How is this defensible?

Canon 24: “If anyone saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

So your church got it wrong at trent? So who is right? Good ole faith plus works. Anyway you cut it!.
You are missing one thing:

Canon 24 is presuming the person has Faith.

Works are the fruit of Faith--but they are saving becasue of Faith.

Maybe it will help if I try to translate this into Protestant language:

When God sees our Faith, God sees Christ and is pleased, correct? Well, when God sees works born out of Faith--God sees Christ and is equally pleased.
 
Stella1000 said:
I've asked this before without getting a solid reply other than "just do Gods Will" but for example is IVF technology God's Will?
This is not difficult to answer. Do you suppose the Holy Spirit is leading absolutely anyone to do such a thing?
Infertility is one of the most distressing places people can be. Christians quite easily believe that using IVF is the Will of God for them. However through the thorough work of the Pontifical Academy of Science, the process can be seen to involve dehumanising practices including aborted embryo both in and outside the womb as well as other practices such as experimentation on embryos not in accord with their dignity. That can be accessed in the 1987 instruction Donum Vitae.

How does an ordinary non scientific person know all these facts to be able to know Gods Will without help?

Or is it your position that each person makes up their own mind on moral issues based only on what they themselves know? ie morality is relative?
 
Infertility is one of the most distressing places people can be. Christians quite easily believe that using IVF is the Will of God for them. However through the thorough work of the Pontifical Academy of Science, the process can be seen to involve dehumanising practices including aborted embryo both in and outside the womb as well as other practices such as experimentation on embryos not in accord with their dignity. That can be accessed in the 1987 instruction Donum Vitae.

How does an ordinary non scientific person know all these facts to be able to know Gods Will without help?

Or is it your position that each person makes up their own mind on moral issues based only on what they themselves know? ie morality is relative?

It's hard to have a discussion with someone who isn't listening.
 
Infertility is one of the most distressing places people can be. Christians quite easily believe that using IVF is the Will of God for them. However through the thorough work of the Pontifical Academy of Science, the process can be seen to involve dehumanising practices including aborted embryo both in and outside the womb as well as other practices such as experimentation on embryos not in accord with their dignity. That can be accessed in the 1987 instruction Donum Vitae.

How does an ordinary non scientific person know all these facts to be able to know Gods Will without help?

Or is it your position that each person makes up their own mind on moral issues based only on what they themselves know? ie morality is relative?
I don't see a bunch of men with a token female can judge women's issues. Sorry. Especially men who don't know the Lord which your leaders don't seem to, I mean they do not follow 1 Cor 5:11 when it concerns men harming women and children. I personally wish there where better ways for those with infertility issues both male and female could have a family. Especially as adoptions have become so much harder and expensive. This is why we who are parents should be aware of how they are a blessing from God and should constantly protect them from harm. This means whethr they are our children or not.
 
You are missing one thing:

Canon 24 is presuming the person has Faith.

Works are the fruit of Faith--but they are saving becasue of Faith.

Maybe it will help if I try to translate this into Protestant language:

When God sees our Faith, God sees Christ and is pleased, correct? Well, when God sees works born out of Faith--God sees Christ and is equally pleased.
in who or what?
 
You are missing one thing:

Canon 24 is presuming the person has Faith.

Works are the fruit of Faith--but they are saving becasue of Faith.

Maybe it will help if I try to translate this into Protestant language:

When God sees our Faith, God sees Christ and is pleased, correct? Well, when God sees works born out of Faith--God sees Christ and is equally pleased.
NOT what that canon says at all.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
You are missing one thing:

Canon 24 is presuming the person has Faith.

Works are the fruit of Faith--but they are saving becasue of Faith.

Maybe it will help if I try to translate this into Protestant language:

When God sees our Faith, God sees Christ and is pleased, correct? Well, when God sees works born out of Faith--God sees Christ and is equally pleased.
Maybe it will help if I try to translate this into Protestant language:
did it work better in your version of 'Protestant language'?
 
You are missing one thing:

Canon 24 is presuming the person has Faith.

Works are the fruit of Faith--but they are saving becasue of Faith.

