How Does Provisionism Not Teach That Created Things Authored/Originated Part Of God's Omniscience?
- Thread starter Sketo
- Start date
God's omniscience came first.
God's omniscience which knew of and reflected man's future course of action
Reformedguy
Well-known member
So God's omniscient is bound to His creation?
Knowledge of a thing is just that.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
So he merely knows which mean He is not sovereign over history. He merely observes it.
Sorry you do not know what sovereignty means.
A sovereign does not need to determine everything.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Never said it did.
🚨STRAWMAN ALERT 🚨
Good try at deflection and topic change.
So He merely knows history and is not sovereign over history right? He merely watches it play like a movie.
Sketo
Well-known member
How Does Provisionism Not Teach That Created Things Authored/Originated Part Of God's Omniscience?
Let's break down fltom’s “Logic” and we will find that his term “reflected” actually does imply that created things Author/Originate part of God’s Omniscience.
At first glance, fltom's response might lead you to believe that God's omniscience takes precedence in the logical sequence. However, let's not be misled by his wording. Here's an analogy to clarify:
Fltom wants you to Imagine God's omniscience as a mirror, and human actions as what's being reflected in it. It might seem like the mirror (representing God's omniscience) knows about the reflection (human actions) before anything else, but this isn't the case.
Even at the speed of light or instantly, there's still a gap between an action occurring and it being reflected in the mirror. Similarly, fltom suggests that God's omniscience "reflects" human actions, but it doesn't imply that God's knowledge precedes those actions. The action has to exist before there's something to reflect, right?
Don't be deceived by fltom's deliberate placement of the word "omniscience" at the beginning of his sentence while positioning human actions before the "reflection" in the logical order.
To further illustrate fltom's deception through his sentence structure, consider this:
Before God created man, there was nothing to reflect because there were no human actions. In the logical sequence, God's creation of man comes before any reflection of human actions in His omniscience. So, you could argue that, in fltom's perspective, God's creation of man logically precedes His knowledge of human actions.
Now, how many of you were misled by fltom's wording in his response?
…
Last edited:
Reformedguy
Well-known member
He seems to be saying God does not make history, he merely observes history.
Sketo
Well-known member
And we can note that the mirror only reflects what is placed or exists in front of it. The reflection is logically dependent upon the object being reflected. Tom's position is dependent omniscience.
No just part of the body of his knowledge
You forget foreknowledge speaks of knowing before not determining before.
Your words belie your claim
Reformedguy said:
So he merely knows which mean He is not sovereign over history. He merely observes it.
According to them to be sovereign he cannot merely know
Sketo
Well-known member
The more I think about it the less since tom's "reflected" term makes.
Assuming fltoms illogical implication that the information could somehow be sent to the past mirror, what is it then being "reflected" to? 🤷🏻
So many holes in Provisionism.
...
Duh even you creeds affirm God had such knowledge
God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions
Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 26.
and your theologians
Knowledge (Omniscience). God’s knowledge may be defined as follows: God fully knows himself and all things actual and possible in one simple and eternal act.
Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 2004), 190.
2. Omniscience
By this we mean God’s perfect and eternal knowledge of all things which are objects of knowledge, whether they be actual or possible, past, present, or future.
God knows his inanimate creation: Ps. 147:4—“counteth the number of the stars; He calleth them all by their names.” He has knowledge of brute creatures: Mat. 10:29—sparrows—“not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.” Of men and their works: Ps. 33:13–15—“beholdeth all the sons of men.… considereth all their works.” Of hearts of men and their thoughts: Acts 15:8—“God, who knoweth the heart;” Ps. 139:2—“understandest my thought afar off.” Of our wants: Mat. 6:8—“knoweth what things ye have need of.” Of the least things: Mat. 10:30—“the very hairs of your head are all numbered.” Of the past: Mal. 3:16—“book of remembrance.” Of the future: Is. 46:9, 10—“declaring the end from the beginning.” Of men’s future free acts: Is. 44:28—“that saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd and shall perform all my pleasure.” Of men’s future evil acts
Augustus Hopkins Strong, Systematic Theology (Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1907), 282.
Omniscience
God is an intelligent being, and knowledge is one of his communicable attributes: “God created man after his own image, in knowledge, righteousness, and holiness” (Westminster Shorter Catechism Q. 10). Divine essence considered as cognizing gives the attribute of omniscience: “God is greater than our hearts and knows all things” (1 John 3:20); “Lord, you know all things” (John 21:17); “known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world” (Acts 15:18); “all things are naked and opened (tetrachēlismena) unto the eye of him with whom we have to do” (Heb. 4:13; Rom. 11:33; Matt. 6:32; 1 Kings 8:39; Ps. 139:1–16; Isa. 46:10; Ezek. 11:5
William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology (ed. Alan W. Gomes; 3rd ed.; Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 286.
add
OMNISCIENCE. This term does not appear in Scripture in either its nominal or its adjectival form, yet the Bible teaches God’s complete knowledge of all things. God knows to an infinite degree all that is both actual and possible. His knowledge of the actual is seen in knowing when the sparrow falls (Mt 10:29); numbering the hairs of our head (Mt 10:30); knowing the thoughts and intents of the heart (Ps 139); foretelling the future, particularly that of His people Israel (Deut 30:1–8; Isa 65–66; Mal 3:16–4:6). God’s knowledge of the possible is seen in revelations of what could have been (Isa 48:18; Mk 11:21). God’s knowledge is eternal (Acts 15:18); incomprehensible (Ps 139:6; Rom 11:33); and all-wise (Ps 104:24; Eph 3:10)
R. Allan Killen, “Omniscience,” ed. Charles F. Pfeiffer, Howard F. Vos, and John Rea, The Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia (Moody Press, 1975).
