How Eternal Life is Maintained

Hi Formersda,

Thank you for answering my questions and for now I won't belabor the individual points above.

You've acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." By "we" I presume you mean those who trust in Jesus as their personal Savior? If that's the case I wonder if you believe that unbelievers are likewise "granted eternal life through Jesus"? If not, then what do you believe happens to the wicked after Christ returns to set up His kingdom permanently on this Earth?
Do you agree this definition of eternal?

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Eternal
ETER'NAL, adjective [Latin oeternus, composed of oevum and ternus, oeviternus, Varro. The origin of the last component part of the word is not obvious. It occurs in diuturnus, and seems to denote continuance.]
1. Without beginning or end of existence.
The eternal God is thy refuge. Deuteronomy 33:27.
2. Without beginning of existence.
To know whether there is any real being, whose duration has been eternal
3. Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal.
That they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10.
What shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matthew 19:16.
Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7.
4. Perpetual; ceaseless; continued without intermission.
And fires eternal in thy temple shine.
5. Unchangeable; existing at all times without change; as eternal truth.
ETER'NAL, noun An appellation of God.

Do you agree where it is stated in the bible eternal that means eternal?
 
Do you agree this definition of eternal?

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Eternal
ETER'NAL, adjective [Latin oeternus, composed of oevum and ternus, oeviternus, Varro. The origin of the last component part of the word is not obvious. It occurs in diuturnus, and seems to denote continuance.]
1. Without beginning or end of existence.
The eternal God is thy refuge. Deuteronomy 33:27.
2. Without beginning of existence.
To know whether there is any real being, whose duration has been eternal
3. Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal.
That they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10.
What shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matthew 19:16.
Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7.
4. Perpetual; ceaseless; continued without intermission.
And fires eternal in thy temple shine.
5. Unchangeable; existing at all times without change; as eternal truth.
ETER'NAL, noun An appellation of God.

Do you agree where it is stated in the bible eternal that means eternal?


Hi Formersda,

As this pertains to the human condition and those who accept Jesus as their Savior, I agree with the third option: "Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal (but not innately so)." Obviously neither of the first two options would apply to created beings.

Since you ignored my previous questions, let me repeat them:
You've acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." By "we" I presume you mean those who trust in Jesus as their personal Savior? If that's the case I wonder if you believe that unbelievers are likewise "granted eternal life through Jesus"? If not, then what do you believe happens to the wicked after Christ returns to set up His kingdom permanently on this Earth?

Since God alone is immortal, is it your contention that death and dying have been part and parcel of God's universe since the beginning of all His creation? So none of the heavenly beings currently in existence have eternal life, but it will only be when believers are redeemed that God will impart some His innate immortality upon them, thus making Himself no longer "alone" in this Godly attribute? If so, your belief in this case is that you will be like God? As I recall this is something the devil brazenly hissed into Eve's ear, "You will be like God ..."
 
Hi Formersda,

As this pertains to the human condition and those who accept Jesus as their Savior, I agree with the third option: "Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal (but not innately so)." Obviously neither of the first two options would apply to created beings.

Since you ignored my previous questions, let me repeat them:
You've acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." By "we" I presume you mean those who trust in Jesus as their personal Savior? If that's the case I wonder if you believe that unbelievers are likewise "granted eternal life through Jesus"? If not, then what do you believe happens to the wicked after Christ returns to set up His kingdom permanently on this Earth?

Since God alone is immortal, is it your contention that death and dying have been part and parcel of God's universe since the beginning of all His creation? So none of the heavenly beings currently in existence have eternal life, but it will only be when believers are redeemed that God will impart some His innate immortality upon them, thus making Himself no longer "alone" in this Godly attribute? If so, your belief in this case is that you will be like God? As I recall this is something the devil brazenly hissed into Eve's ear, "You will be like God ..."
You are putting words to my words which are not there, I just wanted to clarify the agreement on what eternal means. You have chosen point 3 “Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless;”

Daniel 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thes 1:9 “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

So to your above agreement of what eternal means, without end or duration. Do these verses state that unbelievers will suffer eternal punishment the same way believers will enjoy eternal life?
 
