How God's restraint proves free will

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TomFL

Guest
This story regarding Balaam is a familiar one

Num. 22:21–33 —ESV
“So Balaam rose in the morning and saddled his donkey and went with the princes of Moab.
¶ But God’s anger was kindled because he went, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as his adversary. Now he was riding on the donkey, and his two servants were with him.
And the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road, with a drawn sword in his hand. And the donkey turned aside out of the road and went into the field. And Balaam struck the donkey, to turn her into the road.
Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on either side.
And when the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pushed against the wall and pressed Balaam’s foot against the wall. So he struck her again.
Then the angel of the LORD went ahead and stood in a narrow place, where there was no way to turn either to the right or to the left.
When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam. And Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he struck the donkey with his staff.
Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”
And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have made a fool of me. I wish I had a sword in my hand, for then I would kill you.”
And the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?” And he said, “No.”
¶ Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face.
And the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to oppose you because your way is perverse before me.
The donkey saw me and turned aside before me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, surely just now I would have killed you and let her live.””

Balaam ever greedy for gain had gone with the princes of Moab to curse the people of God

Angered God set his Angel with a sword to kill Balaam should he continue on his journey and plan to curse Israel

Balaam's Donkey however able to see the Angel of the Lord and his sword refused to go further

The donkey had prevented Balaam from being killed

Peter speaking of this writes the Donkey had restrained the prophets madness


2 Pet. 2:15–16 —ESV
“Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.”

but the prophet was restrained because God had set an Angel in Balaam's path with a purpose to kill him if he continued in his plan

So it was God who had restrained Balaam and the donkey was God's instrument to effect this

What has this to do with free will ?

Ask yourself this question if God casually determines every thought, desire and deed of man what is there to restrain but his own determinations ?

That makes no sense at all
 
P

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
TomFL said:
This story regarding Balaam is a familiar one

Num. 22:21–33 —ESV
“So Balaam rose in the morning and saddled his donkey and went with the princes of Moab.
¶ But God’s anger was kindled because he went, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as his adversary. Now he was riding on the donkey, and his two servants were with him.
And the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road, with a drawn sword in his hand. And the donkey turned aside out of the road and went into the field. And Balaam struck the donkey, to turn her into the road.
Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on either side.
And when the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pushed against the wall and pressed Balaam’s foot against the wall. So he struck her again.
Then the angel of the LORD went ahead and stood in a narrow place, where there was no way to turn either to the right or to the left.
When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam. And Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he struck the donkey with his staff.
Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”
And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have made a fool of me. I wish I had a sword in my hand, for then I would kill you.”
And the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?” And he said, “No.”
¶ Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face.
And the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to oppose you because your way is perverse before me.
The donkey saw me and turned aside before me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, surely just now I would have killed you and let her live.””

Balaam ever greedy for gain had gone with the princes of Moab to curse the people of God

Angered God set his Angel with a sword to kill Balaam should he continue on his journey and plan to curse Israel

Balaam's Donkey however able to see the Angel of the Lord and his sword refused to go further

The donkey had prevented Balaam from being killed

Peter speaking of this writes the Donkey had restrained the prophets madness


2 Pet. 2:15–16 —ESV
“Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.”

but the prophet was restrained because God had set an Angel in Balaam's path with a purpose to kill him if he continued in his plan

So it was God who had restrained Balaam and the donkey was God's instrument to effect this

What has this to do with free will ?

Ask yourself this question if God casually determines every thought, desire and deed of man what is there to restrain but his own determinations ?

That makes no sense at all
Click to expand...

There are thousands and thousands of said examples in the Scriptures.

I mean seriously, why warn of resisting the Spirit of God if the Spirit of God is irresistible.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
praise_yeshua said:
There are thousands and thousands of said examples in the Scriptures.

I mean seriously, why warn of resisting the Spirit of God if the Spirit of God is irresistible.
Click to expand...
Indeed

That was just one
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
tom

How God's restraint proves free will​

Click to expand...

No it proves man sins are under Gods control

Ps 76:10


Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Gen 20:6

And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
brightfame52 said:
tom



No it proves man sins are under Gods control

Ps 76:10


Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Gen 20:6

And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Click to expand...
In anything it proves God is not the cause of man's sin

affirming what I stated for after all what does God restrain but man's own sinful inclinations

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
In anything it proves God is not the cause of man's sin

affirming what I stated for after all what does God restrain but man's own sinful inclinations

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
Click to expand...
You again dis scripture !
 
T

TomFL

Guest
brightfame52 said:
You again dis scripture !
Click to expand...
Once again you provide no response to the scriptures

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Once again you provide no response to the scriptures

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
Click to expand...
I dont need to. it doesnt contradict the fact that God is the first cause of all things
 
T

TomFL

Guest
brightfame52 said:
I dont need to. it doesnt contradict the fact that God is the first cause of all things
Click to expand...
Not of man's sin

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

God is not the cause of man's sin
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Not of man's sin

James 1:13–15 —KJV
Ҧ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

God is not the cause of man's sin
Click to expand...
Who created man ? Who is the first cause of man ?
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Creation does not make God responsible for man's sin

and God made man good
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God is responsible for man and the devil having being, and He put the evil in their natures at their creation, how else could their natures be evil. And yes God made man very good, even with giving him a evil nature to sin with according to His Purpose in Christ Jesus. Adam needed to be born again and conformed to the image of Christ like all of Gods elect !
 
T

TomFL

Guest
brightfame52 said:
God is responsible for man and the devil having being, and He put the evil in their natures at their creation, how else could their natures be evil. And yes God made man very good, even with giving him a evil nature to sin with according to His Purpose in Christ Jesus. Adam needed to be born again and conformed to the image of Christ like all of Gods elect !
Click to expand...
God is not responsible for man's sin

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
God is not responsible for man's sin

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Click to expand...
God caused mans sin nature to be responsible for sin, He created man to sin. God created man with his own lust that lead him to sin, so in that regard God caused man to sin according to His Purpose.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
brightfame52 said:
God caused mans sin nature to be responsible for sin, He created man to sin. God created man with his own lust that lead him to sin, so in that regard God caused man to sin according to His Purpose.
Click to expand...
What part of

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

did you not understand

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
What part of

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

did you not understand

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
Click to expand...
You can quote all scripture you like, for:

God caused mans sin nature to be responsible for sin, He created man to sin. God created man with his own lust that lead him to sin, so in that regard God caused/determined man to sin according to His Purpose.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
brightfame52 said:
You can quote all scripture you like, for:

God caused mans sin nature to be responsible for sin, He created man to sin. God created man with his own lust that lead him to sin, so in that regard God caused man to sin according to His Purpose.
Click to expand...
I will take the word of God over your uninspired claim

What part of

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

did you not understand

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

and I will quote scripture all I want
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
I will take the word of God over your uninspired claim

What part of

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

did you not understand

James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 34:10 ¶ Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

and I will quote scripture all I want
Click to expand...
Where did adam and satan get their nature from ?
 
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