How does the Law and Jesus define ‘God’?

Aaron32

Active member
DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about Greek or Hebrew, I’m not a theologian. I strongly believe that the scripture is not for any private interpretation. I believe that though faith, study, and prayer God can give us a general understanding to allow His Word to define Itself. This is the methodology I used. Because I am Mormon, and Mormons do not claim to have authority solely by scripture (“sola scriptura”), any non-Mormon standard of measurement would probably fail. I invite any “problematic texts” to be introduced for discussion.

Some say that turning Jesus from ‘God’ into ‘god’ is desecrating his divinity.

But in Jesus own words, what did he say when he was accused of blaspheme?

John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.



Where does Jesus divinity originate?
He is the Only Begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
The Father declared Jesus is His Beloved Son at His baptism (Matt 3:17) and Transfiguration (Matt 17:5)
Jesus was given power over the flesh from the Father (John 17:2)
All that Jesus has, was given by His Father (John 17:7)
Jesus produces fruit to glorify the Father(John 8:54; 12:24,32; 17:1)

Here is the pattern: Gods word + God’s works (that align with God’s word) = Fruit produced through God’s power for God’s glory

If Jesus sought to become a ‘god’ unto himself, he would cease to be God.

Wherefore, if Jesus could be a God unto himself, why was turning the Stones into bread considered a temptation?
And what did he say when he was tempted? “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Again, it all goes back to God’s word.
Similarly, the pattern identified in Jesus told his followers on what conditions that they are no longer servants but friends. (aka. “Joint-heirs with Christ”)

The Word (man is pronounced clean)
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you….

+ God’s works through God’s power
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

= Fruit to God’s glory
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

This fulfills the Law:
Love God (John 15:9-11)
Love your neighbor (John 15:12-13)

It also aligns with the Plan of Salvation:

Through God’s Plan we are:
Justified (John 15:9-11)
Sanctified (John 15:12-13)
Glorified (John 15:14)

Moses 6:59-62:
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

So, if you believe Jesus is of lesser importance because He is the one and only ‘god’ given all things from the Father, it just means that you do not understand and lack faith in God’s word.

Thus, acknowledging Jesus’ divinity is not desecrating Him, but rather, the Father is exalted and glorified to a greater extent.
Thus, The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost isn’t just the name of God who we worship, it’s a record of the lineage of authority. Just as Jehovah was the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

Who do we worship? The terms ‘God’/‘gods’ in the Bible:
Exodus 20:
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Meaning: This is not saying other ‘gods’ don’t exist, but Israel’s God is the Lord that delivered them from bondage.

1 Corinthians 8:
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
(Meaning: idols aren’t real, they are things of our own creation/imagination)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
(Meaning: Other legitimate ‘gods’ exist)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(Meaning: There is one God of all things, by Christ He created all things. We worship the Father in the name of the Son. )

P.S. - “Mormonism” is often dismissed for being “polytheist”. Regardless of how you interpret that term, it is a man made construct of imperfect generalization. The same “Monotheism”, or “Henotheism”. But if you throw away man-made labels, ideologies, and “-isms”, and rely strictly on Gods word to interpret itself, the truth can be seen and it is perfectly congruent.

P.P.S. - Do you honestly believe Jesus’ divinity changes because of the case of the ‘g’? It’s that a perfect example of “the letter” killing “the spirit” of the Law?
 

The Prophet

Active member
DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about Greek or Hebrew, I’m not a theologian. I strongly believe that the scripture is not for any private interpretation. I believe that though faith, study, and prayer God can give us a general understanding to allow His Word to define Itself. This is the methodology I used. Because I am Mormon, and Mormons do not claim to have authority solely by scripture (“sola scriptura”), any non-Mormon standard of measurement would probably fail. I invite any “problematic texts” to be introduced for discussion.

Some say that turning Jesus from ‘God’ into ‘god’ is desecrating his divinity.

But in Jesus own words, what did he say when he was accused of blaspheme?

John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.



Where does Jesus divinity originate?
He is the Only Begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
The Father declared Jesus is His Beloved Son at His baptism (Matt 3:17) and Transfiguration (Matt 17:5)
Jesus was given power over the flesh from the Father (John 17:2)
All that Jesus has, was given by His Father (John 17:7)
Jesus produces fruit to glorify the Father(John 8:54; 12:24,32; 17:1)

Here is the pattern: Gods word + God’s works (that align with God’s word) = Fruit produced through God’s power for God’s glory

If Jesus sought to become a ‘god’ unto himself, he would cease to be God.