You are putting words to my words which are not there, I just wanted to clarify the agreement on what eternal means. You have chosen point 3 “Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless;”

Daniel 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thes 1:9 “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”


So to your above agreement of what eternal means, without end or duration. Do these verses state that unbelievers will suffer eternal punishment the same way believers will enjoy eternal life?

Hi Formersda,

No. The Bible says unbelievers will suffer eternal punishMENT. This is not at all the same as eternal punishING, which is what you are inferring from these texts. The results of the punishMENT will be eternal.

What kind of "loving" god is going to be punishING any creature endlessly for the sins of one short lifetime? That's not the God of the Bible. It is a "strange act" for Him to punish anyone and you'd have ppl believe that He's going to be punishING unbelievers through all eternity. That is a doctrine demons surely rejoice to see professed Christians promote as the truth about my loving God.

No. Unbelievers are not immortal and this just proves that your previous positing was nonsense as you're already predisposed to accept that humans innately are immortal (i.e. have an "immortal soul"), thus you do violence to the Scripture truth which proclaims that God ALONE is immortal. Tell me, at what point did God go from being "ALONE" with His immortality to being just one of innumerable immortals? How is it that you can acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus" and then go on to express adherence to this strange belief? Where does the Bible indicate that the wicked are "granted eternal life"? The fact is that it doesn't. Either God is loving--as He says--or he's a sadistic monster.

I pray this helps.
 
Hi Formersda,

No. The Bible says unbelievers will suffer eternal punishMENT. This is not at all the same as eternal punishING, which is what you are inferring from these texts. The results of the punishMENT will be eternal.

What kind of "loving" god is going to be punishING any creature endlessly for the sins of one short lifetime? That's not the God of the Bible. It is a "strange act" for Him to punish anyone and you'd have ppl believe that He's going to be punishING unbelievers through all eternity. That is a doctrine demons surely rejoice to see professed Christians promote as the truth about my loving God.

No. Unbelievers are not immortal and this just proves that your previous positing was nonsense as you're already predisposed to accept that humans innately are immortal (i.e. have an "immortal soul"), thus you do violence to the Scripture truth which proclaims that God ALONE is immortal. Tell me, at what point did God go from being "ALONE" with His immortality to being just one of innumerable immortals? How is it that you can acknowledging that "we are granted eternal life through Jesus" and then go on to express adherence to this strange belief? Where does the Bible indicate that the wicked are "granted eternal life"? The fact is that it doesn't. Either God is loving--as He says--or he's a sadistic monster.

I pray this helps.
lol your funny changing those words to what you want them to be you crack me up.

Definition of punishment “Punishment is the act of punishing someone or of being punished.”

So does the words punishment noted above mean punishing and Jesus did say for eternity. Are you trying to change Gods words?

The main issue is because you do t understand how our spirit is born again, because we are born dead, Ephesians 2. When we believe by faith our spirit is made alive and this is to eternal life. The ones who continue to be dead to sin will suffer eternal punishment.
 
lol your funny changing those words to what you want them to be you crack me up.

Definition of punishment “Punishment is the act of punishing someone or of being punished.”

So does the words punishment noted above mean punishing and Jesus did say for eternity. Are you trying to change Gods words?

The main issue is because you do t understand how our spirit is born again, because we are born dead, Ephesians 2. When we believe by faith our spirit is made alive and this is to eternal life. The ones who continue to be dead to sin will suffer eternal punishment.


Hi Formersda,

You're still ignoring the implications of your own affirmation. You said, "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." I don't believe you can defend this in the sense that true believers will innately have this immortality, but nevertheless it's something you've acknowledged that Jesus gives.

According to Paul, Jesus clothes His saints with immortality upon His return. Up to that time then they remain merely a mortal:

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must PUT ON immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this MORTAL has PUT ON IMMORTALITY, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Furthermore in Romans 2:7 Paul indicates that God's followers "seek glory, honor and immortality." In other words, Christians do not currently have something if they are seeking for it. How can you acknowledge that Jesus grants eternal life and then turn around and then likewise hold to the idea that unbelievers also have this immortality given(?) to them? If it's not given to them then you believe that it's innate within them and again we're back to doing violence to the fact that God ALONE is immortal. Tell me again, whose trying to change God's words?