You have drunk deeply from the well of Gnostic Manichean thought and have substituted the philosophy of man for true Christian theology
Sketo
Well-known member
Notice fltom
Your references affirm that God's omniscience encompasses all knowledge, including past, present, and future events. Our perspective emphasizes that God's knowledge is not influenced by the actions of humanity throughout time. Instead, it affirms that God's knowledge is complete, eternal, and self-contained, without being dependent on information from the future.
However, On Provisionism it is necessary for man to transmit information backwards 👉from the future👈 to God in the past, like an object transmits light back to a “reflector”, placing man’s acting logically prior to God’s knowledge of all things.
Tom affirms this with his statment:
On Provisionism God may be Omniscient BUT not before man first transmits the information backwards to him.
…
Your references affirm that God's omniscience encompasses all knowledge, including past, present, and future events. Our perspective emphasizes that God's knowledge is not influenced by the actions of humanity throughout time. Instead, it affirms that God's knowledge is complete, eternal, and self-contained, without being dependent on information from the future.
However, On Provisionism it is necessary for man to transmit information backwards 👉from the future👈 to God in the past, like an object transmits light back to a “reflector”, placing man’s acting logically prior to God’s knowledge of all things.
Tom affirms this with his statment:
On Provisionism God may be Omniscient BUT not before man first transmits the information backwards to him.
…
Last edited:
You missed this
Duh even you creeds affirm God had such knowledge
God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions
Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 26.
and your theologians
Knowledge (Omniscience). God’s knowledge may be defined as follows: God fully knows himself and all things actual and possible in one simple and eternal act.
Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 2004), 190.
2. Omniscience
By this we mean God’s perfect and eternal knowledge of all things which are objects of knowledge, whether they be actual or possible, past, present, or future.
God knows his inanimate creation: Ps. 147:4—“counteth the number of the stars; He calleth them all by their names.” He has knowledge of brute creatures: Mat. 10:29—sparrows—“not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.” Of men and their works: Ps. 33:13–15—“beholdeth all the sons of men.… considereth all their works.” Of hearts of men and their thoughts: Acts 15:8—“God, who knoweth the heart;” Ps. 139:2—“understandest my thought afar off.” Of our wants: Mat. 6:8—“knoweth what things ye have need of.” Of the least things: Mat. 10:30—“the very hairs of your head are all numbered.” Of the past: Mal. 3:16—“book of remembrance.” Of the future: Is. 46:9, 10—“declaring the end from the beginning.” Of men’s future free acts: Is. 44:28—“that saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd and shall perform all my pleasure.” Of men’s future evil acts
Augustus Hopkins Strong, Systematic Theology (Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1907), 282.
Men's future free acts not simply what he determined
Omniscience
God is an intelligent being, and knowledge is one of his communicable attributes: “God created man after his own image, in knowledge, righteousness, and holiness” (Westminster Shorter Catechism Q. 10). Divine essence considered as cognizing gives the attribute of omniscience: “God is greater than our hearts and knows all things” (1 John 3:20); “Lord, you know all things” (John 21:17); “known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world” (Acts 15:18); “all things are naked and opened (tetrachēlismena) unto the eye of him with whom we have to do” (Heb. 4:13; Rom. 11:33; Matt. 6:32; 1 Kings 8:39; Ps. 139:1–16; Isa. 46:10; Ezek. 11:5
William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology (ed. Alan W. Gomes; 3rd ed.; Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 286.
add
OMNISCIENCE. This term does not appear in Scripture in either its nominal or its adjectival form, yet the Bible teaches God’s complete knowledge of all things. God knows to an infinite degree all that is both actual and possible. His knowledge of the actual is seen in knowing when the sparrow falls (Mt 10:29); numbering the hairs of our head (Mt 10:30); knowing the thoughts and intents of the heart (Ps 139); foretelling the future, particularly that of His people Israel (Deut 30:1–8; Isa 65–66; Mal 3:16–4:6). God’s knowledge of the possible is seen in revelations of what could have been (Isa 48:18; Mk 11:21). God’s knowledge is eternal (Acts 15:18); incomprehensible (Ps 139:6; Rom 11:33); and all-wise (Ps 104:24; Eph 3:10)
R. Allan Killen, “Omniscience,” ed. Charles F. Pfeiffer, Howard F. Vos, and John Rea, The Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia (Moody Press, 1975).
You have drunk deeply from the well of Gnostic Manichean thought and have substituted the philosophy of man for true Christian theology
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Those were my words and that is exactly what your saying.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Where does scripture use the phrase "free acts"?