How Eternal Life is Maintained

Formersda

Active member
Hi Formersda,

Thank you for answering my questions and for now I won't belabor the individual points above.

You've acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." By "we" I presume you mean those who trust in Jesus as their personal Savior? If that's the case I wonder if you believe that unbelievers are likewise "granted eternal life through Jesus"? If not, then what do you believe happens to the wicked after Christ returns to set up His kingdom permanently on this Earth?
Do you agree this definition of eternal?

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Eternal
ETER'NAL, adjective [Latin oeternus, composed of oevum and ternus, oeviternus, Varro. The origin of the last component part of the word is not obvious. It occurs in diuturnus, and seems to denote continuance.]
1. Without beginning or end of existence.
The eternal God is thy refuge. Deuteronomy 33:27.
2. Without beginning of existence.
To know whether there is any real being, whose duration has been eternal
3. Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal.
That they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10.
What shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matthew 19:16.
Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7.
4. Perpetual; ceaseless; continued without intermission.
And fires eternal in thy temple shine.
5. Unchangeable; existing at all times without change; as eternal truth.
ETER'NAL, noun An appellation of God.

Do you agree where it is stated in the bible eternal that means eternal?
 

Icyspark

Active member
Do you agree this definition of eternal?

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Eternal
ETER'NAL, adjective [Latin oeternus, composed of oevum and ternus, oeviternus, Varro. The origin of the last component part of the word is not obvious. It occurs in diuturnus, and seems to denote continuance.]
1. Without beginning or end of existence.
The eternal God is thy refuge. Deuteronomy 33:27.
2. Without beginning of existence.
To know whether there is any real being, whose duration has been eternal
3. Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal.
That they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10.
What shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matthew 19:16.
Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7.
4. Perpetual; ceaseless; continued without intermission.
And fires eternal in thy temple shine.
5. Unchangeable; existing at all times without change; as eternal truth.
ETER'NAL, noun An appellation of God.

Do you agree where it is stated in the bible eternal that means eternal?


Hi Formersda,

As this pertains to the human condition and those who accept Jesus as their Savior, I agree with the third option: "Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal (but not innately so)." Obviously neither of the first two options would apply to created beings.

Since you ignored my previous questions, let me repeat them:
You've acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." By "we" I presume you mean those who trust in Jesus as their personal Savior? If that's the case I wonder if you believe that unbelievers are likewise "granted eternal life through Jesus"? If not, then what do you believe happens to the wicked after Christ returns to set up His kingdom permanently on this Earth?

Since God alone is immortal, is it your contention that death and dying have been part and parcel of God's universe since the beginning of all His creation? So none of the heavenly beings currently in existence have eternal life, but it will only be when believers are redeemed that God will impart some His innate immortality upon them, thus making Himself no longer "alone" in this Godly attribute? If so, your belief in this case is that you will be like God? As I recall this is something the devil brazenly hissed into Eve's ear, "You will be like God ..."
 

Formersda

Active member
Hi Formersda,

As this pertains to the human condition and those who accept Jesus as their Savior, I agree with the third option: "Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal (but not innately so)." Obviously neither of the first two options would apply to created beings.

Since you ignored my previous questions, let me repeat them:
You've acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." By "we" I presume you mean those who trust in Jesus as their personal Savior? If that's the case I wonder if you believe that unbelievers are likewise "granted eternal life through Jesus"? If not, then what do you believe happens to the wicked after Christ returns to set up His kingdom permanently on this Earth?

Since God alone is immortal, is it your contention that death and dying have been part and parcel of God's universe since the beginning of all His creation? So none of the heavenly beings currently in existence have eternal life, but it will only be when believers are redeemed that God will impart some His innate immortality upon them, thus making Himself no longer "alone" in this Godly attribute? If so, your belief in this case is that you will be like God? As I recall this is something the devil brazenly hissed into Eve's ear, "You will be like God ..."
You are putting words to my words which are not there, I just wanted to clarify the agreement on what eternal means. You have chosen point 3 “Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless;”

Daniel 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thes 1:9 “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

So to your above agreement of what eternal means, without end or duration. Do these verses state that unbelievers will suffer eternal punishment the same way believers will enjoy eternal life?
 

