How does the Law and Jesus define ‘God’?

The Prophet

Active member
Not by name. That word was invented by Joseph Smith. The definition can be found in the Bible. ;)
It is not found in the Bible or Book of Mormon anywhere, not even definition:)
39: "And just as there are different kinds of seeds and plants, so also there are different kinds of flesh. Humans, animals, fish, and birds are all different." this must mean 4 different glories :)
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
It is not found in the Bible or Book of Mormon anywhere, not even definition
Yes. By definition.
"The scriptures compare the glory of the telestial kingdom to the glory of the stars." From gospel topics manual.

1 Cor 15:41 "...another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
 

The Prophet

Active member
Yes. By definition.
"The scriptures compare the glory of the telestial kingdom to the glory of the stars." From gospel topics manual.

1 Cor 15:41 "...another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
The gospel manual is not LDS canon :)
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The gospel manual is not LDS canon
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
That's the best you've got?

D&C 76:81 "And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament."

Here you have some canon and within the canon, telestial is defined as glory is that of the glory of the stars. Now you might not see the connection, but that's not my fault. It's your choice.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes. By definition.
"The scriptures compare the glory of the telestial kingdom to the glory of the stars." From gospel topics manual.

1 Cor 15:41 "...another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
So, the different "glories" between stars means the telestial kingdom? Paul uses "glory" here to mean "brightness." Some stars are brighter than others. And the sun is much brighter than the moon.

This whole passage is about Paul contrasting the glory of the earthly with the glory of the heavenly and spiritual. That is all. It is NOT about the three supposed glories of heaven--that is just Mormon eisegesis, in an attempt to find something, anything, to support its false doctrines in this area.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
So, the different "glories" between stars means the telestial kingdom? Paul uses "glory" here to mean "brightness." Some stars are brighter than others. And the sun is much brighter than the moon.
So? What's your point. There are three glories or "brightnesses", Sun, Moon and stars and among the stars they differ in brightness but their relative brightness in comparison with that of the Sun and Moon are significant. The point of my post is that the word Telestial is defined within the Bible as that of the stars or the third glory or brightness.

I think that is evident from the text.
This whole passage is about Paul contrasting the glory of the earthly with the glory of the heavenly and spiritual. That is all. It is NOT about the three supposed glories of heaven--that is just Mormon eisegesis, in an attempt to find something, anything, to support its false doctrines in this area.
regardless of what you think Paul was doing makes no difference to the definition of the word Telestial being found within the New Testament text.
 

The Prophet

Active member
So? What's your point. There are three glories or "brightnesses", Sun, Moon and stars and among the stars they differ in brightness but their relative brightness in comparison with that of the Sun and Moon are significant. The point of my post is that the word Telestial is defined within the Bible as that of the stars or the third glory or brightness.

I think that is evident from the text.

regardless of what you think Paul was doing makes no difference to the definition of the word Telestial being found within the New Testament text.
The passage is referring to the Body we have now which is a terrestrial, earthy mortal body versus a body that believers get at the resurrection which is a heavenly celestial, immortal body. Has nothing to do with different heavens, and the Book of Mormon is silent on that teaching :)
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The passage is referring to the Body we have now which is a terrestrial, earthy mortal body versus a body that believers get at the resurrection which is a heavenly celestial, immortal body. Has nothing to do with different heavens, and the Book of Mormon is silent on that teaching
Again, so? The passage contains the definition of Telestial just as Joseph Smith described it. He coined the word that means a glory like that of the stars. Paul used Celestial and Terrestrial and then didn't use a term but described the third glory as that of the stars.

It's not really that hard to connect the dots.
 

Aaron32

Active member
Why consider this? There's no doctrine that anyone is going to go back to a telestial kingdom.
In some ways, I agree with you. They simply remain in Telestial Glory.

D&C 76:
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.

If they don’t go back to the Telestial Glory, what are they “cast down to”?
 

Aaron32

Active member
What?? There's more? Is heaven like a cheap infomercial where we might get two for the price of one?
????
Aaron, I'm not going to continue these inane discussion threads. You are starting to play the game where we just go in endless loops.
Im trying to get to a place of understanding, and you’re just trying to have a debate where you’re right and I’m wrong. So, yeah, not my thing.
I'm just going to announce that your arguments do not represent our beliefs, or at least, they don't represent mine. Anyone who has followed your discussion threads will see other members of our church question if you are a Mormon.
Agreed. It’s quite clear we have different beliefs. I have my postulations based on personal revelation that I consider hidden mysteries. I don’t attribute to claim all of the church believes it. I just have different perspective. If that’s not Mormon, so be it. I don’t believe we get saved based on what we label ourselves. I base my belief on scripture.