Wherefore, if Jesus could be a God unto himself, why was turning the Stones into bread considered a temptation?
And what did he say when he was tempted? “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Again, it all goes back to God’s word.
Similarly, the pattern identified in Jesus told his followers on what conditions that they are no longer servants but friends. (aka. “Joint-heirs with Christ”)

The Word (man is pronounced clean)
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you….

+ God’s works through God’s power
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

= Fruit to God’s glory
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

This fulfills the Law:
Love God (John 15:9-11)
Love your neighbor (John 15:12-13)

It also aligns with the Plan of Salvation:

Through God’s Plan we are:
Justified (John 15:9-11)
Sanctified (John 15:12-13)
Glorified (John 15:14)

Moses 6:59-62:
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

So, if you believe Jesus is of lesser importance because He is the one and only ‘god’ given all things from the Father, it just means that you do not understand and lack faith in God’s word.

Thus, acknowledging Jesus’ divinity is not desecrating Him, but rather, the Father is exalted and glorified to a greater extent.
Thus, The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost isn’t just the name of God who we worship, it’s a record of the lineage of authority. Just as Jehovah was the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

Who do we worship? The terms ‘God’/‘gods’ in the Bible:
Exodus 20:
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Meaning: This is not saying other ‘gods’ don’t exist, but Israel’s God is the Lord that delivered them from bondage.

1 Corinthians 8:
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
(Meaning: idols aren’t real, they are things of our own creation/imagination)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
(Meaning: Other legitimate ‘gods’ exist)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(Meaning: There is one God of all things, by Christ He created all things. We worship the Father in the name of the Son. )

P.S. - “Mormonism” is often dismissed for being “polytheist”. Regardless of how you interpret that term, it is a man made construct of imperfect generalization. The same “Monotheism”, or “Henotheism”. But if you throw away man-made labels, ideologies, and “-isms”, and rely strictly on Gods word to interpret itself, the truth can be seen and it is perfectly congruent.

P.P.S. - Do you honestly believe Jesus’ divinity changes because of the case of the ‘g’? It’s that a perfect example of “the letter” killing “the spirit” of the Law?
The Book of Mormon is clear, Jesus who was God from eternity became man
 

Aaron32

Active member
You are dodging the issue yet again.
The issue is not "how many gods do you WORSHIP?"
The issue is "How many gods EXIST?"

Mormonism says "many gods exist" ("plurality of gods", or "polytheism").
On the sole basis of polytheism, Mormonism is wrong? Do you have a scripture for that.?
Please show me where it says "polytheism" in the Bible.

The Bible teaches that only ONE god exists.
No, it teaches God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost exist.
Also, any steward of any stewardship is a god.

First, let's see what Joseph Smith taught:
Agreed, I used to have a problem with the statement myself, until I actually to a raw look at the Bible.

Well, as it turns out, GOD can (and has) "contradicted" it, and we have done so MANY times, and Mormons simply run away from all these passages:

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he  is  God;  there is  none else besides him.

That's because the Father appoint his son heir of all things from the Beginning by divine investiture (Heb 1:1-6; Col 1:15-19)

Deut. 4:39
 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is  none else.
Yes, because the Heavens and Earth were created BY Jesus Christ.

Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

Correct. Speaking to Israel. Jesus, appointed all things by his Father, is Jehovah. They needn't obey any other God.

2 Sam. 7:22
Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
That's true. Only Jesus was the only begotten of the Father, and also received flesh. The one and only "God-man".

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
Exactly, Jesus is the rock.

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that  the LORD  is  God,  and that  there is  none else.
Correct. He is the way, the truth, and the Life.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Right. ME neither.

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
I'm not exactly certain how this one is relevant to the OP.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

No God was formed. There is no scriptural account of the Father or Jesus being formed. That's cultural teachings.

Isa. 44:6
 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and  besides me  there is  no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is  no God;  I know not  any.

Correct. There is no God BESIDE Him. Jesus is our Alpha and Omega.

 I am the LORD, and there is none else,there is  no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Yep. Jesus is the Firstborn, nobody else.

