outright turn from recognizing Mary his earthly mother, as his mother, to his eternal family (the disciples) when he said that they are his mother and brothers?

And why did Jesus say of John the Baptist, "I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, yet even the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he" (Luke 7:28).

For the same reason. Both Mary and John the Baptist walked according to the flesh trying to fulfill the law, yet incapable of doing everything perfectly. The law was only a guardian until Jesus fulfilled the law. The law can't save and it was/is not a savior.

"So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian" (Gal. 3:24-25).

Mary was not perfect. If Mary was perfect and holy in the flesh then none of these scriptures would be true...

"He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birtha and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph 2:8-9).

“There is no one righteous, not even one" (Ro 3:10). Not one, not Mary.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Ro 3:23). Mary is included in all.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Ro. 3:28).

On Jesus being sinless,
"You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin" (1 John 3:5).
"He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth" (1 Pe. 2:22).
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Co 5:21).

Find just one bible verse that says Mary was perfect.

The law was to show us our sin. Faith in the finished, perfect work of perfect, sinless Jesus is the only way for salvation.

Works can't save. If you think they can then just try confessing every thought that lacks faith in God. Take notice and be honest.

"everything that does not come from faith is sin" (Ro 14:23).

"For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ" (Ro 5:15).

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mene because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro 5:12-14).

Sin was passed from Adam, not Eve, to all of creation.

And since this is passed through the man, Mary contributed to Jesus as son of man, but God the Father,who is perfect, didn't pass down the sin of Adam to Jesus so Jesus was born perfect.

Mary, however, was born of an earthly father who passed down Adam's sin to her. She was born a sinner like all the rest of us.

Only Jesus had God as His Father.
 
Hi Janice. Thanks for the advice. I actually do read the Bible every day and spend time in prayer. I have read through the entire Bible over 45 times and have memorized over 3,000 verses - most of that while I was a nCCs. I realized, after looking at the entire Bible, that the Catholic church has it right and I returned back to the Catholic church.
Please read my response right below your last post.
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
I took instruction in the Catholic church. I've been to the Vatican. I never joined the Catholic church. Instead, I became a Mormon and stayed with it many years. Many people accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary. Mormons like to accuse Christians of worshiping the Bible.

I suggest ignoring insults and other people's lack of knowledge. Let's concentrate on God's word and keep asking HIM to lead us.

What is nCC?
A nCCs is a non Catholic Christian.
 

balshan

Well-known member
One would think that if the RCC saw its peeons practicing something that it did not agree with, then it would come down pretty hard on them – as it did with birth control and abortion. But no, the silence is deafening.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
Or else they find a way of making it all right. RCs getting divorced was not good for the RCC, so they started handing out RC annulments. This is just a coverup for what the couple is really doing.
And then we arrive at the place where one sinner judges another, quite unlike what a Christian should really be doing - leaving such things to God.
We are to judge the spirits. We are not allowed to judge the final destination. Two different things.

1 Cor 5:11 which the RCC likes to ignore is all about judging the spirits and removing the bad spirits.

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

1 John 4

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thess 5:21

But test everything; hold fast what is good.

John 7:24

Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

1 cor 5:12

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

It is a lie to imply we are not to judge insiders.
 

Johan

Well-known member
I know, if it's not specifically stated in the scriptures it didn't happen, right? Not every day to day action of them going out and preaching and interacting with the people was written down. It's only common sense to think that if they were given such a power from the Lord they definitely used it.
Your problem is that the details you claim to be in those passages are not there at all. No hearing of confession, no absolution, no nothing. So these passages are non-examples of what you purported to show.
It only makes common sense that would actually engage in such action.
Appeal to "common sense," which in reality is an appeal to your preconceived ideas, is also a non-argument.
Again, people had to confess their sins to become Christians
Says the Bible where?
and the Apostles had the power to forgive people's sins as per Jesus.
I still haven't seen any biblical support for this idea either. It seems that all you can offer is yet another example of eisegesis.
It again it is only common sense that this was done in the process of people coming to Christ. A written down scriptural example is not needed to ascertain this.
"Common sense" would rather be that the things you claim to have taken place would have been mentioned at least somewhere in the NT.
Agreed. That is the thing that makes possible the forgiveness of sins, it is indeed the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Once again this was not what was being discussed. We were discussing a specific, stand alone issue which was whether or not they had the power to forgive sins. One either believes what Jesus said regarding this or one doesn't.
Yes, it is precisely what is being discussed, but you still do not understand the implications of the passage I quoted. Since Christ took our sins away on the cross, there are no sins left to be forgiven. Was it clearer now? And yes, you will object that the apostles were given the "power" to forgive sins in John 20:23. But the details point in another direction.

