How does a Christian know?

[dingoling.]

No it is not showing that the poster's rule doesn't work. It shows that RCs will go to any length to prove their false beliefs, as far as destroying the word of God. Your councils are full of lying men, the Jerusalem Council had nothing to do with your evil institution. That council would never hide sin, would not pray to the dead, would not accept sexual sinners, rapists etc.

The Jerusalem council was made up of the apostles, elders and others. We're any of them without sin?

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Could you list for us the heresies that you consider endanger our eternal soul? Thanks.

What matters is what Jesus said:

John 3: 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again..."

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Ephesians 2: 8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God."

 

[balshan]

No, we don't doubt God's word. It shows that your rule doesn't work for all Christian beliefs.

No it doesn't, that is rubbish. Most RC beliefs are not Christian beliefs at all. You have constantly failed to prove they are Christian beliefs. In fact, most Marian beliefs come from that POJs which is full of false claims and even lies about who wrote it. You constantly show that your beliefs cannot be defended and are false.

 

[balshan]

Who do you believe does have authority?

Let us not flog this dead horse. You know it is not your evil institution. People have answered this inane question over and over again. Jesus, HS, God's word are the authorities that can be trusted. Your leaders cannot be trusted.

 

[balshan]

The Jerusalem council was made up of the apostles, elders and others. We're any of them without sin?

They did not attack and molest children, they did not lie about the victims that were harmed by the actions of evil men, they protected flock, they were not like your leaders. In fact, the very question you ask is showing are little respect you have for these men of God. They protected the gospel message, they protected God's word unlike your leaders. They were Jewish and not gentiles. They were not RCs and would never behave like your leaders. They taught the truth and not fairy tales.

You insult them when you say your leaders are apostolic. No apostle ever would have hidden sin and allowed children to be harmed, nuns to be raped etc. There is no comparison at all.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

It is showing how your rule doesn't work. You can't claim scripture alone as the final/sole authority for the Christian faith when we don't see it in scripture or throughout the history of the Christian faith. We see issues concerning the Christian faith being settled by church councils, from the first church council recorded for us in Acts 15 all the way up to Vatican II.

Scripture IS the final/sole authority for the Christian faith. When God says it, it's final. Your RCC doesn't speak with the authority of God. It only speaks as the self-appointed ecclesiastical authority created by men.

Matthew 4: 4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

2 Timothy 3: 16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Since Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness what more do we need. Nothing.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

You ruin your credibility but making false statements. The Catholic Church has never wanted to make Mary an object of worship.

You are either ignorant of what the RCC teaches or you are purposefully lying.

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, "honour"; from worth, meaning "value", "dignity", "price", and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.

There are several degrees of this worship:

• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christian Worship

In its most general sense, homage paid to a person or a thing

www.newadvent.org

 

[balshan]

Scripture IS the final/sole authority for the Christian faith. When God says it, it's final. Your RCC doesn't speak with the authority of God. It only speaks as the self-appointed ecclesiastical authority created by men.

Matthew 4: 4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

2 Timothy 3: 16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Since Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness what more do we need. Nothing.

To add to this truthful post, I will say God was very happy that His word was enough. That is why He commands us not to add to it, or go beyond it, or take away ( and ignoring it takes away from it) from it.

Rev 22:18+

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Deut 4:2

You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Prov 3:5+

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

deut 12:32

“Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.

1 Cor 4:6

Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

The RCC does all 3 things all the time with their false doctrines which prove they have no authority to interpret the word at all.

 

[pilgrim]

Again, there is no "power" involved in forgiving sins. From where have you got that strange idea?

John 20: 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

 

[Misfit]

No "power" is needed to forgive sins.

The power. The ability. The authority. They all mean the same thing. Yes, Jesus gave this to the Apostles.

And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. (Heb. 10:14–18)

We are not talking about sacrifice here.

 

[Misfit]

He gave them the authority to tell repentant sinners their sins are forgiven and the unrepentant their sins are not forgiven. The apostles did not forgive sins.

No, He expressly said: "Peace be with you. As then Father has sent me, I am sending you. And with that he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

This passage is as clear as the sound of a bell. There is no ambiguity in those words, and they mean exactly what they say. To interpret them in any other way is to interpret them in error.

 

[Johan]

John 20: 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

I fail to find the word "power" in that passage.

 

[Johan]

The power. The ability. The authority. They all mean the same thing. Yes, Jesus gave this to the Apostles.

Can you give a biblical example of how the apostles used this "power"?

We are not talking about sacrifice here.

It is impossible to talk about the forgiveness of sins without bringing the sacrificial death of Christ into the picture.

 

[Misfit]

Can you give a biblical example of how the apostles used this "power"?

Acts 5:12-16. 12The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15 As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16 Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.

Acts 8:4-7 4Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. 5 Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there. 6 When the crowds heard Philip and saw the signs he performed, they all paid close attention to what he said. 7 For with shrieks, impure spirits came out of many, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. 8 So there was great joy in that city.

There are way too many examples to list here. Suffice it to say that as they went about their daily lives they were ordaining people, hearing their confessions and absolving them of their sins, baptizing them, and on Sunday leading the faithful in worship. All this done by the authority, by the power given to them by Jesus Christ as is clearly mentioned in the Scriptures.

It is impossible to talk about the forgiveness of sins without bringing the sacrificial death of Christ into the picture.

Of course that is what makes everything possible, but what you said ("And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. (Heb. 10:14–18)") is not what we were talking about, like some other sacrifice was needed as you seemed to be thinking. I were talking specifically about them having authority and thus the power to do things.

 

[Misfit]

to keep catholics in the pews and its coffers full.