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is  no God else besides me;  a just God and a Saviour; there is  none besides me.  22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I  am  God, and  there is  none else.
Sounds about right. Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Isa. 46:9
 Remember the former things of old: for  I  am  God, and there is  none else;  I am God, and there is none like me,
Answered this already above.

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Yep. The Lord is King!

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Yep.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Yep. Same point made above.

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that  there is none other God but one.
Correct. See the OP above this post.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Better put your faith in action, huh?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
So you're denying that the Father is the God of the Old Testament?
Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament. All the Son does is to glorify His Father.

<sigh>
More dodging of my questions.

Let's try again:

Are you denying that the Father is the God of the Old Testament?:


Check one:

[_]. Yes, I deny that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.
[_]. No, I affirm that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.
 

Aaron32

Active member
<sigh>
More dodging of my questions.

Let's try again:

Are you denying that the Father is the God of the Old Testament?:


Check one:

[_]. Yes, I deny that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.
[_]. No, I affirm that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.
No man cometh unto the Father but by the Son.
But to be clear, See how "God" is defined in the OP. God the Father appointed The Son to be the God for Israel.
Jesus was "I AM". Sooo...

Also, false dillemmas are dishonest. Sometime concepts require greater description.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I really don't know how to respond to this, as you didn't actually address ANY of the passages I brought up. You simply converted them into some strange different text, and responded to THAT instead of what the text actually says.

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he  is  God;  there is  none else besides him.

That's because the Father appoint his son heir of all things from the Beginning by divine investiture (Heb 1:1-6; Col 1:15-19)

You didn't actually ADDRESS what this says, "the LORD he his God, there is none else".
Mormons don't believe that.
Mormons believe the are MANY other gods besides the Father.

So you didn't address this at all, you simply went on some random tangent about "divine investiture", which is NOWHERE mentioned in the passage.

Theo1689 said:
Deut. 4:39
 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is  none else.
Yes, because the Heavens and Earth were created BY Jesus Christ.

It says "there is none else", other than God.
But Mormons don't believe that.
They believe there are MANY gods.
But you didn't address that.
You simply mentioned "created BY Jesus Christ", which this passage does NOT talk about at all.

Theo1689 said:
Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

Correct. Speaking to Israel. Jesus, appointed all things by his Father, is Jehovah. They needn't obey any other God.

Again, you dodge the question and instead insert an artificial and false context.
This passage is NOT about "who they need to obey".
This is about who EXISTS.

"There IS no God with me."
"IS" is about EXISTENCE, not "obedience".

Theo1689 said:
2 Sam. 7:22
Theo1689 said:
Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
That's true. Only Jesus was the only begotten of the Father, and also received flesh. The one and only "God-man".

This says there is only a god, and "neither is there any ... besides thee".
That means ONLY ONE GOD.

You start talking about "Jesus" and "begotten" and "Father" and "flesh", of which NONE of those ideas are in this passage. This passage is not about ANY of those things, it's about the existence of ONLY ONE GOD.

Theo1689 said:
2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
Exactly, Jesus is the rock.

Again, NO mention of "Jesus".
And NO addressing of"who is God, save the LORD".
It's a rhetorical question, meaning that there is ONLY ONE God, and there is none "who is God", other than He. But you IGNORE that.

Theo1689 said:
1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that  the LORD  is  God,  and that  there is  none else.
Correct. He is the way, the truth, and the Life.

But Mormons REJECT this. They say that there are MANY others like God, who are gods themselves. So you didn't address this.

Theo1689 said:
1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Right. ME neither.

This says there is only one God. There is no God "besides" Him.

You look only at the part of "none like thee", and IGNORE the rest of the verse.
You ignore it because it contradicts Mormonism.

Theo1689 said:
2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
I'm not exactly certain how this one is relevant to the OP.
[/quote

"... the true God..."
This tells us that there is only ONE "true God", and any others who claim to be gods are FALSE gods.

Theo1689 said:
Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

No God was formed. There is no scriptural account of the Father or Jesus being formed. That's cultural teachings.

You miss the point, and try to get around the plain meaning by inserting the false Mormon doctrine of "eternal progression" onto the passage. You're not allowed to do that.

Theo1689 said:
Isa. 44:6

 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and  besides me  there is  no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is  no God;  I know not  any.

Correct. There is no God BESIDE Him. Jesus is our Alpha and Omega.