You do serve an important example of LDS beliefs, which also happens to be true of most other religions as well. One can be a member of our church and still hold beliefs that are not wholly Mormon beliefs. It serves to really confuse our critics. So, thank you for that.
I simply base my understanding on the what’s taught in the Standard Words. I can see both sides. Christian teach a very good message Mormons that believe like you. And unfortunately, they deny the power of God. It’s like you’re both right, and you’re both wrong.
I understand truths that transcend the endless debate loops on this board. I think the people that remain on this board get more joy out of the contention rather than simply accepting the truth. When you find yourself in agreement, then you have to go find something else to go do with yourself.
It all hinges on how “Mormonism” is defined. You and Magdelena seem to prefer to accept Ed Decker’s definition in the Godmakers. If that’s what it means to be Mormon - count me out. Good luck trying to defend that, and I pity anyone who tries to convince you otherwise, and I pity you never being able to validate our critic’s point that salvation is not EARNED. But hey, you like work, that’s why you’re here, right?
 

The Prophet

Active member
In some ways, I agree with you. They simply remain in Telestial Glory.

D&C 76:
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.

If they don’t go back to the Telestial Glory, what are they “cast down to”?
Notice how Elias is Elijah and Esaias is Isaiah, yet Joseph Smith has them in the D&C as different :)
 

Bonnie

Super Member
So? What's your point. There are three glories or "brightnesses", Sun, Moon and stars and among the stars they differ in brightness but their relative brightness in comparison with that of the Sun and Moon are significant. The point of my post is that the word Telestial is defined within the Bible as that of the stars or the third glory or brightness.

MY point is that this passage has zero to do with three levels of heaven, and Paul is simply contrasting the glory of the mortal world "body" with the glory of the immortal body.



regardless of what you think Paul was doing makes no difference to the definition of the word Telestial being found within the New Testament text.
Telestial is nowhere found in the NT--neither mentioned BY NAME, or who goes to it, after death. Not even a hint. Mormonism is practicing eisegesis with Scripture, desperately trying to force it to support its unbiblical doctrines. That is a mistake. Let God's word say what it actually says, not try to make it say what it does NOT.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
If they don’t go back to the Telestial Glory, what are they “cast down to”?
The verse says they are cast down to hell. To elaborate on that a bit, it is to suffer for their own sins because they would not accept the blood of Christ. Christ explains it this way: They will suffer even as I did, which suffering caused me to bleed from every pore.

I understood your statement to mean that Celestial beings and those who accepted Christ would go back to the Telestial Glory. If that's not what you meant, then I apologize. I personally believe that they will. I believe we will ascend and descend that latter for a very long time before we get it right, but that's not what we teach. That's a whole 'nother topic which is beyond the scope of this forum and any forum for that matter. I taught it once in priesthood class. It didn't go well. Needless to say, there are many Mormons who can't think outside the box and some subjects are best left alone. This is one of them.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Why would we be accountable to them, if, according to you, you were never assigned to it?
I believe I dropped this topic. I don't understand what your question is. I don't know who you think I was never assigned to ... it? It doesn't seem that anything fruitful will ever come out of the discussion with you. I've made my point in a previous statement. I'm too lazy to go look it up, but my position has been declared.

Thank you for your time though.
 

Magdalena

Active member
????

Im trying to get to a place of understanding, and you’re just trying to have a debate where you’re right and I’m wrong. So, yeah, not my thing.

Agreed. It’s quite clear we have different beliefs. I have my postulations based on personal revelation that I consider hidden mysteries. I don’t attribute to claim all of the church believes it. I just have different perspective. If that’s not Mormon, so be it. I don’t believe we get saved based on what we label ourselves. I base my belief on scripture.


