How does Calvinism explain this

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Something you might want to look at here. One of the Calvinists posters has just claimed that some of the seed was false gospel. If he builds on that idea, he will go very wrong in his conclusions. You don't want to build on a false foundation do you?
if you are referring to me, I'm not saying the Bad Soils received a false Gospel; but am saying the true Seed/Gospel reached the Bad Soils but was misunderstood by the Bad Soils...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
It's probably my fault, because I reused a line of argument with you that I used with TomFL; and apparently you weren't following that discussion. TomFL was using the word 'received' the same as the word 'understood'. Since I thought you agreed with TomFL, I gave you the example of someone receiving Santa Claus, then understanding Christmas to be about Saint Nicholas; instead of Christmas being about the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. I wanted to make the point that receiving something with Joy is not always the same as receiving Truth. The child receives 'Corporate Christmas' wth JOY, but never received Jesus Christ wuth Joy; totally misunderstanding Christmas. When speaking to TomFL, I gave Ray Comfort's example of misunderstanding the true Gospel; if you'd like to go read it. I hope this longer response clears up my line of thought.

Basically; do you think that something received with Joy can possibly not be true?
I had read the airplane analogy.
And sure someone can be joyful over a lie that they consider to be true, like thinking erroneously that you had won the lottery. But that is not the case in the sower and the seed. All 4 hear the truth, only the first does not understand.
That is a good framework in understanding that parable.

And then I don't know if you saw it, but another Calvinist claimed that some of the seed was a false gospel. But that is misplaced. It is a doctrine invented to support his POV.
 

civic

Well-known member
I had read the airplane analogy.
And sure someone can be joyful over a lie that they consider to be true, like thinking erroneously that you had won the lottery. But that is not the case in the sower and the seed. All 4 hear the truth, only the first does not understand.
That is a good framework in understanding that parable.

And then I don't know if you saw it, but another Calvinist claimed that some of the seed was a false gospel. But that is misplaced. It is a doctrine invented to support his POV.
and I can admit when I say something wrong, can you ?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I went back to my Post and edited it, because I can see why he could think I said they received a false gospel. It's easy to mispeak...
0k. I'm happy to hear you did not mean it the way I read it. The seed is all true gospel message. ONLY the first soil does NOT understand.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You made a false statement and said he understood the word. That is flat out misleading.
Oh look

You ignored everything once again

the man mention received that is believed the word of the kingdom

if he was believing something else he would not be receiving the word of the kingdom with joy and he certainly would be persecuted for the word of the kingdom

Its not complicated
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I had read the airplane analogy.
And sure someone can be joyful over a lie that they consider to be true, like thinking erroneously that you had won the lottery. But that is not the case in the sower and the seed. All 4 hear the truth, only the first does not understand.
That is a good framework in understanding that parable.

And then I don't know if you saw it, but another Calvinist claimed that some of the seed was a false gospel. But that is misplaced. It is a doctrine invented to support his POV.
All Soils received the correct Gospel due to an over-spray of the Seed...

The three Bad Soils misunderstand the Gospel, since they forsook it. The True Gospel is unforsakeable when it's understood...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I'm afraid I can't forget the Non-Calvinist Teacher Ray Comfort. ~ The man misunderstood the Gospel, and 1st Corithinthians 2:14 says he can do that. Jesus told us that the Spirit goes where he pleases, then moves on; so it is with the New Birth. When someone gets Saved at Church but someone else doesn't; both of them received the Gospel Seed. The Seed on the Bad Soils were received, but being choked out or withered up are not positive responses...
The man in the parable received that is believed the word of the kingdom

He had to understand the word of the kingdom if he actually believed it

and he did respond positively for a period

That raises two problems if he was unregenerate

1 he was able to understand the gospel of the kingdom
3 He responded positively remember Calvinism insists the unregenerate hate God

and less I be remiss

Happy thanks giving my friend
 
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civic

Well-known member
All Soils received the correct Gospel due to an over-spray of the Seed...

The three Bad Soils misunderstand the Gospel, since they forsook it. The True Gospel is unforsakeable when it's understood...
yes only one soil Jesus said UNDERSTOOD the message which was the fruitful good soil. They must read their doctrine into the other soils to support their erroneous beliefs.

its their method of eisegesis reading their belief into the passage rather than exegesis allowing the text to determine what is true.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
All Soils received the correct Gospel due to an over-spray of the Seed...