Icyspark

Active member
You are putting words to my words which are not there, I just wanted to clarify the agreement on what eternal means. You have chosen point 3 “Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless;”

Daniel 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thes 1:9 “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”


So to your above agreement of what eternal means, without end or duration. Do these verses state that unbelievers will suffer eternal punishment the same way believers will enjoy eternal life?

Hi Formersda,

No. The Bible says unbelievers will suffer eternal punishMENT. This is not at all the same as eternal punishING, which is what you are inferring from these texts. The results of the punishMENT will be eternal.

What kind of "loving" god is going to be punishING any creature endlessly for the sins of one short lifetime? That's not the God of the Bible. It is a "strange act" for Him to punish anyone and you'd have ppl believe that He's going to be punishING unbelievers through all eternity. That is a doctrine demons surely rejoice to see professed Christians promote as the truth about my loving God.

No. Unbelievers are not immortal and this just proves that your previous positing was nonsense as you're already predisposed to accept that humans innately are immortal (i.e. have an "immortal soul"), thus you do violence to the Scripture truth which proclaims that God ALONE is immortal. Tell me, at what point did God go from being "ALONE" with His immortality to being just one of innumerable immortals? How is it that you can acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus" and then go on to express adherence to this strange belief? Where does the Bible indicate that the wicked are "granted eternal life"? The fact is that it doesn't. Either God is loving--as He says--or he's a sadistic monster.

I pray this helps.
 

Formersda

Active member
Hi Formersda,

No. The Bible says unbelievers will suffer eternal punishMENT. This is not at all the same as eternal punishING, which is what you are inferring from these texts. The results of the punishMENT will be eternal.

What kind of "loving" god is going to be punishING any creature endlessly for the sins of one short lifetime? That's not the God of the Bible. It is a "strange act" for Him to punish anyone and you'd have ppl believe that He's going to be punishING unbelievers through all eternity. That is a doctrine demons surely rejoice to see professed Christians promote as the truth about my loving God.

No. Unbelievers are not immortal and this just proves that your previous positing was nonsense as you're already predisposed to accept that humans innately are immortal (i.e. have an "immortal soul"), thus you do violence to the Scripture truth which proclaims that God ALONE is immortal. Tell me, at what point did God go from being "ALONE" with His immortality to being just one of innumerable immortals? How is it that you can acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus" and then go on to express adherence to this strange belief? Where does the Bible indicate that the wicked are "granted eternal life"? The fact is that it doesn't. Either God is loving--as He says--or he's a sadistic monster.

I pray this helps.
lol your funny changing those words to what you want them to be you crack me up.

Definition of punishment “Punishment is the act of punishing someone or of being punished.”

So does the words punishment noted above mean punishing and Jesus did say for eternity. Are you trying to change Gods words?

The main issue is because you do t understand how our spirit is born again, because we are born dead, Ephesians 2. When we believe by faith our spirit is made alive and this is to eternal life. The ones who continue to be dead to sin will suffer eternal punishment.
 

Icyspark

Active member
lol your funny changing those words to what you want them to be you crack me up.

Definition of punishment “Punishment is the act of punishing someone or of being punished.”

So does the words punishment noted above mean punishing and Jesus did say for eternity. Are you trying to change Gods words?

The main issue is because you do t understand how our spirit is born again, because we are born dead, Ephesians 2. When we believe by faith our spirit is made alive and this is to eternal life. The ones who continue to be dead to sin will suffer eternal punishment.


Hi Formersda,

You're still ignoring the implications of your own affirmation. You said, "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." I don't believe you can defend this in the sense that true believers will innately have this immortality, but nevertheless it's something you've acknowledged that Jesus gives.