The fact that no one but God is immortal is good news. It means that my God is not a monster and no mortal who is not "granted eternal life through Jesus"--because they never accepted Him as their Lord and Savior--will be tortured ad infinitum for the sins of one brief lifetime. That is a doctrine of demons. Everyone is currently mortal and there is no such thing as an immortal soul.

In Genesis 2:7 we read: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul, KJV)." A soul is merely a term to describe "a living being."

Dust + Breath/Spirit = Living soul/being

I pray this helps.
 
Hi Formersda,

You're still ignoring the implications of your own affirmation. You said, "we are granted eternal life through Jesus." I don't believe you can defend this in the sense that true believers will innately have this immortality, but nevertheless it's something you've acknowledged that Jesus gives.

According to Paul, Jesus clothes His saints with immortality upon His return. Up to that time then they remain merely a mortal:

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must PUT ON immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this MORTAL has PUT ON IMMORTALITY, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Furthermore in Romans 2:7 Paul indicates that God's followers "seek glory, honor and immortality." In other words, Christians do not currently have something if they are seeking for it. How can you acknowledge that Jesus grants eternal life and then turn around and then likewise hold to the idea that unbelievers also have this immortality given(?) to them? If it's not given to them then you believe that it's innate within them and again we're back to doing violence to the fact that God ALONE is immortal. Tell me again, whose trying to change God's words?

The fact that no one but God is immortal is good news. It means that my God is not a monster and no mortal who is not "granted eternal life through Jesus"--because they never accepted Him as their Lord and Savior--will be tortured ad infinitum for the sins of one brief lifetime. That is a doctrine of demons. Everyone is currently mortal and there is no such thing as an immortal soul.

In Genesis 2:7 we read: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul, KJV)." A soul is merely a term to describe "a living being."

Dust + Breath/Spirit = Living soul/being

I pray this helps.
Hi Icy,

based on what your saying that our soul dies when our breath gives out, how do you explain John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he DIES’”
So is Jesius lying when He says we will live even if we die?

Jesus also quotes Exodus 3:6 in Mark 12:26,27, “But regarding the fact the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISSAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB?’”
”He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, you are greatly mistaken.”


How can God be a God to the living and quoting Abraham, Issac and Jacob if they are dead?

Oh yes Dust +breath/spirit = living soul/ being is an EGW quote and not in the Bible.

Again I state I have not said about immortality that is you Icy, but eternal life is eternal without ending and according to Jesus we have it now.
 
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13
 
Hi Icy,

based on what your saying that our soul dies when our breath gives out, how do you explain John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he DIES’”
So is Jesius lying when He says we will live even if we die?

Jesus also quotes Exodus 3:6 in Mark 12:26,27, “But regarding the fact the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISSAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB?’”
”He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, you are greatly mistaken.”


How can God be a God to the living and quoting Abraham, Issac and Jacob if they are dead?

Oh yes Dust +breath/spirit = living soul/ being is an EGW quote and not in the Bible.

Again I state I have not said about immortality that is you Icy, but eternal life is eternal without ending and according to Jesus we have it now.
Josephus on the beliefs of the Pharisees:

“They also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life. The latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but the former shall have the power to revive and live again,” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews: Book 18, Chapter 1, Section 2).

and

“They say that all souls are incorruptible; but that only the souls of good men are returned into bodies. The souls of bad are subject to eternal punishment,” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 2, Chapter 8, Section 14).

What did Paul, a Pharisee, believe?

Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. It is because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.” As soon as he had said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is neither a resurrection, nor angels, nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. Acts 23:6-8 BSB

Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 BSB

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Phillipians 1:21-24 BSB
 
Hi Icy,

based on what your saying that our soul dies when our breath gives out, how do you explain John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he DIES’”
So is Jesius lying when He says we will live even if we die?