"No god BESIDES Him".
Meaning, "No god OTHER THAN him".
He is the one who is god.

But Mormons don't believe that.
And this contradicts Mormonism.

Theo1689 said:

 I am the LORD, and there is none else,  there is  no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Yep. Jesus is the Firstborn, nobody else.

Again, you ignore what is ACTUALLY said, "there is no god besides [other than] me".
And you insert "Jesus" and "firstborn", which this passage isn't even about.

Theo1689 said:
Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is  no God else besides me;  a just God and a Saviour; there is  none besides me.  22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I  am  God, and  there is  none else.
Sounds about right. Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Again, this makes NO mention of "Jesus".

And it says, "there is no god else besides me", clearly saying that ONLY ONE GOD exists, which CONTRADICTS and REFUTES Mormonism.

Theo1689 said:
Isa. 46:9
 Remember the former things of old: for  I  am  God, and there is  none else;  I am God, and there is none like me,
Answered this already above.

Nope.
You DODGED it already above.

Theo1689 said:
Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Yep. The Lord is King!

"the TRUE God".
Meaning that any other god is a FALSE GOD.
There is only ONE "true god", contradictory to Mormonism.

Theo1689 said:
Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Yep.

So you've rejected Mormonism, then?
Because this directly refutes it.
"none else" is God.
Mormons believe that MANY others are gods.

Theo1689 said:
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Yep. Same point made above.

There is ONLY ONE GOD ("There is none other but he".)
This refutes Mormonism, and you can't address it.

Theo1689 said:
1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that  there is none other God but one.
Correct. See the OP above this post.

The phrase "there is NONE OTHER GOD but one" is VERY clear.
And it refutes Mormonism, which teaches that there are MANY gods.

Theo1689 said:
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Better put your faith in action, huh?

Again, you IGNORE the "there is ONE God", and only comment on the "faith" part.
Mormons constantly IGNORE the parts of Scripture that refute their false theology and that they can't address.

Thank you for proving that to everyone, so well!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No man cometh unto the Father but by the Son.
But to be clear, See how "God" is defined in the OP. God the Father appointed The Son to be the God for Israel.
Jesus was "I AM". Sooo...

Also, false dillemmas are dishonest. Sometime concepts require greater description.

How is it a "false dilemma"?
 

Aaron32

Active member
I really don't know how to respond to this, as you didn't actually address ANY of the passages I brought up. You simply converted them into some strange different text, and responded to THAT instead of what the text actually says.
It's called "reframing the argument". But all your points have been addressed.

You didn't actually ADDRESS what this says, "the LORD he his God, there is none else".
Mormons don't believe that.
Mormons believe the are MANY other gods besides the Father.

So you didn't address this at all, you simply went on some random tangent about "divine investiture", which is NOWHERE mentioned in the passage.
AFTER Paul states idols aren't real:
1 Cor 8:
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

How is that statement any different than: "the LORD he his God, there is none else"
And yes, Mormons DO believe that: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/pages/the-living-christ-the-testimony-of-the-apostles?lang=eng

It says "there is none else", other than God.
But Mormons don't believe that.
They believe there are MANY gods.
But you didn't address that.
You simply mentioned "created BY Jesus Christ", which this passage does NOT talk about at all.
Yes. They do!
Can we simply bypass Jesus Christ and worship the Father?
No, we must enter in by the gate.
And yes, like Paul, we believe there are "gods many, and Lords many"
As far as Creator, I was referring to the portion of the scriptures that says " the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath"

Again, you dodge the question and instead insert an artificial and false context.
This passage is NOT about "who they need to obey".
This is about who EXISTS.

"There IS no God with me."
"IS" is about EXISTENCE, not "obedience".
Again, you refer to polytheism as a sole criteria to discount the view. The Bible acknowledge "other gods"

"There IS no God with me."
That's absolutely correct. Did Jehovah co-op with another son of God? Absolutely not.

This says there is only a god, and "neither is there any ... besides thee".
That means ONLY ONE GOD.

You start talking about "Jesus" and "begotten" and "Father" and "flesh", of which NONE of those ideas are in this passage. This passage is not about ANY of those things, it's about the existence of ONLY ONE GOD.
I think you missed a primary point: Define GOD ONLY using the Bible. How is "God" defined in the Bible?