According to Paul, Jesus clothes His saints with immortality upon His return. Up to that time then they remain merely a mortal:

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must PUT ON immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this MORTAL has PUT ON IMMORTALITY, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Furthermore in Romans 2:7 Paul indicates that God's followers "seek glory, honor and immortality." In other words, Christians do not currently have something if they are seeking for it. How can you acknowledge that Jesus grants eternal life and then turn around and then likewise hold to the idea that unbelievers also have this immortality given(?) to them? If it's not given to them then you believe that it's innate within them and again we're back to doing violence to the fact that God ALONE is immortal. Tell me again, whose trying to change God's words?

The fact that no one but God is immortal is good news. It means that my God is not a monster and no mortal who is not "granted eternal life through Jesus"--because they never accepted Him as their Lord and Savior--will be tortured ad infinitum for the sins of one brief lifetime. That is a doctrine of demons. Everyone is currently mortal and there is no such thing as an immortal soul.

In Genesis 2:7 we read: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul, KJV)." A soul is merely a term to describe "a living being."

Dust + Breath/Spirit = Living soul/being

I pray this helps.
 

Formersda

Active member
Hi Formersda,

You're still ignoring the implications of your own affirmation. You said, "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." I don't believe you can defend this in the sense that true believers will innately have this immortality, but nevertheless it's something you've acknowledged that Jesus gives.

According to Paul, Jesus clothes His saints with immortality upon His return. Up to that time then they remain merely a mortal:

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must PUT ON immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this MORTAL has PUT ON IMMORTALITY, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Furthermore in Romans 2:7 Paul indicates that God's followers "seek glory, honor and immortality." In other words, Christians do not currently have something if they are seeking for it. How can you acknowledge that Jesus grants eternal life and then turn around and then likewise hold to the idea that unbelievers also have this immortality given(?) to them? If it's not given to them then you believe that it's innate within them and again we're back to doing violence to the fact that God ALONE is immortal. Tell me again, whose trying to change God's words?

The fact that no one but God is immortal is good news. It means that my God is not a monster and no mortal who is not "granted eternal life through Jesus"--because they never accepted Him as their Lord and Savior--will be tortured ad infinitum for the sins of one brief lifetime. That is a doctrine of demons. Everyone is currently mortal and there is no such thing as an immortal soul.

In Genesis 2:7 we read: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul, KJV)." A soul is merely a term to describe "a living being."

Dust + Breath/Spirit = Living soul/being

I pray this helps.
Hi Icy,

based on what your saying that our soul dies when our breath gives out, how do you explain John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he DIES’”
So is Jesius lying when He says we will live even if we die?

Jesus also quotes Exodus 3:6 in Mark 12:26,27, “But regarding the fact the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISSAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB?’”
”He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, you are greatly mistaken.”


How can God be a God to the living and quoting Abraham, Issac and Jacob if they are dead?

Oh yes Dust +breath/spirit = living soul/ being is an EGW quote and not in the Bible.

Again I state I have not said about immortality that is you Icy, but eternal life is eternal without ending and according to Jesus we have it now.
 

Common Tater

Active member
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13
 

Common Tater

Active member
Hi Icy,

based on what your saying that our soul dies when our breath gives out, how do you explain John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he DIES’”
So is Jesius lying when He says we will live even if we die?

Jesus also quotes Exodus 3:6 in Mark 12:26,27, “But regarding the fact the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISSAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB?’”
”He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, you are greatly mistaken.”


How can God be a God to the living and quoting Abraham, Issac and Jacob if they are dead?

Oh yes Dust +breath/spirit = living soul/ being is an EGW quote and not in the Bible.

Again I state I have not said about immortality that is you Icy, but eternal life is eternal without ending and according to Jesus we have it now.
Josephus on the beliefs of the Pharisees:

“They also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life. The latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but the former shall have the power to revive and live again,” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews: Book 18, Chapter 1, Section 2).

and

“They say that all souls are incorruptible; but that only the souls of good men are returned into bodies. The souls of bad are subject to eternal punishment,” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 2, Chapter 8, Section 14).

What did Paul, a Pharisee, believe?

Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. It is because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.” As soon as he had said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is neither a resurrection, nor angels, nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. Acts 23:6-8 BSB

Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 BSB

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Phillipians 1:21-24 BSB
 
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