Jesus also quotes Exodus 3:6 in Mark 12:26,27, “But regarding the fact the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISSAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB?’”
”He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, you are greatly mistaken.”


How can God be a God to the living and quoting Abraham, Issac and Jacob if they are dead?

Oh yes Dust +breath/spirit = living soul/ being is an EGW quote and not in the Bible.

Again I state I have not said about immortality that is you Icy, but eternal life is eternal without ending and according to Jesus we have it now.
Jesus said the following:

“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:19-31 NASB

Now, Adventist preachers will tell you that this was only a parable, that Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, and so even though souls continuing to exist after death isn't true, the Pharisees believed otherwise and so Jesus spoke to them in a way that they would understand. In other words, rather than correcting them, Jesus reinforced their belief in an afterlife by teaching a false doctrine. Does this make sense? He corrected the Pharisees on so many things, but not this? Where else can an Adventist show me from the Bible where Jesus taught truth mixed with falsehood?
 
Hi Icy,

based on what your saying that our soul dies when our breath gives out, how do you explain John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he DIES’”
So is Jesius lying when He says we will live even if we die?

Jesus also quotes Exodus 3:6 in Mark 12:26,27, “But regarding the fact the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISSAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB?’”
”He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, you are greatly mistaken.”


How can God be a God to the living and quoting Abraham, Issac and Jacob if they are dead?

Oh yes Dust +breath/spirit = living soul/ being is an EGW quote and not in the Bible.

Again I state I have not said about immortality that is you Icy, but eternal life is eternal without ending and according to Jesus we have it now.
Remember when Jesus walked on water?

When it was evening, the boat was in the middle of the sea, and He was alone on the land. Seeing them straining at the oars, for the wind was against them, at about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea; and He intended to pass by them. But when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out; Mark 6:47-49 NASB

It appears that the disciples believed in a continued existence after death.
 
Remember when Jesus walked on water?

When it was evening, the boat was in the middle of the sea, and He was alone on the land. Seeing them straining at the oars, for the wind was against them, at about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea; and He intended to pass by them. But when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out; Mark 6:47-49 NASB

It appears that the disciples believed in a continued existence after death.
Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.” Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary? “The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. “As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day. “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!” 1 Samuel 28:11-28 NASB

Adventists will try and tell you that the Witch of Endor summoned up a demon posing as Samuel. However, I suggest you read the text. This is never even remotely hinted at. The person summoned is identified as Samuel thru out the passage, not something like an entity posing as Samuel. In point of fact, the Bible tells us in this passage that Saule knew it was Samuel. The Bible is telling us that we have a continued existence after we die physically.
 
Hi Icy,

based on what your saying that our soul dies when our breath gives out, how do you explain John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he DIES’”
So is Jesius lying when He says we will live even if we die?

Jesus also quotes Exodus 3:6 in Mark 12:26,27, “But regarding the fact the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISSAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB?’”
”He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, you are greatly mistaken.”


How can God be a God to the living and quoting Abraham, Issac and Jacob if they are dead?

Oh yes Dust +breath/spirit = living soul/ being is an EGW quote and not in the Bible.

Again I state I have not said about immortality that is you Icy, but eternal life is eternal without ending and according to Jesus we have it now.
Adventists will tell you that Spirit (breath to an SDA) plus Body equals Soul. Is this what Paul teaches?

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NASB

Paul tells us that the Soul is distinct, that it is separate from the Spirit or the Body.

What about the words of Jesus, our Lord and Savior?

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 NASB

If a soul equals breath plus dody, how can one kill the body, but be unable to kill the soul? Jesus says that the soul exists apart from the body.
 
Hi Icy,

based on what your saying that our soul dies when our breath gives out, how do you explain John 11:25 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me will live even if he DIES’”
So is Jesius lying when He says we will live even if we die?


