How Eternal Life is Maintained

JonHawk

Active member
Hi shnarkle,

I don't want to venture too off the subject of the tree of life. However, let's just note that all of the wicked are described as turning to ashes:

Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV) “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the Lord of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.​
Since you judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life through Christ, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.” {AA 173.3}​
“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” They rejoiced exceedingly that Christ recognized them as the children of God, and with grateful hearts they heard the word. Those who believed were zealous in communicating the gospel message to others, and thus “the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.”{EGW AA 173.4}​

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Rom 11
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Hi shnarkle,

I don't want to venture too off the subject of the tree of life. However, let's just note that all of the wicked are described as turning to ashes:

Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)​
“For behold, the day is coming,​
Burning like an oven,​
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”​
Says the Lord of hosts,​
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.​
2 But to you who fear My name​
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise​
With healing in His wings;​
And you shall go out​
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.​
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”​
Says the Lord of hosts.​
God bless!
Again, this holds true for everybody. Many have noted that Satan personifies the ego, and they're all just abstract constructions of the mind. They're not real to begin with. All identities are fraudulent except Christ's.
 

Wrenage

Member
No one wants to die. No one especially wants to die forever. So what does the Bible say about eternal life? Let's start "in the beginning . . ."
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.​

The title of this tree 🌳 gives away its purpose--LIFE. In the verses above we're informed the reason why God specifically banished "man" from the Garden of Eden: "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, AND LIVE FOREVER." The purpose for the tree 🌳 then is apparently to provide eternal life!

Considering this fact in relation to the new creation we see that the Tree of Life will be restored to the new Earth. Let's flip to the last book of the Bible:

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

The Bible is clear that only God is innately immortal. Speaking of God Paul writes that He "ALONE is immortal and lives in unapproachable light." No human has this innate immortality, nor will they ever. According to the Bible saved humanity will gain immortality in their being allowed once again to reach out their hands to take from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

A correct understanding of the purpose of the tree of life 🌳 will also unravel the belief that those who are not redeemed will live forever. If it's true that only God is immortal (and it is), and if it's also true that the redeemed maintain eternal life by eating from the tree of life (and it is), then the obvious conclusion is that those who do not have access to the tree of life 🌳 will not live forever.

I pray this helps.

Are you saying that if a sinless Adam and Even did not eat from the Tree of Life, they would have died, because they needed the Tree of Life to continue to live?

The Bible says that death is a result of sin. The Bible said Adam and Eve would die if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), etc.

For the above premise to work, it requires additional implications that scripture is silent on:

1. Adam and Eve, even in a sinless state, could have died if they did not eat from the Tree of Life. Is that what you believe?

2. In that case, not eating from the Tree of Life was just as much of a sin as eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
 

Icyspark

Active member
Are you saying that if a sinless Adam and Even did not eat from the Tree of Life, they would have died, because they needed the Tree of Life to continue to live?

The Bible says that death is a result of sin. The Bible said Adam and Eve would die if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 2:17). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), etc.

For the above premise to work, it requires additional implications that scripture is silent on:

1. Adam and Eve, even in a sinless state, could have died if they did not eat from the Tree of Life. Is that what you believe?

2. In that case, not eating from the Tree of Life was just as much of a sin as eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.


Hi Wrenage,

That's an interesting premise. What I noticed is that your premise does nothing to engage the texts presented in the opening post. You just waved your hand in a cursory dismissal and jumped right into your tangential rebuttal.
  1. My premise is that God "ALONE is immortal." Do you agree with that?
  2. My secondary point is that God says He placed a cherubim with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life so that man did not eat from it and "live forever." Do you agree with that?
Now, if you agree with my first and second premises above, then try working out your own contention from there. If someone has access to a tree which will allow them to "live forever" what makes you think they'd be like, nah, bruh!

I pray this helps.
 

Icyspark

Active member
Again, this holds true for everybody. Many have noted that Satan personifies the ego, and they're all just abstract constructions of the mind. They're not real to begin with. All identities are fraudulent except Christ's.


Hi shnarkle,

What I'm hearing you saying is that the entire narrative of Scripture is abstract and that the only thing real therein is Christ. All the stories starting with Adam and Eve, to Noah and the flood, to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, to King David, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, to Peter, James and John. They're all just abstract stories? Is that what you're saying? Spell it out for me.
 

