How Eternal Life is Maintained

[Common Tater]

Hi Common Tater,

Tell me more about John 3:16, especially the part about, "whoever believes in him should not perish . . ." There are many people who have believed in Him who have perished, thus this text requires some nuancing in order to understand it correctly.

If you have Jesus then ultimately you have life, because He is life. You don't have immortal life built into you. Jesus will give the redeemed access to the tree of life when He takes them with Him to heaven.

In John 6:35 Jesus says, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty." If you go with a literal reading of this verse you are compelled to believe that if you have a come to Jesus moment then you "will never go hungry" and you will "never be thirsty." I'm surmising that you've had regular occasions to be both.

The problem here is that you are dismissing the explicit texts which indicate that God ALONE is immortal and are seeking to overturn this clear imperative in favor of believing that everyone is inherently immortal. What then is the purpose of the tree of life? Is it a literal tree? Or are you going to claim the tree is hypothetical or theoretical?

I pray this helps.

No, I am not dismissing the fact that God alone is immortal. I am simply accepting the Bible at face value when it tells me I have eternal life now. I believe John 3:16 when it tells me I will not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Pitbull]

No one wants to die. No one especially wants to die forever. So what does the Bible say about eternal life? Let's start "in the beginning . . ."

​

Genesis 3:22​

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.​

The title of this tree ? gives away its purpose--LIFE. In the verses above we're informed the reason why God specifically banished "man" from the Garden of Eden: "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, AND LIVE FOREVER." The purpose for the tree ? then is apparently to provide eternal life!

Considering this fact in relation to the new creation we see that the Tree of Life will be restored to the new Earth. Let's flip to the last book of the Bible:

Revelation 2:7​

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.​

The Bible is clear that only God is innately immortal. Speaking of God Paul writes that He "ALONE is immortal and lives in unapproachable light." No human has this innate immortality, nor will they ever. According to the Bible saved humanity will gain immortality in their being allowed once again to reach out their hands to take from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

A correct understanding of the purpose of the tree of life ? will also unravel the belief that those who are not redeemed will live forever. If it's true that only God is immortal (and it is), and if it's also true that the redeemed maintain eternal life by eating from the tree of life (and it is), then the obvious conclusion is that those who do not have access to the tree of life ? will not live forever.

I pray this helps.

The word translated immortality (Strong's Greek 110) in the 1 Timothy 6 passage you site occurs three times in the New Testament. The other two times it occurs is in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.

42So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natu0ral, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shallf also bear the image of the man of heaven
50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It says the dead in Christ are going to rise imperishable, bearing the image of the man of heaven and clothed in the same immortality that God has.
That is exciting!
I didn't see anything about needing to eat from the Tree of Life.

 

[Pitbull]

Are the angels immortal? Not according to what Paul says above. Can you prove from the bible angels are not immortal? Are there any verses which say that angels die? Is Gabriel dead?

Hi Formersda,
In Psalm 82 God(elohim Strong's Hebrew 430) is holding a Divine council and passing judgment on the gods(elohim Strong's Hebrew 430). In verses 6 and 7 He tells these members of his Divine council who are are gods, sons of the Most High that they will die like men and fall like any prince.

1God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2“How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

5They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”

8Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

Here's a link with a guy, Dr Michael S Heiser, who wrote his doctoral thesis based on this psalm that will explain things better than I can.

 

[e v e 21]

the problem is that though
the guy of the video had a find or two
he’s wrong about much…

 

[e v e 21]

he got too enamored of his ideas

 

[Pitbull]

the problem is that though
the guy of the video had a find or two
he’s wrong about much…

Hi eve 21,
Where do you think he's wrong? Be specific, and give me your evidence.

 

[e v e 21]

Hi eve 21,
Where do you think he's wrong? Be specific, and give me your evidence.

he was on a valid point about elohim
but then he didn’t realize some important points
such as the fallen ones created this earth, and the perishable body ,
and that God will destroy these as idols

I think he was anxious to fit in with
mainstream views and accepted some roman ideas
….

it’s probably too much detail on this thread
to discuss this corrupt earth in relation to
the elohim

and how Gods sons, will with christ
restore paradise, in the other reality.

his book title unseen realm hinted at it
but then he did not go far enough.

probably got spelled.

 

[Pitbull]

he was on a valid point about elohim
but then he didn’t realize some important points
such as the fallen ones created this earth, and the perishable body ,
and that God will destroy these as idols

I think he was anxious to fit in with
mainstream views and accepted some roman ideas
….

it’s probably too much detail on this thread
to discuss this corrupt earth in relation to
the elohim

and how Gods sons, will with christ
restore paradise, in the other reality.

his book title unseen realm hinted at it
but then he did not go far enough.

probably got spelled.

Please cite the scriptures for where the fallen ones (are they fallen elohim?)created the Earth and the perishable body. I believe Scripture. I'm wondering do you?

 

[Common Tater]

he was on a valid point about elohim
but then he didn’t realize some important points
such as the fallen ones created this earth, and the perishable body ,
and that God will destroy these as idols

That statement doesn't even last past the first verse in the Bible.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis1:1 KJV

In case you think that the claim made in Genesis 1:1 is an aberration:

You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the host of heaven worships You. Nehemiah 9:6

The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.
Acts 17:24

And: "In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:10

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Acts 11:3

"Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things; by Your will they exist and came to be."
Revelation 4:11

Now, can you show me from the Bible where it says that the angels fell before Creation?

 

[e v e 21]

God made Eden,
not this earth…
this corrupted earth resulted after adam betrayed God
and is made as our prison

I never said when angels fell.