Hi Formersda,

It seems to me that I address all your questions with biblical responses and then you wave them off and then throw down a bunch more questions. You really need to grapple with the Bible concepts you've already received before jumping from one sinking premise to another one. For instance, you still haven't grappled with how you handle the fact that God ALONE is immortal. It seems to me that you want to kinda, sorta affirm this verity but then also deny it at the same time (aka, cognitive dissonance). Human beings in our current state are considered mortal (Job 4:17) and we seek immortality (Romans 2:7), which God gives only to the redeemed. You yourself have acknowledged this latter fact, but then your cognitive dissonance kicks back in where you attempt to hold onto contradictory ideas at the same time.

Your question above regarding Jesus's statement about living and dying is answered in the self same verse. Jesus says it, "I am the RESURRECTION..." Even if Lazarus wasn't resurrected that particular day, if he accepted Jesus as his Savior then he would be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ. Even though he died, he would live again. When? At the resurrection.

While we're on the topic of Lazarus, you'll notice that even though he was dead for three days he had zero to say about being taken away from heavenly bliss. You know why that is? Cuz, according to the Bible, "the dead know nothing." How much do they know? NOTHING. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Setting aside the cognitive dissonance with God alone being immortal, if mortal humans are also actually immortal then what use is this unending life if you're actually "dead" and "know nothing"?


Jesus also quotes Exodus 3:6 in Mark 12:26,27, “But regarding the fact the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISSAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB?’”
”He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, you are greatly mistaken.”

How can God be a God to the living and quoting Abraham, Issac and Jacob if they are dead?


So if your understanding of the above verses is correct, don't you suppose that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would be with the Lord right now? Aside from the fact that the Bible clearly says, "the dead know nothing," guess what it also says that the dead don't do? They don't praise God. Do you think it's possible for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be with God and not be praising Him?

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence.

Not only do they "not praise the Lord," but when they die they "go down into silence" 🤫 Why are they silent? Because, "the dead know nothing"—not even how to talk!

Jesus equated death with sleep. For Jesus—even though Lazarus was dead—to the Creator he was alive because Jesus is life. If Jesus says to the dead and rotting corpse of Lazarus, "Come forth!" He can reconstitute the missing life in less time than it took Him to say the words.


Oh yes Dust +breath/spirit = living soul/ being is an EGW quote and not in the Bible.

Again I state I have not said about immortality that is you Icy, but eternal life is eternal without ending and according to Jesus we have it now.


Really? It's sad that you claim to have been an Adventist but you are unfamiliar with the Bible texts which you insist do not exist.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [soul].

I wonder if you'd like to retract your accusation that the premise that dust + breath = living soul/being "is an EGW quote"?

Do you know that the Bible says that when we die this process is reversed?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (the Hebrew word translated here as "spirit" simply means "breath." See also how the CEB and CEV translations render this verse).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
Hi Formersda,

It seems to me that I address all your questions with biblical responses and then you wave them off and then throw down a bunch more questions. You really need to grapple with the Bible concepts you've already received before jumping from one sinking premise to another one. For instance, you still haven't grappled with how you handle the fact that God ALONE is immortal. It seems to me that you want to kinda, sorta affirm this verity but then also deny it at the same time (aka, cognitive dissonance). Human beings in our current state are considered mortal (Job 4:17) and we seek immortality (Romans 2:7), which God gives only to the redeemed. You yourself have acknowledged this latter fact, but then your cognitive dissonance kicks back in where you attempt to hold onto contradictory ideas at the same time.


I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
It seems to me that I address all your questions with biblical responses and then you wave them off and then throw down a bunch more questions. You really need to grapple with the Bible concepts you've already received before jumping from one sinking premise to another one. For instance, you still haven't grappled with how you handle the fact that God ALONE is immortal. It seems to me that you want to kinda, sorta affirm this verity but then also deny it at the same time (aka, cognitive dissonance). Human beings in our current state are considered mortal (Job 4:17) and we seek immortality (Romans 2:7), which God gives only to the redeemed. You yourself have acknowledged this latter fact, but then your cognitive dissonance kicks back in where you attempt to hold onto contradictory ideas at the same time.
=====================end SDA Matra

and Icy quotes
Job 4:17
Then Eliphaz the Temanite replied:
as if he spoke correct
 