"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (NASB)

The central verbs (ἀφέωνται = have been forgiven, κεκράτηνται = have been retained) are in the perfect tense. The forgiveness of sins has already taken place. The apostles could only confirm and declare what God had already accomplished. As Jesus exclaimed: "It is finished". Your priests are not able to save a single soul. Jesus has accomplished what He was sent to do, i.e., to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21).
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
Mary was a sinner and had nothing to do with man's redemption. Jesus was her savior as well.

The bible in Matthew 12: 46-50 says, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to Him. 47Someone told Him, “Look, Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You.48But Jesus replied, “Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” 49Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. 50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

What is the will of God?

In John 6:40 Jesus says, "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So why did Jesus outright turn from recognizing Mary his earthly mother, as his mother, to his eternal family (the disciples) when he said that they are his mother and brothers?

And why did Jesus say of John the Baptist, "I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, yet even the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he" (Luke 7:28).

For the same reason. Both Mary and John the Baptist walked according to the flesh trying to fulfill the law, yet incapable of doing everything perfectly. The law was only a guardian until Jesus fulfilled the law. The law can't save and it was/is not a savior.

"So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian" (Gal. 3:24-25).

Mary was not perfect. If Mary was perfect and holy in the flesh then none of these scriptures would be true...

"He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birtha and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph 2:8-9).

“There is no one righteous, not even one" (Ro 3:10). Not one, not Mary.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Ro 3:23). Mary is included in all.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Ro. 3:28).

On Jesus being sinless,
"You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin" (1 John 3:5).
"He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth" (1 Pe. 2:22).
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Co 5:21).

Find just one bible verse that says Mary was perfect.

The law was to show us our sin. Faith in the finished, perfect work of perfect, sinless Jesus is the only way for salvation.

Works can't save. If you think they can then just try confessing every thought that lacks faith in God. Take notice and be honest.

"everything that does not come from faith is sin" (Ro 14:23).

"For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ" (Ro 5:15).

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mene because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro 5:12-14).

Sin was passed from Adam, not Eve, to all of creation.

And since this is passed through the man, Mary contributed to Jesus as son of man, but God the Father,who is perfect, didn't pass down the sin of Adam to Jesus so Jesus was born perfect.

Mary, however, was born of an earthly father who passed down Adam's sin to her. She was born a sinner like all the rest of us.

Only Jesus had God as His Father.
Yes, I agree with what scripture says but not your interpretation of scripture. If you study the Bible thoroughly, both the OT and the NT you will find out why we believe what we believe about Mary. There is no verse that explicitly states Mary's IC, PV etc but it can be discerned from scripture.
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
I believe dingoling came from Protestantism or Fundamentalism. I can't remember which, but he is content with believing the Catholic theological outlook.
I was raised as a Catholic but my parents stopped going when I was 16. When I was at college there was a Christian on my wing of the dorm that got me going back to church but it was a Christian church. He steered my away from the Catholic church. He was working with a group called the Navigators. I was taught to pray, read, study, memorize and meditate on the Bible, fellowship with other Christians and to evangelize.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
God sees a person's heart and knows whom He is saving and told us not to look at outward appearances. He tells us we will know them by their fruits (teachings and lifestyle).
What effective difference is there between looking at outward appearances and the fruit one produces? When I see a Mega church build a massive edifice to engage in their weekly worship services and those arriving are all parking brand new Caddys, Lincolns, BMWs, Aston Martins, etc. etc.etc. it doesn't take God or even a genius to figure out what's in their heart.

Jesus points out those who make a flashy appearance as white washed tombs housing dead men's bones. He is openly pointing out what the surface is hiding.
If a Mormon gets angry when confronted with truth, he is still a Mormon, not a Christian.
Wouldn't this be the case with anyone regardless of whatever superficial labels they may choose to identify with?
You can't recognize a Christian unless you know the Word of God and see holiness in that person's life.
This is true for Satan who also has no clue what is in a person's heart. He knows the bible better than most Christians, and can see the outward manifestations of holiness in a person's life which is probably the only way he is able to paint a target on them.
 
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