 

[Icyspark]

That statement doesn't even last past the first verse in the Bible.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis1:1 KJV

In case you think that the claim made in Genesis 1:1 is an aberration:

You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the host of heaven worships You. Nehemiah 9:6

The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.
Acts 17:24

And: "In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:10

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Acts 11:3

"Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things; by Your will they exist and came to be."
Revelation 4:11

Now, can you show me from the Bible where it says that the angels fell before Creation?

Hi Common Tater,

This is a serious problem. When one portrays themselves as a Christian but cannot/will not adhere to biblical Christianity then it is merely belief in whatever nonsense pops into their heads. Seriously, if a person rejects one of the most fundamental and well known verses in the Bible then it's all downhill from there.

God bless!

 

[Pitbull]

God made Eden,
not this earth…
this corrupted earth resulted after adam betrayed God
and is made as our prison

I never said when angels fell.

Actually in Genesis 2:4 it says the LORD God made the earth and the heavens

4These are the generations
of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Then in Genesis 2: 8 it says the LORD God planted a garden in Eden.

8And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

The word translated LORD(Strong's Hebrew 3068 Yah-weh) is the proper name of God. According to Scripture the LORD God(Yah-weh elohim) made Eden, the Earth and the heavens

You don't seem to believe what Scripture says.
I'm sorry you think you're living in a prison.
Perhaps your unbelief has put you there.

 

[Common Tater]

God made Eden,
not this earth…
this corrupted earth resulted after adam betrayed God
and is made as our prison

I never said when angels fell.

I suggest you read the verses I posted again, Let's look at Nehemiah:


You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the host of heaven worships You. Nehemiah 9:6

God created everything, not just Eden, everything.

Let's look at what you posted again:

he was on a valid point about elohim
but then he didn’t realize some important points
such as the fallen ones created this earth, and the perishable body ,
and that God will destroy these as idols

You have implied that the angels fell before the creation of the Earth. I am asking you to provide me with biblical support that the angels fell before creation. Here's a hint. You can't. The Bible is silent on the subject of when they fell.

 

[e v e 21]

God created the eden land

this earth was later..
..a corruption because of adam.
Death.

You have implied that the angels fell before the creation of the Earth.

no. never said that. you assumed it based on your interpretation. I never said or implied such
…

 

[Common Tater]

God created the eden land

this earth was later..
..a corruption because of adam.
Death.


no. never said that. you assumed it based on your interpretation. I never said or implied such
…

Please show from the Bible where this Earth was created after the Garden of Eden. Please show from the Bible that it was the fallen angels that created it.

 

[e v e 21]

Please show from the Bible where this Earth was created after the Garden of Eden. Please show from the Bible that it was the fallen angels that created it.

to be more clear, i said fallen ones, not angels….
actually it was adam together with the satanic realm who did it (these crimes) and who works for them….

the ‘lucifer chapter’ is about adam.

 

[e v e 21]

the satanic realm (mystery babylon)
did not invade eden
and then get nothing out of that.…


they stole…

and will not be forgiven

and will never be able to invade paradise again

 

[Common Tater]

to be more clear, i said fallen ones, not angels….
actually it was adam together with the satanic realm who did it (these crimes) and who works for them….

the ‘lucifer chapter’ is about adam.

What is the satanic realm. And you have not shown me from the Bible where the "fallen ones" created the Earth. I have shown you several texts that say that it was God who created not just the Earth, but everything.

 

[Common Tater]

he was on a valid point about elohim
but then he didn’t realize some important points
such as the fallen ones created this earth, and the perishable body ,
and that God will destroy these as idols

I think he was anxious to fit in with
mainstream views and accepted some roman ideas
….

it’s probably too much detail on this thread
to discuss this corrupt earth in relation to
the elohim

and how Gods sons, will with christ
restore paradise, in the other reality.

his book title unseen realm hinted at it
but then he did not go far enough.

probably got spelled.

The ideas in this post seem to have a lot more to with gnostics like Valentius or the beliefs found in a book like A Course in Miracles rather than the Holy Bible.

 

[Icyspark]

The word translated immortality (Strong's Greek 110) in the 1 Timothy 6 passage you site occurs three times in the New Testament. The other two times it occurs is in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.

42So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natu0ral, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shallf also bear the image of the man of heaven
50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It says the dead in Christ are going to rise imperishable, bearing the image of the man of heaven and clothed in the same immortality that God has.
That is exciting!
I didn't see anything about needing to eat from the Tree of Life.

Hi Pitbull,

Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately nothing you wrote directly addresses anything in the opening post. You started off addressing "the word translated immortality" but then didn't do much with it. I'd like to see how this word translated as "immortality" is not properly understood in its relationship to God alone. I wonder if you took a moment to look up the word "alone"? If not then I'll supply it for your consideration:

μόνος (monos)​

Strong: G3332​

GK: G3668​

without accompaniment, alone, Mt. 14:23; 18:15; Lk. 10:40; singly existent, sole, only, Jn. 17:3; lone solitary, Jn. 8:29; 16:32; alone in respect of restriction, only, Mt. 4:4; 12:4; alone in respect of circumstances, only, Lk. 24:18; not multiplied by reproduction, lone, barren, Jn. 12:24​

You don't get to dismiss the fact that God ALONE is immortal by appealing to a text which indicates that mortals will "put on immortality." How is this immortality put on? Is it embedded in our very being as it is with God ALONE? Or rather, it it put on by mortals being given access to the "tree of LIFE"? Additionally, the idea that immortality is "put on" should also indicate to you that the Adventist understanding on what happens to the wicked is correct. After all, how are the wicked going to live forever when they have not "put on immortality"?

• In your view what is the purpose of the tree of LIFE?
• In your view why did God banish Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:22)?
• In your view what is the connection between eating from the tree of LIFE and living forever (Genesis 3:22)?
• In your view why will the redeemed be given "the right to eat from the tree of LIFE" (Revelation 2:7)?

I pray this helps.