And your church does not do that either?

I'm not the only Christian to speak out against the heresies in the RC system

We think you people are full of heresies too. Your biblical interpretation is clearly error filled.

I care about your eternal soul,

Don't worry about us, we will be just fine. It's the fate of your own soul that should be your main concern.

 

[Johan]

Acts 5:12-16. 12The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15 As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16 Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.

Acts 8:4-7 4Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. 5 Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there. 6 When the crowds heard Philip and saw the signs he performed, they all paid close attention to what he said. 7 For with shrieks, impure spirits came out of many, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. 8 So there was great joy in that city.

There are way too many examples to list here.

These are certainly examples of something, but not what I asked for. Where can we read about the apostles using their power to forgive the sins of other people? Where is the Catholic model of confession and absolution used? If you think it is merely implied, but nowhere explicitly stated, then please say so.

Suffice it to say that as they went about their daily lives they were ordaining people, hearing their confessions and absolving them of their sins, baptizing them, and on Sunday leading the faithful in worship. All this done by the authority, by the power given to them by Jesus Christ as is clearly mentioned in the Scriptures.

This triggers my interest. Where can we read about the apostles "hearing the confessions" of people? Can you find as much as one example?

Of course that is what makes everything possible, but what you said ("And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. (Heb. 10:14–18)") is not what we were talking about, like some other sacrifice was needed as you seemed to be thinking. I were talking specifically about them having authority and thus the power to do things.

You do not seem to understand the implications of Heb. 10:14–18. The sacrifice of Christ did not merely make forgiveness "possible." It is the means by which our sins have been taken away. Christ has perfected (perfect tense) forever his people by one sacrifice.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The Catholic Church has never wanted to make Mary an object of worship.

And as "False statements" go - This one is So OBVIOUSLY UNTRUE that it's a bonafied WHOPPER!!!!

In Roman Catholic Churches a SIGNIFICANT amount of emphasis is spent Worshipping their Mary Thing. That you don't consider it "Worship" just means you have no concept of what "Worship" even is.

And you know as well as I do, that no "Protestant Heretic" from Luther on forward has any "Credibility" with a properly propagandized Roman Catholic.

 

[Misfit]

Where can we read about the apostles using their power to forgive the sins of other people?

I know, if it's not specifically stated in the scriptures it didn't happen, right? Not every day to day action of them going out and preaching and interacting with the people was written down. It's only common sense to think that if they were given such a power from the Lord they definitely used it.

If you think it is merely implied, but nowhere explicitly stated, then please say so.

It only makes common sense that would actually engage in such action.

Where can we read about the apostles "hearing the confessions" of people? Can you find as much as one example?

Again, people had to confess their sins to become Christians, and the Apostles had the power to forgive people's sins as per Jesus. It again it is only common sense that this was done in the process of people coming to Christ. A written down scriptural example is not needed to ascertain this.

The sacrifice of Christ did not merely make forgiveness "possible." It is the means by which our sins have been taken away. Christ has perfected (perfect tense) forever his people by one sacrifice.

Agreed. That is the thing that makes possible the forgiveness of sins, it is indeed the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Once again this was not what was being discussed. We were discussing a specific, stand alone issue which was whether or not they had the power to forgive sins. One either believes what Jesus said regarding this or one doesn't.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

No, He expressly said: "Peace be with you. As then Father has sent me, I am sending you. And with that he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

So we have discussed this verse several times. I have made my position clear and have offered Scripture to support it. And it is not as the RCC, nor you Catholics, claim. Were it so Peter, on the day of Pentecost, would have forgiven the sins of the 3000 who became born-again rather then telling them:

Acts 2: 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The Bible is glaringly silent concerning what is obviously greatly important to you and RCC dogma. That priests can forgive sins. Beyond the misinterpreted context of Romans 20: 22-23 by the RCC and its promotion by the Catholics who have much to loose because of this, it doesn't change the fact that only God can forgive sin. Man cannot forgive sins against God.

This passage is as clear as the sound of a bell. There is no ambiguity in those words, and they mean exactly what they say. To interpret them in any other way is to interpret them in error.

I am not able to grammatically break down the past, present tenses of the verbs contained in this verse but I agree, it is clear as the sound of a bell what Jesus intended. To give His apostles the authority to tell those who earnestly seek Jesus and salvation their sins were forgiven by what Christ accomplished on the cross and their salvation was assured. To believe otherwise is to be in error.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

And your church does not do that either?

Is that an admission on your part? Either way, no. It doesn't. The followers of Christ are accomplishing the Great Commission, taking the Gospel into the whole of the world and care less about buildings, monies, or any other earthly trappings. Unlike the RCC and other "catholic" like protestant churches.

We think you people are full of heresies too. Your biblical interpretation is clearly error filled.

The followers of Christ do not worship Mary. Do not pray to dead sinners like Mary. Do not believe she was a "new eve". We do not believe she is co-redemptrix, mediatrix, or participated in our salvation beyond being the mother of Jesus, was sinless or was an "ever-virgin". We do not deny she had other children as clearly shown in Scripture. We do not believe man can forgive sins against God. We do not believe we must follow men, the self-appointed ecclesiastical authorities of the RCC, undying fealty to an earthly institution. We do not devalue Scripture to support dogmas. I could go on but there is no need. You are so entrenched and frightened of admitting the errors that are in the RCC you will fall on your sword before admitting you have been misled.

Don't worry about us, we will be just fine. It's the fate of your own soul that should be your main concern.

My love for you is not of my choice. I am commanded to love others as myself. That includes the lost and their eternal soul. Like yours.