How hard is it for the natural man to believe the gospel?

Reformedguy

Well-known member
You are somewhat confused

I have always held it is by the spirit one is enabled to live the christian life

It seems you also do not understand LFW

LFW allows one to make free decisions within the limits of his nature

It is not absolute

and you just ignored the fact your interpretation of 1Cor 2:14 is not consistent withn scripture

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so



Acts 17:11 —KJV

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”



This shows one can judge spiritual truth by the scriptures which must be understood to do so



Acts 18:28 —KJV



“For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.”



Presupposes spiritual truth explained can be understood



John 1:7 —KJV

“The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.”



Again presupposes spiritual truth explained can be understood



James 1:21 (KJV)
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word,

which is able to save your souls.



Presupposes the word has power to save



Ephesians 3:4 (KJV)
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)



Presupposes reading sufficient to knowv spiritual truth



When God wanted Cornelius to receive the gospel he sent a preacher



Acts 11:13-14 (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and

call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.



The spirit sent Philip to preach the gosperl to the Ethiopian Eunuch



Acts 8:27-35 (KJV)
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

and cannot explain why

God hardened men so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

Why scripture notes had they not hardened themselves they could have believe

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Why Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

Why the god of this world blinds those who cannot see

2 Corinthians 4:4 (ESV)
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

and contrary to its near context as

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV)
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

as some do believe
More cutting and pasting. What a waste. No mention of the text in question from our choice meat friend. I for one am shocked
 
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TomFL

Guest
More cutting and pasting. What a waste. No mention of the text in question from our choice meat friend. I for one am shocked
Which you never address

why ?

That verse is currently expounded upon in multiple places

the verses I posted above not

 
T

TomFL

Guest
🥱👈 1 Corinthians 2:14. Check it out
Already did multiple times

It refers to those who only appraise truth based upon human wisdom

that all men are not in this category is seen here

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV)
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

One can judge by human wisdom or one can judge based upon Spirit revealed truth

the former will not know God or spiritual truth the later can

as I noted your view is contrary to much scripture

 

Theo1689

Well-known member
1 Cor 2:14 is written to Christians who have already understood a need to repent and receive Jesus. The context is the deeper understandings that only Christians can draw from the Spirit teaching them

Yep... You have no clue what a proper hermeneutic is.

Paul isn't referring to the "Christians" he's "writing" to, in 1 Cor. 2:14.

He's referring to a group of people IN THE THIRD PERSON, and telling the Christians ABOUT this group of people:

1Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The "natural person" is contrasted with the "spiritual person".
Paul tells us that they are not able to understand the things of the Spirit "because they are spiritually discerned".

You need the SPIRIT to "discern" the things of the Spirit of God, and they can't, because they DON'T HAVE THE SPIRIT.

It can't be more clear.

"The psuchikos ("natural") man is the unregenerate man while the pneumatikos man is the renewed man, born again of the Spirit of God. Receiveth not (ou dechetai). Does not accept, rejects, refuses to accept. In Rom. 8:7 Paul definitely states the inability (oude gar dunatai) of the mind of the flesh to receive the things of the Spirit untouched by the Holy Spirit. Certainly the initiative comes from God whose Holy Spirit makes it possible for us to accept the things of the Spirit of God. They are no longer “foolishness” (mōria) to us as was once the case (1:23). Today one notes certain of the intelligentsia who sneer at Christ and Christianity in their own blinded ignorance. He cannot know them (ou dunatai gnōnai). He is not able to get a knowledge (ingressive second aorist active infinitive of ginōskō). His helpless condition calls for pity in place of impatience on our part, though such an one usually poses as a paragon of wisdom and commiserates the deluded followers of Christ. They are spiritually judged (pneumatikōs anakrinetai)."
-- A. T. Robertson, "Word Pictures of the New Testament"

"This ψυχικος, ("natural") or animal man, is opposed to the πνευματικος, or spiritual man: and, as this latter is one who is under the influence of the Spirit of God, so the former is one who is without that influence."
-- Adam Clarke, "Clarke's Commentary on the Whole Bible"
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Already did multiple times

It refers to those who only appraise truth based upon human wisdom

that all men are not in this category is seen here

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV)
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

One can judge by human wisdom or one can judge based upon Spirit revealed truth

the former will not know God or spiritual truth the later can

as I noted your view is contrary to much scripture

Nope. Don't see any mention of 1 Corinthians 2:14. Will it be much longer??
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Which you never address

why ?