Wrenage

Member
Hi Wrenage,

That's an interesting premise. What I noticed is that your premise does nothing to engage the texts presented in the opening post. You just waved your hand in a cursory dismissal and jumped right into your tangential rebuttal.
  1. My premise is that God "ALONE is immortal." Do you agree with that?
  2. My secondary point is that God says He placed a cherubim with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life so that man did not eat from it and "live forever." Do you agree with that?
Now, if you agree with my first and second premises above, then try working out your own contention from there. If someone has access to a tree which will allow them to "live forever" what makes you think they'd be like, nah, bruh!

I pray this helps.

I didn't wave my hand at anything. I jumped to what I found most interesting. I don't particularly care to do the back-and-forth on 1 Timothy 6:16. People can use Google for that. I found the implications I haven't seen before much more intriguing. But, for the sake of your position, let's say, sure, God alone is immortal and he placed Cherubim in the garden.

Moving on...

Apparently Seventh Day Adventists believe that a sinless Adam and Eve would have died if they didn't eat from the Tree of Life...

And, if death is a result of sin, then a Seventh Day Adventist apparently believes that not eating from the Tree of Life was a sin...

After the fall, man could have eaten from the Tree of Life and lived forever, and if Seventh Day Adventists believe that man is purely a physical being, that must mean the Tree of Life had some sort of medicinal qualities that prevented dying. But that idea develops issues if one plays out the logic. If Adam and Even needed to eat from the Tree of Life to not die before they fell into sin, then they were already dying somehow before they sinned, and they needed to eat from the Tree of Life to prevent death from happening.

Playing it out further, does a Seventh Day Adventist then believe people in heaven need to eat the Tree of Life to live forever? If they don't eat from the Tree of Life, will they die? In that case, again, there'd be death inside of them that the Tree of Life is somehow preventing, and death isn't allowed in heaven because there is no sin in heaven.

Lots of implications are opened up that are interesting to look at.

From a scripture standpoint, the Bible does not say Adam and Even needed to eat from the Tree of Life to maintain their physical state-of-being before the fall. The Bible only says that after the fall, Adam and Eve could have eaten from the Tree of Life and lived forever. So to say Adam and Eve needed to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever in a sinless state is going beyond scripture.
 

Icyspark

Active member
I didn't wave my hand at anything. I jumped to what I found most interesting. I don't particularly care to do the back-and-forth on 1 Timothy 6:16. People can use Google for that. I found the implications I haven't seen before much more intriguing. But, for the sake of your position, let's say, sure, God alone is immortal and he placed Cherubim in the garden.

Moving on...

Apparently Seventh Day Adventists believe that a sinless Adam and Eve would have died if they didn't eat from the Tree of Life...

And, if death is a result of sin, then a Seventh Day Adventist apparently believes that not eating from the Tree of Life was a sin...

After the fall, man could have eaten from the Tree of Life and lived forever, and if Seventh Day Adventists believe that man is purely a physical being, that must mean the Tree of Life had some sort of medicinal qualities that prevented dying. But that idea develops issues if one plays out the logic. If Adam and Even needed to eat from the Tree of Life to not die before they fell into sin, then they were already dying somehow before they sinned, and they needed to eat from the Tree of Life to prevent death from happening.

Playing it out further, does a Seventh Day Adventist then believe people in heaven need to eat the Tree of Life to live forever? If they don't eat from the Tree of Life, will they die? In that case, again, there'd be death inside of them that the Tree of Life is somehow preventing, and death isn't allowed in heaven because there is no sin in heaven.

Lots of implications are opened up that are interesting to look at.

From a scripture standpoint, the Bible does not say Adam and Even needed to eat from the Tree of Life to maintain their physical state-of-being before the fall. The Bible only says that after the fall, Adam and Eve could have eaten from the Tree of Life and lived forever. So to say Adam and Eve needed to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever in a sinless state is going beyond scripture.


Hi Wrenage,

If God "ALONE is immortal," then how would you propose that humans "live forever"?

God bless.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Hi shnarkle,

What I'm hearing you saying is that the entire narrative of Scripture is abstract and that the only thing real therein is Christ. All the stories starting with Adam and Eve, to Noah and the flood, to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, to King David, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, to Peter, James and John. They're all just abstract stories? Is that what you're saying? Spell it out for me.
All narratives are abstract. The biblical authors are presenting a fundamental aspect of reality. Beginning with Adam, we see the first man who identifies with God. The first human being aware of God's presence within them, but he then identifies with the earth his body is made from so much so that this identification must die along with the body.