The three Bad Soils misunderstand the Gospel, since they forsook it. The True Gospel is unforsakeable when it's understood...
That may be your doctrine, but only the first soil is categorized as not understanding. Since only the first soil is said to not understand, the logical implication is that the others did, even springing up in joy because of the truth.
Also look at the metaphor. The first soil produces no plant, because it did not understand.
How do the other three produce a plant unless they understand and it grows in them?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
The man in the parable received that is believed the word of the kingdom

He had to understand the word of the kingdom if he actually believed it

and he did respond positively for a period

That raises two problems if he was unregenerate

1 he was able to understand the gospel of the kingdom
3 He responded positively remember Calvinism insists the unregenerate hate God
I would say that the effect of the Gospel Seed, was the effect of the Gospel Seed; not the effect of the man. The reason for this is the first Soil; Jesus said if the Seed was not carried away, and if that Soil turned/believed; Jesus would HAVE to Save him. Jesus didn't have to Save the other two Bad Soils because they misunderstood the Gospel...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I would say that the effect of the Gospel Seed, was the effect of the Gospel Seed; not the effect of the man. The reason for this is the forth Soil; Jesus said if the Seed was not carried away, and if that Soil turned/believed; Jesus would HAVE to Save him. Jesus didn't have to Save the other two Bad Soils because they misunderstood the Gospel...
???????????????

We are not considering the effect of the man but the fact

He understood and believed the word of the kingdom receiving it with joy

However In case you missed it in my other message

happy thanksgiving
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
???????????????

We are not considering the effect of the man but the fact

He understood and believed the word of the kingdom receiving it with joy

However In case you missed it in my other message

happy thanksgiving
I thought your Thread was about the effect of the man, IE Understanding? There is no one who understands, no, not one...

Happy Thanksgiving, later!
 
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civic

Well-known member
You can tell they understood because of their joy. Joy comes from knowledge of the truth.
receiving something with joy is not the same thing as understanding. This will illustrate it perfectly.

I give my unsaved friend a gift for his birthday, he receives the gift with joy, appreciation and thankfulness. He opens up the gift and discovers its a bible and likes his new gift. But there is a problem when he reads it he does not understand anything he is reading as it doesn't make one bit of sense to him as per 1 Corinthians 2.

This illustrates the rocky soil who received the word with joy but did not understand it at all.

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I thought your Thread was about the effect of the man, IE Understanding? There is no one who understands, no, not one...

Happy Thanksgiving, later!
Later

Note it says thee are none that seek god

yet all these are examples of men seeking God

Deuteronomy 4:29; 1Chronicles 16:11; 22:19; 2Chronicles 7:14; 11:16; 12:14; 14:4; 15:2; 19:3; 20:3, 4; 30:19; 34:3; Ezra 6:21; 7:10; Isaiah 55:6-7; 58:2; Acts 15:17; 17:26-27; Hebrews 11:6; Psa 9:10; 83:16, Zeph 2:3

The original reference is Psalm 14:1-3

but look at verses 4 & 5
 

Sketo

Well-known member
One did not understand the word of the kingdom so that is no problem

yet another did understand receive it with joy but fell away in times of persecution
In your understanding, regeneration is the result of “understanding” and “belief”!

In your understanding when the “other did understand receive it with joy” did he, at that time, become regenerate... before he fell away?

Why or why not?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
In your understanding, regeneration is the result of “understanding” and “belief”!

In your understanding when the “other did understand receive it with joy” did he, at that time, become regenerate... before he fell away?

Why or why not?


Regeneration comes about when God perceives a true faith

if he was truly regenerate could he fall away ?

You will say no as a Calvinist

I do not challenge that claim

so how without regeneration was he able to understand the word of the kingdom enough to be persecuted for it
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Regeneration comes about when God perceives a true faith

if he was truly regenerate could he fall away ?

You will say no as a Calvinist

I do not challenge that claim

so how without regeneration was he able to understand the word of the kingdom enough to be persecuted for it
One thing to be aware of in parables is that they generally have a single point. They are not meant to show multiple aspects of truth. This one is more complex than usual but still has a main point, that not everyone who hears the gospel will produce fruit. I doubt that Jesus intended it as a teaching on how to be saved. The primary point is the need to respond to the tr uth regardless of what comes against us and we will find success and joy
 
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