How I Became A Calvinist!

Sethproton

Well-known member
That happened because of the Power of the Seed, not because of the power of the ground...
Surely you are not saying that the condition of the ground had nothing to do with what happens to the seed?
I don't see that parable being about the power of the seed, but about the condition of the soil.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Surely you are not saying that the condition of the ground had nothing to do with what happens to the seed?
I don't see that parable being about the power of the seed, but about the condition of the soil.

I've never seen a farm where the soil "conditions" itself.
It's always the farmer (or master) who chooses which soil to condition, to plant his crops, and which soil to leave as barren.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Surely you are not saying that the condition of the ground had nothing to do with what happens to the seed?
I don't see that parable being about the power of the seed, but about the condition of the soil.
I see the Parable being about the Power of the Seed, because if the birds didn't take the Seed away from the Hard Path, Jesus would have had to heal that ground. That ground was so hard that it wasn't Stoney or Thorny, only the Gospel Seed can penetrate it. The Good Soil was Tilled in preparation for the Seed; it was Regenerated. The Stones were removed and it was Weeded. It produced a Crop. Since it is the Good Soil, the rest can only be Bad Soils; left to their own devices...

I certainly am saying the condition of the Soil had nothing to do with it; without the Seed it can't do anything, the Power is in the Seed. Or as Theo said, the Life is in the Seed...
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I see the Parable being about the Power of the Seed, because if the birds didn't take the Seed away from the Hard Path, Jesus would have had to heal that ground. That ground was so hard that it wasn't Stoney or Thorny, only the Gospel Seed can penetrate it. The Good Soil was Tilled in preparation for the Seed; it was Regenerated. The Stones were removed and it was Weeded. It produced a Crop. Since it is the Good Soil, the rest can only be Bad Soils; left to their own devices...

I certainly am saying the condition of the Soil had nothing to do with it; without the Seed it can't do anything, the Power is in the Seed. Or as Theo said, the Life is in the Seed...
Uh Is the soil not meant to represent ones heart

In the parable the condition of the soil (heart) is decisive as all received the same seed but only the good soil (heart) brought forth fruit
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Uh Is the soil not meant to represent ones heart

Correct, and the natural man has a heart like this:

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick; who can understand it?

And just like the farmer/master has to condition the soil before it can cause seeds to germinate and bear fruit, so too must the master change our heart:

Psa. 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.

Ezek. 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Ezek. 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

In the parable the condition of the soil (heart) is decisive as all received the same seed but only the good soil (heart) brought forth fruit

So if you are rocky ground, how can you turn yourself into good soil?
You can't.
Only God can.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Uh Is the soil not meant to represent ones heart

In the parable the condition of the soil (heart) is decisive as all received the same seed but only the good soil (heart) brought forth fruit
Yep, they're all hearts; but only one Soil was Circumcised by the Sower's plow, before any Sowing took place. a wise Farmer means the Seed for the Garden, but there is an over-spray. The life is in the Seed, even the Good Soil is worthless without the Seed and the Sower...
 
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TomFL

Guest
Correct, and the natural man has a heart like this:

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick; who can understand it?

And just like the farmer/master has to condition the soil before it can cause seeds to germinate and bear fruit, so too must the master change our heart:

Psa. 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.

Ezek. 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Ezek. 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.



So if you are rocky ground, how can you turn yourself into good soil?
You can't.
Only God can.
so the condition of the heart is the point of the parable

And there really is no good soil

you cannot turn yourself into good soil only God can

But you can accept his offer to do it for you
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
so the condition of the heart is the point of the parable

And there really is no good soil

you cannot turn yourself into good soil only God can

That matches reality.
Ask any farmer if their field cleared its own rocks..
Ask any farmer if their field cleared its own trees.
Ask any farmer if their field made their own furrows.

But you can accept his offer to do it for you

What "acceptance" and "offer" are you talking about?
When did the farmer "offer" the soil of the act of conditioning it?
When did the soil "accept" the imaginary "offer"?

Your spin bears absolutely no resemblance to reality.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Since you claim to be infallible concerning theology, then you admit you cannot be wrong, and you admit you are unable to learn. Therefore I can NEVER learn anything from you.

Thank you for clarifying.
If you will read the OT and believe the words and then read what I have said about the kingdom in this thread and others, then you will agree that I am not wrong about what God is doing in the world. Wresting the scriptures to your own destruction is what is wrong and that is done regularly by a certain group here. Learning is a good thing but it is like a gift, you must be willing to receive instruction.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
what would we get from peter pan?

- that we need to go back to eden (neverland)

- except everyone prefers london and the banker’s house.

- that whoever made the movie gave it the wrong ending.
I used the Disney adaptation to make a point to a friend who believes in a Works Righteousness (a Seventh Day Adventist); I told her she is Sewing the Shadow of the Fourth Commandment onto her Hope...

I'll paste the Gospel Tract for you...
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
If you will read the OT

I already have.
But thank you for insultingly and uncharitable assuming I haven't.

and believe the words

I already have.
But thank you for insultingly and uncharitable assuming I haven't.


and then read what I have said about the kingdom in this thread and others, then you will agree that I am not wrong

NO, I CANNOT "agree that [you are] not wrong".