Maybe it will help if I try to translate this into Protestant language:

When God sees our Faith, God sees Christ and is pleased, correct? Well, when God sees works born out of Faith--God sees Christ and is equally pleased.
Here is what your ccc says:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

here is what Jesus says:
John 3:
16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.

17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Jesus, the apostles, or scripture nerver said oFaith plus works save. And scripture nowhere says that works add ANY MERIT to attain eternal life. Jesus said, "it (His work of redemption) is finished." He did everything necessary for our salvation, and eternal life! And neither can one be saved by proxy. Your religion says that works can even help merit eternal life for others. Same thing mormons say about baptism.
 
Here is what your ccc says:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.
1) You are Protestant and therefore are not qualified to our Ecumenical Councils.

2) The above being said, you got right that no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification.
here is what Jesus says: John 3: 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.

17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
I do not understand why you think this passage refutes Trent's Canon. Who is suggesting that one can be saved by works alone? Who is suggesting that Faith and belief in Christ are unnecessary?
Jesus, the apostles, or scripture never said of Faith plus works save.
And there is good reason for that. Faith PLUS works does NOT save. Catholics do not believe Faith PLUS works saves anyone.

Catholics believe Faith AND works save. Note the preposition "AND." Faith and works are NOT opposed---and again, I do not understand why Protestants insist on opposing Faith and works--as though they are unrelated.
And scripture nowhere says that works add ANY MERIT to attain eternal life.
Here also, Catholics do not believe we "ADD" merit to the merits of Christ to attain eternal life, Catholics believe that Christ's merits are their merits, thus, we "merit" with the merits of Christ.

That is the whole reason we can merit in the first place! Don't you get that?
Jesus said, "it (His work of redemption) is finished."
To what does "it" refer? Does "it" refer to the work of redemption? If so, that seems rather absurd--since there is still the resurrection, the ascension and Pentecost to follow. If "it" refers to the work of redemption, then you have just proven that the resurrection, ascension and Pentecost are unnecessary.

I believe "it" refers to the earthly work and ministry of Christ. That seems to me to be the simplest explanation for "it." Christ is saying "I did it." That is "I completed my earthly work." I also believe "it" refers to the suffering and death of Christ in the flesh. That also is finished. The suffering and death of Christ in the flesh is unique; never to happen again.
He did everything necessary for our salvation, and eternal life!
Exactly. That is precisely why we can merit salvation.
And neither can one be saved by proxy.
That isn't what it means to merit salvation for someone else. The Body of Christ, sir, is a team. This means what one does on the body, especially for good, can effect others in the body.
Your religion says that works can even help merit eternal life for others. Same thing mormons say about baptism.
No, it isn't at all similar to what Mormons say about Baptism. Mormons can literally be baptized for someone else. Catholics cannot..

When it talks about meriting salvation for someone else, it means our suffering help till the soil of their hearts to make them open to the Gospel. Only Christ can save them--but our willingness to offer our sufferings for them can help prepare the way.

Again, sir we are either the Body of Christ or not. If we are a body, then we are a team. There is no "I" in team.
 
Um--so what?

In other words--you think the Canon means to deny the necessity of Faith?
No, it just adds other things to salvation by faith alone. Anything added to faith for salvation is another gospel. And your religion adds a lot of stuff to faith, such as baptism, belief in the Marian dogmas, auricle confession to a priest, the mass, etc. So if you believe faith saves why do you have to do all the other stuff your religion requires for salvation? When you tell me that you don't do all that other stuff or salvation, then maybe I and other Christians will start taking you seriously. Until then you may as well stand on a street corner and whistle Dixie. One does as one believes!
And where does scripture mention "initial" grace.....one either is saved by grace or not. Nowhere does scripture mention partial salvation now, and then the rest of salvation later. That is why the bible proves Trent wrong, whether you want to believe that or not does not negate what scripture says over and over again.
 
And there is good reason for that. Faith PLUS works does NOT save. Catholics do not believe Faith PLUS works saves anyone.

Catholics believe Faith AND works save. Note the preposition "AND." Faith and works are NOT opposed---and again, I do not understand why Protestants insist on opposing Faith and works--as though they are unrelated.
These two phrases mean the same thing. For example:

Blue and yellow make green ==> blue plus yellow makes green. You just confirmed bluedog's statement.
 
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