I simply base my understanding on the what’s taught in the Standard Words. I can see both sides. Christian teach a very good message Mormons that believe like you. And unfortunately, they deny the power of God. It’s like you’re both right, and you’re both wrong.
I understand truths that transcend the endless debate loops on this board. I think the people that remain on this board get more joy out of the contention rather than simply accepting the truth. When you find yourself in agreement, then you have to go find something else to go do with yourself.
It all hinges on how “Mormonism” is defined. You and Magdelena seem to prefer to accept Ed Decker’s definition in the Godmakers. If that’s what it means to be Mormon - count me out. Good luck trying to defend that, and I pity anyone who tries to convince you otherwise, and I pity you never being able to validate our critic’s point that salvation is not EARNED. But hey, you like work, that’s why you’re here, right?
I haven't paid much attention to Ed Decker. My comments and opinions come from my own experiences in mormonism, being taught, and teaching it to others. My own research. And generations of mormonism in my family.

I‘m pretty clear that what I was taught was how mormonism came down originally from Joseph Smith, et al. I’ve watched the changes over the years when mormon leaders were trying to make it more palatable to more people. There’s been a lot of denial of basic doctrine and practices.

But it became clear to me that I could no longer defend what mormonism actually is. It didn’t come from Christ.

No matter what objections you might have about Christian church doctrines or interpretations, that doesn’t change the fact that mormonism is based on false doctrine from false prophets.

For myself, I decided that I would just trust God’s word (Bible) and Spirit. I don’t have to believe what anyone else says.

But one thing I know is that you can’t follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
That's exactly my point of view.
Im trying to get to a place of understanding
I have determined that that is not going to happen.
Agreed. It’s quite clear we have different beliefs. I have my postulations based on personal revelation that I consider hidden mysteries. I don’t attribute to claim all of the church believes it.
Yeah? Well, none of the church believes that Joseph was a failed prophet and much of our doctrine arises from the KFD which you reject. Come to think of it, I'm beginning to suspect that you are a member of the Community of Christ. Your ideas seem to be more aligned with their beliefs than those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I simply base my understanding on the what’s taught in the Standard Words. I can see both sides.
That's not a problem. I can see both sides as well. But that does not mean that both sides are right. IMO, you go beyond seeing and take it a step further.

The facts are, Polygamy was necessary and God the Father was once a man on an earth who lived and died just like Jesus did for us and is a resurrected being. To be clear, when I say God the Father, I mean the literal father of Jesus Christ. I do not know that that being is El Elyon, the most High God, but I believe that when we worship God the Father, we worship El Elyon, such is the state of their oneness. We are not the only earth that has been formed with man placed on it. We are not the first earth. I believe it is arrogance to believe that we are the extent and limit of God's work. I honestly don't think anyone who believes God to be all-powerful and all-knowing to limit himself to 7000 years of human existence and that that will be the end of it. But we are all like sheep and just believe what we are told, never thinking, never questioning... even your hidden mysteries need to consider the ongoing work of Elohim (which is a more appropriate word than God in this context).

You don't need to see both sides to consider the one side we are on. What we need to do is expose the logical sense of all the dots and how they connect. Our critics are so disconnected they can't make heads or tails of anything from the scriptures, what good does it do to coddle their erroneous beliefs and try to find a common ground between their beliefs and ours. We are either right or we are wrong and if you think we are wrong, then you're in the wrong place.

And unfortunately, they deny the power of God. It’s like you’re both right, and you’re both wrong.
It can never be, "you're both right" but it can be "you're both wrong". There is only one truth but many lies.
You and Magdelena seem to prefer to accept Ed Decker’s definition in the Godmakers.
Wrong. LOL. I accept the KFD. You don't. I don't know who Ed Decker is.
I pity you never being able to validate our critic’s point that salvation is not EARNED. But hey, you like work, that’s why you’re here, right?
As I said, I don't know who Decker is or what he says in the Godmakers. I've heard of it, but never heard it or read it. I'm sure that Decker has it all wrong, but I do believe that in order to be one with God, we have to have the mind of God and in order to have the mind of God, we have to have all things equal, power, knowledge, and sight. None of those make us gods though. What makes us gods is the power to have children throughout the eternities.

As far as salvation earned? I don't believe we can do anything to earn it ourselves. I've never offered such an idea. But I do believe that we have to do something different than those who will not obtain salvation. Whatever that difference is, it's an action that must be consistent with our beliefs. That's work and if that work earns us the favor of someone who can make salvation happen, then I'll accept that we earned it, not salvation, but we earned favor even if that is nothing more than accepting Jesus Christ as our savior, but I believe it's much more than that. I believe it costs us our whole lives, our whole being, and our way of thinking. King Lamoni, I believe, said it best, "I would give away all my sins to know [God]".

If that's what you call earning salvation, then so be it.
 
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