And that's why I can NEVER learn anything from you.
Because you consider yourself the ultimate and universal authority, and that anyone who disagrees with YOU is "wrong", because YOU determine truth.



Wresting the scriptures to your own destruction is what

... YOU do.

is wrong and that is done regularly by a certain group here.

Yep.
Wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction is what anti-Calvinists do on a regular basis.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
what would we get from peter pan?

- that we need to go back to eden (neverland)

- except everyone prefers london and the banker’s house.

- that whoever made the movie gave it the wrong ending.
Peter Pan ~ by ReverendRV

Colossians 2:16-17; Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

When I think of ‘shadows’ my mind goes to the story of Peter Pan. In the Disney adaptation we find that Peter Pan goes looking for his shadow and finds it in the home of the Girl Wendy. It seems that the shadow has a mind of it’s own and from time to time it runs away. It takes quite an effort for the shadow to be captured, and Wendy helps Peter by sewing the shadow to his feet. Thus his shadow ceases its effort to escape; for now…

God gave his Law to the Jews through his Prophet Moses. The Jews became zealous for Gods Law and rightfully so. The Apostle Paul says that the Law was given by God to show us that we are Sinners; and to point us to Jesus. ~ In ancient days the people kept the time of day with a sundial. A sundial has a shadow casting device called a gnomon, attached to a dial plate which has markings. The markings almost always have hours, and may or may not be legal time, often it is local sun time. The sundial always points to the truth. Paul teaches us that the ‘things’ he mentions in this verse are some of the markings on the face of the sundial, and the shadow is cast from the gnomon. We are to learn from this sundial just ‘how far gone we are’ in our spiritual day. Have you ever told a lie? Then the gnomon’s shadow has started moving across the clock face and stops at half past the ‘Liar’ marking. Have you ever stolen? The shadow moves more and stops at ‘Thief’. The day has hardly begun but we see ‘it is time’ that we know the truth…

Like the shadow of Peter Pan, the Jews began to chase the shadow of the Law as if it were the reality. They loved the darkness rather than the light. We, like them, have gone astray and do not want to come into the light. What we fail to realize is that without light, there is no shadow to be cast onto the ground. In our fascination for the shadow, the thought has never occurred to us that if we follow the shadow from the face of the sundial back to it’s origin we will find out ‘who’ the gnomon is! The Bible tells us that Jesus kept the Law of God perfectly and we are living in his shadow. He is the gnomon which reaches all the way up to Heaven. Climb Jacobs ladder, if you enter the Kingdom of God through Faith in Jesus, you will not be judged guilty by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

But you ask, “Didn’t Jesus say that not one dot of an ‘i’ or one cross of a ‘t’ will perish from the Law of God?” Yes, he did; but we also learn from the Bible that, “For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” If we do not keep the festivals but we do keep the Sabbath days, then we are cursed because we have not continued to do everything written in the books of the Law of Moses. Instead, let’s live by Gods Grace! Don’t be like Peter Pan and desire a life which chases the shadow of the reality, only to sew it to your heel. The shadow will escape you again, because it is only dangling by a thread…

Ephesians 2:8; For by Grace you are saved through Faith apart from Works so that no man can boast…
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Okay. I've seen that one. I liked the newer one, 2003 directed by Hogan.

The thing is (reading the archetypes) that wendy and the boys needed to stay in neverland but she returned instead to the fallen world. Neverland is messed up, but that portrays the real world where eden is, a completely different dimension. The movie ended up with the fake happy ending of being back in the world.... so the ending was a horrible fail.
I didn't see the new movie. When we use examples from Cultural Icons, the whole volume that the example comes from certainly falls short. ~ I'm arguing this with an Atheist on the Secular Atheism Board now. He recognizes a point I use is valid, but the whole of the example I used has some loopholes. I'm trying to get him to focus on the part, but he insists if I use a part, I should have to agree the whole is also an example of Theism when it's not. He wants me to perform an impossible Stunt to prove my point, setting me up for failure; like when Evil Keneivel tried to jump the Snake River on a motorcycle...

That doesn't work out too well for anyone; even if I add rocket boosters to my Apology...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
PS, pan is a bit of a monster, either because having no soul or only a stolen glued on one, or because having lost his soul (to this world.) So he is fallen too, even if he is fallen in the other world and wendy is fallen in this world. Wendy and the boys representing souls here. If we view pan as positive, then we can say that its because he wants his soul restored to him, which is represented by the shadow... since both pan and his soul are going to be messed up in that separated state, until they are restored. Which is a lot of our problem... we lost our original being of eden, which is the imperishable body and we are separated.

It's a bit tricky to use these hollywood movie because all the tropes are inconsistent and messed up.
Are you suggesting I should include in my Apology the portions of Peter Pan you find fault with? That's like what the Atheist wants me to do...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I see...where im considered to be outlier here, and heretic to the forums, so probably my opinion would not interest you.
that said, what I dislike very much, and I am christian, is the haughtiness of the supposed saved.