It seems to me that I address all your questions with biblical responses and then you wave them off and then throw down a bunch more questions. You really need to grapple with the Bible concepts you've already received before jumping from one sinking premise to another one. For instance, you still haven't grappled with how you handle the fact that God ALONE is immortal. It seems to me that you want to kinda, sorta affirm this verity but then also deny it at the same time (aka, cognitive dissonance). Human beings in our current state are considered mortal (Job 4:17) and we seek immortality (Romans 2:7), which God gives only to the redeemed. You yourself have acknowledged this latter fact, but then your cognitive dissonance kicks back in where you attempt to hold onto contradictory ideas at the same time.
=====================end SDA Matra

and Icy quotes
Job 4:17
Then Eliphaz the Temanite replied:
as if he spoke correct


Hi Buzzard,

Ha! I'm pretty sure this is trolling, but how bizarre is it that you key in on one small aspect of my entire post and attempt to distract away from the truth of what I'm stating. While Eliphaz certainly had his issues, here's my question for you: Is he wrong, or are you wrong? Let's see what God says.

Genesis 6:3
So the LORD said, "My Spirit won't remain with human beings forever, because they're truly MORTAL.

So God says, "human beings [are] truly mortal." How much clearer do you need it than that? Where do you suppose Eliphaz got his understanding of what it means to be "mortal"? And what gives you the right to claim that you have a attribute which God "ALONE" has? Isn't that blasphemy? Yes, "truly."

I pray this helps.
 
Adventists will tell you that Spirit (breath to an SDA) plus Body equals Soul. Is this what Paul teaches?

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NASB

Paul tells us that the Soul is distinct, that it is separate from the Spirit or the Body.

What about the words of Jesus, our Lord and Savior?

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 NASB

If a soul equals breath plus dody, how can one kill the body, but be unable to kill the soul? Jesus says that the soul exists apart from the body.


Hi Common Tater,

This is typical of the critic's of Adventism—they always seem to distance themselves as far away from addressing the Bible answers which refute their position and instead attempt to distract from their inabilities by throwing out additional information they feel might could possibly maybe support their position. The problem is that I can do what I've been doing and address each of these new distractions and then you'll likely continue to ignore and reject each rebuttal and instead go in search of some new distraction. Frankly, I don't have time for that. Why don't you try dealing with what I've already shared and grapple with how your belief creates biblical disharmony?

God bless.
 
Hi Common Tater,

This is typical of the critic's of Adventism—they always seem to distance themselves as far away from addressing the Bible answers which refute their position and instead attempt to distract from their inabilities by throwing out additional information they feel might could possibly maybe support their position. The problem is that I can do what I've been doing and address each of these new distractions and then you'll likely continue to ignore and reject each rebuttal and instead go in search of some new distraction. Frankly, I don't have time for that. Why don't you try dealing with what I've already shared and grapple with how your belief creates biblical disharmony?

God bless.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NASB

You consider Paul's clear statement to be a distraction? Or perhaps you don't believe he knew what he was talking about?

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 NASB

Or maybe you believe our Lord was confused when he pointed out that people can kill the body, but not the soul? Explain how the soul hasn't been killed when the body has. Jesus was clear in what he said.
 
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Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NASB

You consider Paul's clear statement to be a distraction? Or perhaps you don't believe he knew what he was talking about?

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 NASB

Or maybe you believe our Lord was confused when he pointed out that people can kill the body, but not the soul? Explain how the soul hasn't been killed when the body has. Jesus was clear in what he said.


Hi Common Tater,

No, I don't consider Paul to be a distraction and I can certainly address what you're quoting here. However, I do consider that you are using him to deflect from your inability to respond to the points I raise. So instead of looking to harmonize what I've shared previously with your belief system, you seem to jettison whatever doesn't agree with your predetermined outcomes and jump from one confusion to another. All I'm saying is let's stay focussed and deal with what's in front of you.

Let's start with this: Do you agree that God alone is immortal? If yes, then we can move on to how you also believe that your soul is immortal and how you maintain these two contradictory beliefs at the same time.

God bless!
 
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