As long as one views themselves as a separate individual, they cannot see Christ. A separate individual is an oxymoron. Everyone in the New Testament narratives are believers because of what they witnessed, and what they witness is an illustration of Christ's teachings.

Those who see themselves as possessing a body are still lost whereas those who see that they are the temple in which Christ dwells are able to see Christ in everyone around them. Just as the Father is in the Son, and the Son in the Father so too are those who follow Christ in him, and he in them. So when you have seen a follower of Christ, you have seen Christ just as those who see Christ see the Father.


This is not to say that there are not historical personages found in scripture, but rather to say that history does not set anyone free. Only the truth can set you free. In other words, they don't have to be historical figures in order to see the truth within the narratives. Chances are that those who look at them as historical figures will tend to miss the eternal truths within them.
 

Buzzard

Active member
Hi Wrenage,
Now, if you agree with my first and second premises above, then try working out your own contention from there. If someone has access to a tree which will allow them to "live forever" what makes you think they'd be like, nah, bruh!
Well; Icy;
why have you turned from the Tree of Life to eat of the other tree
know ye not :
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."​

what was that said about men that do so
"Dead men Walking"
 

Buzzard

Active member
Icy tells Lotham
Icyspark said:
Hi Lottan,I quoted the verse after Proverbs 26:4. Why are you rejecting Solomon's progressive wisdom?
Ezekiel 3:16-19
At the end of seven days the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.



Matt.24:4​
And Jesus answered and said unto them,​
Take heed that no man deceive you.​
5 For many shall come in my name,
saying,
I am Christ; and shall deceive many.​
.
So I ask again;
and ICY;
just "Who" appointed you as a "Watchman" for the House of Israel
 
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Icyspark

Active member
Icy tells Lotham
Icyspark said:
Hi Lottan,I quoted the verse after Proverbs 26:4. Why are you rejecting Solomon's progressive wisdom?
Ezekiel 3:16-19
At the end of seven days the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.



Matt.24:4​
And Jesus answered and said unto them,​
Take heed that no man deceive you.​
5 For many shall come in my name,
saying,
I am Christ; and shall deceive many.​
.
So I ask again;
and ICY;
just "Who" appointed you as a "Watchman" for the House of Israel


Thanks for the bump (y)
 

Buzzard

Active member
Matt.24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name,
saying,
I am Christ; and shall deceive many
.
.
So I ask again;
and ICY;
just "Who" appointed you as a "Watchman" for the House of Israel
Thanks for the bump (y)

Icy, if you cannot, or won't say
"Who" appointed you as a "Watchman"
what does that tell you ???????
 

Icyspark

Active member
Matt.24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name,
saying,
I am Christ; and shall deceive many
.
.
So I ask again;
and ICY;
just "Who" appointed you as a "Watchman" for the House of Israel


Icy, if you cannot, or won't say
"Who" appointed you as a "Watchman"
what does that tell you ???????


It tells me you're trolling 👽 and I'm not biting.

But thanks for the bump!
 

Wrenage

Member
Hi Wrenage,

If God "ALONE is immortal," then how would you propose that humans "live forever"?

God bless.

The Bible spells out the work flow of death. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Romans 5:12).

The fall into sin had to happen before death could happen.

Therefore, death was not part of the equation until Adam and Eve sinned. So I would say sinless Adam and Eve were created to not die. Once they sinned, death entered the equation for them and the entire human race.

Seventh Day Adventists appear to say that God created Adam and Eve with death baked into them, and Adam and Eve prevented death from happening to them by eating from the Tree of Life.

It's an entirely different system to contemplate. I don't think it is compatible with Romans 5:12, though.

I don't see any particular problem with 1 Timothy 6:16 in regards to why Adam and Even could be created to not die. Going to Biblehub for a quick reference of multiple Bible commentaries supports that. The common interpretation is that God alone possesses immortality as part of his nature. Human and angel immortality is obtained through God's creation of them. They don't possess it in and of themselves.

I think I'll just stick with the standard orthodox teaching on 1 Timothy 6:16. It all fits together. Whereas saying Adam and Even needed to eat from the Tree of Life while in a sinless state to not die creates an issue where death is present before sin.
 

Icyspark

Active member
The Bible spells out the work flow of death. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Romans 5:12).