The thing is we won't be 'saved from here' until We are restored to Eden and our real bodies, not these fallen type deathly ones which we are not to touch (haggai 2), because they are dead.

And we do have 1 thing to do, one job:To die to this world, and follow Him. We do have to do that. And though we have limited choices, that one we do have.

So both works and faith alone are wrong, as a false debate situation.
If you give me a chance, you might like what I have to say. We've been having a good conversation so far...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
well, when the sons leave here and go to the Change, crossing the grand canyon will be easy.
The Change being how Paul describes when we are Changed into our imperishable body and
finally are saved from here.

I know there is a rapture version, but the term is by now filled with mixed up archetypes and the explanation of it I would give is not
the one some others would. Because I feel that terms such as elect and saved and all those, are so mixed up by now, that speaking of rapture
is a mess.

One could also look at the movie, peter pan, and decided that home with the Banks is eden and that wendy leaves, goes to the fallen world, representing us disobeying God.

The problem with these movies is that none of the archetypes are clean... London can never be eden and will always be understood as 'in this world'. so reading it the other way around makes more sense, that wendy landed in the territory near eden, belonging to the satanic realm, after they caused to eden to fall, and that neverland includes that region of the fallen ones, where pan took her...

eden would then be below that area (of pan's island), as in Ezekiel, where God is angry and destroys their city (the island of pan, in the movie) which is feeding off of and hurting Eden (which is east of there and below).

Alice in wonderland also depicts the city of the fallen angels above eden, which is the entire place alice ends up when she goes through the looking glass. But keeping in mind that this earth, 'the other side of the glass' is also part of the satanic regions and is also NOT eden...So in either location alice is a prisoner, just as we.
I can sympathize with your noticing Biblical themes in our culture...

Did you read my Gospel Tract titled Peter Pan? I have one that has a little something to do with Alice in Wonderland, but more to do with Alice through the Looking Glass if you'd like to read that one?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Do send it. I am reading the peter pan one again, because it is very details. I'm sorry i got ahead of me...was very interesting that you understand the archetypes and how they can be filled differently ways, for good or ill, and I was probably thinking out loud. Thank you for understanding. <3
Humpty Dumpty ~ by Reverend RV

Amos 9:11 KJV; "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old;

We face many problems in life and they hurt; they can even devastate us. ~ When I said this, we all probably remembered something from our past that has crushed us, and some of us are flooded with the memory of many damaging things that happened to us. We can also remember how we used to be before these bad things happened. In those days things were a little better, a little easier; things were good; but when the damage was done, those days were forever behind us. ~ Everyone knows the ‘Humpty Dumpty’ nursery rhyme. The character is found in the novel ‘Alice through the looking glass', but some believe that in history, Humpty Dumpty was a large cannon mounted on a wall in St Mary’s Church. It was strong and powerful, but when an attack caused the wall to fall, ‘all the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty together again’. The nursery rhyme pictures a person who is as fragile as an egg which is cracked from a fall. We know of no way to restore a cracked egg to its former state…

The Prophet Amos tells of a time that the Tabernacle of King David will be restored. In the Old Testament the people of Israel were Nomads and they would carry their ‘tent like’ Tabernacle with them as the moved on and on. Even when the people of Israel came into their own land, the Priests preformed their religious duties in a Tabernacle instead of a permanent Temple. David was not allowed to build a Temple for God because he was a man of War, so That responsibility fell on his son, King Solomon. ~ In his commentary on Amos 9:11, John Gill speaks of Christ’s Bride as being raised from her ruin and from out of the dust; symbolizing being raised from the dead. Gill goes on to describe the bride of Christ as living Tabernacles. If there is someone who can repair our damages, it would take a person who has the power to create; and even recreate. This is the kind of power it would take to make us whole after we've been damaged. ~ God sees the damage in your life and will raise up its ruins when you go to him for help. God says that ‘Damaged Goods’ are good for something. A dealer came across three nice chrome Rims but knew they were worthless without the fourth wheel. He had them turned into three Chandeliers and sold them for Man caves. Something that used to be tread upon, became a beacon of light…

When I was young, I would walk the road on the way to the store and pick up the empty Coke bottles and redeem them at the store, leaving with a bag of sweet candy! The bottles were emptied of their sweetness but were still worth their weight in sweets to me. That’s the way God views his children; though they are empty inside he will search them out and pay the price to have them. He will cleanse you and you will be suitable to be filled and used. ~ The first man Adam was like Humpty Dumpty; he had a great Fall. He Sinned against God by disobeying the only Law back then. Because of this, Sin entered into the world and the world has suffered from the damage that was done. But God sent his Sinless Son into the world to pay the price and redeem all who believe on his name. This man is Jesus Christ and if you put your trust in him you will not be put to shame. Jesus shed his blood on a Cross to pay the penalty for Sins we committed. He died, was buried for three days but rose from the dead to judge the world. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the risen Savior Jesus Christ, not by Working to raise our own tabernacle. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and read the Bible.. ~ There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and this means no more condemning yourself anymore…

John 5:24 KJV; Jesus said ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life…
 
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