That verse is currently expounded upon in multiple places

the verses I posted above not

I dont deal with cutting and pasting. Your ignorance is more than enough
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
So Christians are natural men who don't understand?
I am baffled why time after time you pretend people are saying things they never said, What is your purpose in doing that?
A Christian can walk in a natural understanding if they choose to ignore the Spirit, But Christians have a born again nature and can know things in the Spirit that the unregenerated cannot know
 
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TomFL

Guest
I dont deal with cutting and pasting. Your ignorance is more than enough
You don't deal with rebuttal at all

and you have proven yourself unable to prove any ignorance but your own

 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Yep... You have no clue what a proper hermeneutic is.

Paul isn't referring to the "Christians" he's "writing" to, in 1 Cor. 2:14.

He's referring to a group of people IN THE THIRD PERSON, and telling the Christians ABOUT this group of people:

1Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The "natural person" is contrasted with the "spiritual person".
Paul tells us that they are not able to understand the things of the Spirit "because they are spiritually discerned".

You need the SPIRIT to "discern" the things of the Spirit of God, and they can't, because they DON'T HAVE THE SPIRIT.

It can't be more clear.

"The psuchikos ("natural") man is the unregenerate man while the pneumatikos man is the renewed man, born again of the Spirit of God. Receiveth not (ou dechetai). Does not accept, rejects, refuses to accept. In Rom. 8:7 Paul definitely states the inability (oude gar dunatai) of the mind of the flesh to receive the things of the Spirit untouched by the Holy Spirit. Certainly the initiative comes from God whose Holy Spirit makes it possible for us to accept the things of the Spirit of God. They are no longer “foolishness” (mōria) to us as was once the case (1:23). Today one notes certain of the intelligentsia who sneer at Christ and Christianity in their own blinded ignorance. He cannot know them (ou dunatai gnōnai). He is not able to get a knowledge (ingressive second aorist active infinitive of ginōskō). His helpless condition calls for pity in place of impatience on our part, though such an one usually poses as a paragon of wisdom and commiserates the deluded followers of Christ. They are spiritually judged (pneumatikōs anakrinetai)."
-- A. T. Robertson, "Word Pictures of the New Testament"

"This ψυχικος, ("natural") or animal man, is opposed to the πνευματικος, or spiritual man: and, as this latter is one who is under the influence of the Spirit of God, so the former is one who is without that influence."
-- Adam Clarke, "Clarke's Commentary on the Whole Bible"
Funny you thought you were contradicting me, but mostly just saying what I said in other words.
Or do you think you made some different point?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Nope. Don't see any mention of 1 Corinthians 2:14. Will it be much longer??
Already done here


and other places as well
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
1Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

"2:14. Since only spiritual people are able to receive spiritual truths, it follows that the man without the Spirit, an unregenerate person, would not and could not receive the message of wisdom regardless of his intellectual abilities or accomplishments (1:20). Like a deaf critic of Bach or a blind critic of Raphael is the unregenerate critic of God’s Word."
-- David K. Lowery, "Bible Knowledge Commentary"

"1. The natural man receiveth not the things of God, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned, v. 14. The natural man, the animal man. Either, (1.) The man under the power of corruption, and never yet illuminated by the Spirit of God, such as Jude calls sensual, not having the Spirit, v. 19. Men unsanctified receive not the things of God. The understanding, through the corruption of nature by the fall, and through the confirmation of this disorder by customary sin, is utterly unapt to receive the rays of divine light; it is prejudiced against them. The truths of God are foolishness to such a mind."
-- Matthew Henry Commentary

1 Corinthians 2:14
tn Grk “natural person.” Cf. BDAG 1100 s.v. ψυχικός a, “an unspiritual pers., one who merely functions bodily,
without being touched by the Spirit of God.
- NET Bible, Translation notes

"Mere reason does not bring humanity into a true relationship with God and the transforming power of God’s work. Indeed, without the Spirit humanity resists or rejects as foolishness the revelations of the Spirit (the things that come from the Spirit of God). The Spirit alone provides perception that enlightens and transforms humanity by bringing the human into a divinely initiated relationship with God. "
-- Marion L. Soards, New International Bible Commentary
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I am baffled why time after time you pretend people are saying things they never said, What is your purpose in doing that?