The fall into sin had to happen before death could happen.

Therefore, death was not part of the equation until Adam and Eve sinned. So I would say sinless Adam and Eve were created to not die. Once they sinned, death entered the equation for them and the entire human race.

Seventh Day Adventists appear to say that God created Adam and Eve with death baked into them, and Adam and Eve prevented death from happening to them by eating from the Tree of Life.


Hi Wrenage,

I suppose I should clarify this point. To my knowledge Seventh-day Adventists do not specifically have a teaching on the Tree of Life. SDA's certainly do not believe that the unsaved will continue living after Christ's third return to this planet. The wicked are never given eternal life (or access to the tree of life so they can "live forever."). Thus after they receive their punishment they will cease to exist.

Both sin and death were unknown before Lucifer's transgression. Does that mean it was impossible for sin to arise?

I'd say that God created Adam and Eve with immortality baked out of them since God "ALONE has immortality."


It's an entirely different system to contemplate. I don't think it is compatible with Romans 5:12, though.

I don't see any particular problem with 1 Timothy 6:16 in regards to why Adam and Even could be created to not die. Going to Biblehub for a quick reference of multiple Bible commentaries supports that. The common interpretation is that God alone possesses immortality as part of his nature. Human and angel immortality is obtained through God's creation of them. They don't possess it in and of themselves.

I think I'll just stick with the standard orthodox teaching on 1 Timothy 6:16. It all fits together. Whereas saying Adam and Even needed to eat from the Tree of Life while in a sinless state to not die creates an issue where death is present before sin. [No. Death would only arise if someone decided, "Hey, I think I'll go for 1000 years without eating from the tree I know will allow me to continue to live." Seems rather unlikely, huh?]


Your premise indicates that God alone has immortality but He implants it in others, thus making the "alone" aspect of His immortality nonsensical. Either He alone has immortality or He alone does not have immortality. With you the latter seems to be true. I don't think that fits together at all.

In your supposedly orthodox view what is the purpose of the tree of LIFE?

I pray this helps.
 

Wrenage

Member
Hi Wrenage,

I suppose I should clarify this point. To my knowledge Seventh-day Adventists do not specifically have a teaching on the Tree of Life. SDA's certainly do not believe that the unsaved will continue living after Christ's third return to this planet. The wicked are never given eternal life (or access to the tree of life so they can "live forever."). Thus after they receive their punishment they will cease to exist.

Both sin and death were unknown before Lucifer's transgression. Does that mean it was impossible for sin to arise?

I'd say that God created Adam and Eve with immortality baked out of them since God "ALONE has immortality."





Your premise indicates that God alone has immortality but He implants it in others, thus making the "alone" aspect of His immortality nonsensical. Either He alone has immortality or He alone does not have immortality. With you the latter seems to be true. I don't think that fits together at all.

In your supposedly orthodox view what is the purpose of the tree of LIFE?

I pray this helps.

If a person has to "maintain" eternal life, then they don't have eternal life. They have "regular" life prolonged by maintenance. Take away the maintainence, and the life ends, which is death.

Having to "maintain" eternal life in the Garden of Eden pre-sin and in heaven post-sin, is to have death in both places without sin. It essentially makes sinless Adam and Eve and people in heaven vampires. They are the living dead. If they ingest the right substance on the right schedule, then they have "eternal" life.

I wouldn't speculate too much on the exact purpose of the Tree of Life unless the Bible clearly spells it out. There are details God doesn't always provide. What the Bible does tell us is that Christ is eternal life to all who believe...not the Tree of Life. To look to the Tree of Life as the source of eternal life would be idolatry, I suppose.

If one wants to take the Seventh Day Adventist stand on 1 Timothy 6:16, I don't see much difference between their point of view and mine. They simply muddy the same waters.

SDAs say God can't implant immortality in man through creation because only God is immortal. They then turn around and say God can implant immortality in man through digestion...even though only God is immortal.

If God truly is ALONE immortal, as SDAs claim, then there should be no immortality in man at all, period, full stop — either via creation or digestion.
 

JonHawk

Active member
How Eternal Life is Maintained
Hi Wrenage,

Your premise indicates that God alone has immortality but He implants it in others, thus making the "alone" aspect of His immortality nonsensical. Either He alone has immortality or He alone does not have immortality. With you the latter seems to be true. I don't think that fits together at all.
In unity of the Spirit.

That they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. John 17
 
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