I'm reading the Bible as a whole. Parsing out bits and pieces is how you get "My car is red. A firetruck is red. Therefore, my car is a firetruck." Which, by the end, you say "ah well, God's a mystery. We just need to accept that." (referring to the Althansian Creed)

Again, NO mention of "Jesus".
And NO addressing of"who is God, save the LORD".
It's a rhetorical question, meaning that there is ONLY ONE God, and there is none "who is God", other than He. But you IGNORE that.
God is unchanging. Who do you think is "the rock"?

But Mormons REJECT this. They say that there are MANY others like God, who are gods themselves. So you didn't address this.
I was actually planning on making a formal response, but after doing a few round with you this morning, I didn't have the energy quite honestly.
But I will, if you're like.

In the D&C they say they will be priests and kings unto the Most High God.
This says there is only one God. There is no God "besides" Him.
Was there more than one Jehovah? No.

You look only at the part of "none like thee", and IGNORE the rest of the verse.
You ignore it because it contradicts Mormonism.
ok: "neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
Honestly, I don't understand the part about the ears. I haven't heard with my ears either. So, I'll leave that for you to tell me if you think its relevant.
As far as "none like thee" - No one is like Jesus - He is the Only Begotten and the Firstborn. There's a lot more details I can add, but I think you get the gist.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
There's a lot more details I can add, but I think you get the gist.

Nope.
You've made no sense at all, since you are simply ignoring all those passages, and simply spewing Mormonism.

But I thank you for your efforts. Every Christian who is proselytized by Mormons, and finds this forum while searching for what Mormon believe, will clearly see the mental gymnastics that Mormons have to go through to try to defend their false beliefs.

So thank you for that! :)
 

Aaron32

Active member
How is it a "false dilemma"?
The options were:
[_]. Yes, I deny that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.
[_]. No, I affirm that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.

I'm not a lawyer, but your options are too simplistic. I answer one of your options, and then you hold it against me.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The options were:
[_]. Yes, I deny that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.
[_]. No, I affirm that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.

I'm not a lawyer, but your options are too simplistic. I answer one of your options, and then you hold it against me.

Unless you are intentionally giving me the wrong answer, how can I hold your answer "against" you?

Again, thank you for demonstrating to the world the games Mormons play to avoid answering simple questions.
 

zerinus

Active member
DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about Greek or Hebrew, I’m not a theologian.
Except that you are now behaving and acting "theologically". You are acting as a "theologian". You are engaging in a "theological activity".
I strongly believe that the scripture is not for any private interpretation. I believe that though faith, study, and prayer God can give us a general understanding to allow His Word to define Itself. This is the methodology I used.
That is what "theologians" do, or claim to be doing. You are acting the role of a theologian, while disclaiming that activity. That is an inconsistent position to hold.
Because I am Mormon, and Mormons do not claim to have authority solely by scripture (“sola scriptura”), any non-Mormon standard of measurement would probably fail.
While it is true that Latter-day Saints claim a standard of "authority" other than scripture, LDS theology is still very much scripture based. Mormonism is still very much "sola scriptura". The only difference is that we have a wider scripture base than traditional Christianity. Our scriptures are not confined to the Bible, but includes other books.
I invite any “problematic texts” to be introduced for discussion.
"Problematic texts" about what? "Problematic texts" could potentially be infinite. Ar you inviting people to an infinite debate?
Some say that turning Jesus from ‘God’ into ‘god’ is desecrating his divinity.
It probably would be. Capitalization is a convention of the English language. Greek and Hebrew doesn't have capitalization. In the book of Doctrine and Covenants, I discovered 9 instances in which Jesus declares, "I am God" (capital "G"). So which convention are you going to adopt, the Church's, or are you going to invent your own?
But in Jesus own words, what did he say when he was accused of blaspheme?
In the rest of your post, you have basically predetermined what your theology will be, and then tried to read it into the Bible; rather than starting with a clean slate, and letting scripture speak for itself. That is not a good way of doing theology.
 

Aaron32

Active member
Nope.
You've made no sense at all, since you are simply ignoring all those passages, and simply spewing Mormonism.

But I thank you for your efforts. Every Christian who is proselytized by Mormons, and finds this forum while searching for what Mormon believe, will clearly see the mental gymnastics that Mormons have to go through to try to defend their false beliefs.