I am baffled why time after time when people disagree with you, you falsely accuse them of "pretending" things. What is your purpose in doing that?

A Christian can walk in a natural understanding if they choose to ignore the Spirit,

Where does the Bible teach that nonsense?
Time after time, seth makes ridiculous assertions and NEVER backs them up with Scripture, yet criticizes others if he thinks THEY don't provide Scripture.
Double standards much?

But Christians have a born again nature and can know things in the Spirit that the unregenerated cannot know

And since 1 Cor. 2:14 says the people in question "cannot know", it MUST be referring to unsaved people.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
You don't deal with rebuttal at all

and you have proven yourself unable to prove any ignorance but your own

Cutting and pasting is amateurish and what's worse is you don't credit who did the work. edit
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
I am baffled why time after time you pretend people are saying things they never said, What is your purpose in doing that?
A Christian can walk in a natural understanding if they choose to ignore the Spirit, But Christians have a born again nature and can know things in the Spirit that the unregenerated cannot know
So the natural man is a Christain who cannot understand Spiritual things? How did they become Christains??

Whats a natural understanding? I'm smelling someone making things up again
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I am baffled why time after time when people disagree with you, you falsely accuse them of "pretending" things. What is your purpose in doing that?



Where does the Bible teach that nonsense?
Time after time, seth makes ridiculous assertions and NEVER backs them up with Scripture, yet criticizes others if he thinks THEY don't provide Scripture.
Double standards much?



And since 1 Cor. 2:14 says the people in question "cannot know", it MUST be referring to unsaved people.
If we were unable to walk in the flesh, Paul would not enjoin is to walk in the Spirit and to stay out of the flesh. He would not even have to talk about it if it was impossible for us to walk in the flesh,
Why do you think Paul tells Christians not to walk in gthe flesh, since he knows it is not possible for them to walk in the flesh?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If we were unable to walk in the flesh, Paul would not enjoin is to walk in the Spirit and to stay out of the flesh. He would not even have to talk about it if it was impossible for us to walk in the flesh,
Why do you think Paul tells Christians not to walk in gthe flesh, since he knows it is not possible for them to walk in the flesh?

That's 100% rationalization, ZERO Scripture.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
So the natural man is a Christain who cannot understand Spiritual things? How did they become Christains??

Whats a natural understanding? I'm smelling someone making things up again
This is Christianity 101.
But if you will pay attention perhaps I can help you to grasp this somewhat simple concept.
When a person is born again, they receive Christ and are indwelt by Him and have a new nature within
At the same time, they still have their flesh and all the difficulties that come with that nature
Paul teaches that Christians must choose to listen to and obey the Spiritual life within while at the same time suppressing the natural, fleshly nature.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh - Are you unaware of this verse?

This is why you will never understand Scripture. You go by memory (which is unreliable), and since you don't even know the citation, you can't check the context.

Gal. 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

This does NOT say that believers "cannot walk by the Spirit".
But 1 Cor. 2:14 says "the natural man" cannot do so.

Therefore 1 Cor. 2:14 MUST be referring to unsaved men, not believers.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
This is Christianity 101.
But if you will pay attention perhaps I can help you to grasp this somewhat simple concept.
When a person is born again, they receive Christ and are indwelt by Him and have a new nature within
At the same time, they still have their flesh and all the difficulties that come with that nature
Paul teaches that Christians must choose to listen to and obey the Spiritual life within while at the same time suppressing the natural, fleshly nature.
Wonderful. How would they do that if they CANNOT understand Spiritual things?
 
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