So thank you for that! :)
Well, I'm sorry you don't understand. I gave it my best shot.

Is it mental gymnastics? Maybe. But it's congruent.
I can't say the same for the doctrine of the Trinity.

They needn't go to this forum to find it - just show them "The Living Christ" on the lds website.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Well, I'm sorry you don't understand. I gave it my best shot.

<chuckle>

Again, there's that predominant attitude of "Mormon superiority".

It's always, "You don't understand it."
It's never, "I didn't do a good job explaining it."

Is it mental gymnastics? Maybe. But it's congruent.
I can't say the same for the doctrine of the Trinity.

<Chuckle>

And again, because you can't defend your bankrupt Mormonism, you have to make insulting comments on Christianity every chance you get.

Once again, EVERY aspect of the Trinity is Biblical, and Mormons agree with ALL of them, except that they deny that only one god exists, which is clearly and repetitively taught in Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 43-46, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc. etc.

So your claim is simply false.

Now since this is the MORMONISM forum, let's stick to discussing MORMONISM, instead of trying to attack the beliefs of others.

They needn't go to this forum to find it - just show them "The Living Christ" on the lds website.

ROTFLOL!

Like they should trust anything on the LDS website!
But again, Mormons try to limit the information their proselytes get... Just like the JW's, the Internet is Kryptonite to Mormons.
 

Aaron32

Active member
While it is true that Latter-day Saints claim a standard of "authority" other than scripture, LDS theology is still very much scripture based. Mormonism is still very much "sola scriptura". The only difference is that we have a wider scripture base than traditional Christianity. Our scriptures are not confined to the Bible, but includes other books.
I used to think that as well, until I figured out why JS was rebaptized after the Church was organized.

"Problematic texts" about what? "Problematic texts" could potentially be infinite. Ar you inviting people to an infinite debate?
Yes. Using scripture, not baseless opinion.

It probably would be. Capitalization is a convention of the English language. Greek and Hebrew doesn't have capitalization. In the book of Doctrine and Covenants, I discovered 9 instances in which Jesus declares, "I am God" (capital "G"). So which convention are you going to adopt, the Church's, or are you going to invent your own?
Ok. Verbally speak the word "God" to someone next to you. Then, verbally speak the word "god" to someone next to you. Ask them if they could tell if you were speaking about 2 different things.

In the rest of your post, you have basically predetermined what your theology will be, and then tried to read it into the Bible; rather than starting with a clean slate, and letting scripture speak for itself. That is not a good way of doing theology.
Hmmm....well, I came up with the same conclusion Joseph Smith did, so....I'll let you decide what to do with that information.

The ironic thing is, people are more interested in the commentary in my header and footer, rather than embracing the actual argument.
Like, I'm not hearing (for example) - "no, this scripture is completely out of context" "Your way off on this, this means that because..."

Atleast I got Theo to like your post. I think you guys have atleast one thing in common.
 

Aaron32

Active member
<chuckle>

Again, there's that predominant attitude of "Mormon superiority".

It's always, "You don't understand it."
It's never, "I didn't do a good job explaining it."
You thanked me for my effort. That means we're done conversing, right?

And again, because you can't defend your bankrupt Mormonism, you have to make insulting comments on Christianity every chance you get.
Theo, don't take it personal. I'm sharing what I believe. It's not you. It's not Christianity. It's not even an insult. One makes sense to me, the other doesn't.

Once again, EVERY aspect of the Trinity is Biblical, and Mormons agree with ALL of them, except that they deny that only one god exists, which is clearly and repetitively taught in Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 43-46, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc. etc.

So your claim is simply false.
EXACTLY!!!!! EXACTLY!!!! EXACTLY!!!!
I can't stress this enough. It's all DEPENDS on how you define the term "GOD."
Jehovah is the only God to Israel, who is the Son of the Father, who we worship in the Son's name. Jesus is LORD. What do you not get about this concept?

Like they should trust anything on the LDS website!
But again, Mormons try to limit the information their proselytes get... Just like the JW's, the Internet is Kryptonite to Mormons.
Haha! Yeah, I mean why trust their leaders? Why trust their scriptures? Why trust their members?
What's left? Oh yes! The King Follett discourse - that - we can trust. Case closed.

I'll leave it to Z for the mudslinging. Unless you have anything of substance to say, I'm out.
 
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