How "pro-life" is it to deny the sacrament?

[HillsboroMom]

The Catholic Council of Bishops is considering making a statement saying that members who are Catholic but "pro-choice" (such as President Biden) should not be allowed to take Eucharist (Communion).

Now, I know many Christians here think Catholics aren't even Christian, so it doesn't matter what they do or say. If this is you, then just move on.

But if you think the bishops are right ... or if you think churches should "discipline" members for having pro-choice views, let me ask you this:

Do you think church elders should excommunicate members who smoke? After all, smoking kills over 8 million people around the world every year. (reference: WHO)

Do you think church elders should reject soldiers? They killed over 100 million people in the 20th century. (reference: History.com)

Do you think churches should kick out anyone who owns a gun? Gun deaths (including suicide) are the #1 killer of Americans under the age of 45. (reference: CDC)

All of these things result in death. And yet many Christians have no problem with members who smoke, members who are soldiers, and members who own guns, even though they're at least as deadly as abortion is.

A person who supports gun ownership isn't saying they think it's good to shoot people. They are saying they believe that Americans have the constitutional right to make their OWN decisions. And that sometimes, God-forbid (literally), they might actually have to protect someone or something, and they might need to use the gun, and a gun owner has the responsibility to make that decision for him or herself.

Clearly, a lot of gun owners make the wrong choices. A lot of gun owners are NOT responsible.

A lot of liberals say the answer is to take guns away from everyone. I think they're wrong. I think that's not going to stop the violence, because even if it were possible (which it isn't), people will find another way to kill each other if you don't address the route cause for the violence.

A lot of anti-abortion folk would agree with me 100% on the gun issue. Why don't they recognize that the EXACT same thing is true for abortion.

A person who supports abortion rights isn't saying they think abortion is a good thing. No woman is going out and purposely getting pregnant just so that she can get an abortion. No one does that. With very few exceptions, MOST people are pro-choice because they think parents are responsible Americans who can decide, in consultation with each other, a doctor, and hopefully a spiritual mentor (such as a pastor or rabbi) what steps to take. And that sometimes, God forbid, they might actually have to get an abortion to protect someone or something, and that they have the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to make that decision for themselves. Abortion needs to remain the choice of the INDIVIDUAL and the MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, not legislated by some group of lawmakers who y'all can't even trust to elect a president.

And more importantly, even if you think a person shouldn't have the right to get an abortion if it's needed, or to own a gun, or to vote, or to practice your own religion the way you see fit, or whatever constitutional right you think a person shouldn't have....

Why on earth would you ban someone from the grace of Jesus for having that political belief?

If you think that's okay, you don't know Jesus.

 

[BMS]

Well the scripture isnt subject to US law, and the scripture says the church should not associate with those who are immoral. Furthermore, believers used to be murderers, liers, theives etc. so one might ask is he even a Christian.
Jesus does say that if someone sins against you take it to the church and if they still dont listen treat them as a pagan (which would be love them as in the world to witness to them to come to repentance)
Alternatively a better way would be to keep praying for Biden and witnessing the truth so that he changes his mind and the policies on abortion; because we will all have to stand before God on judgement day.

Also remember that leadership has been appointed in the church for authority so it might be worth asking Biden whether he even wants to take communion. I mean if he cant submit to the authority of his church then why does he think US citizens will acknowledge his leadership?

 

[BMS]

So HillsboroMom, do you think the murdering of the unborn in pro-choice abortion is right? If you do then I dont think the Roman Catholic church need to be lectured by you.

Furthermore, what is likely to affect our salvation the most, not being allowed to take communion or supporting the pro-choice killing of unborn offspring.

Remember when Jesus healed the centurion's slave he wasnt condoning swords or killing or slavery.

 

[Nic]

The Catholic Council of Bishops is considering making a statement saying that members who are Catholic but "pro-choice" (such as President Biden) should not be allowed to take Eucharist (Communion).

Good for them.

Why on earth would you ban someone from the grace of Jesus for having that political belief?

Purposes:
One loaf theology.
Protection of those who are against church teaching so that they may not consume/partake the sacrament in an unworthy manner.

 

[HillsboroMom]

Well the scripture isnt subject to US law,

True. And US law isn't subject to Scripture. They should be kept separate.

and the scripture says the church should not associate with those who are immoral.

True. And yet, is there anyone in any pew who is perfect? If only those who are 100% perfect are allowed to be in a church, the church would be empty. Who gets to decide which sins ban someone from membership and which sins are okay? If you say "Scripture," then according to your Scripture, there's only one sin that is "unforgiveable," and that's to blaspheme against the Spirit. That has nothing to do with abortion.

Furthermore, believers used to be murderers, liers, theives etc. so one might ask is he even a Christian.

? Not sure what this means. We are all sinners, and all fall short of the glory of God. At least, that's what your Scripture says. Is your Scripture wrong?

Jesus does say that if someone sins against you take it to the church and if they still dont listen treat them as a pagan (which would be love them as in the world to witness to them to come to repentance)

So, you're saying if a person smokes around me, and doesn't repent, they should be expelled from the church. Does your church follow that rule?

 

[HillsboroMom]

So HillsboroMom, do you think the murdering of the unborn in pro-choice abortion is right?

Let me be clear: I think abortion is awful.

Unless there is a reason that the mother cannot carry the child to term, I think she should do so, and then put it up for adoption if she does not have the means to care for the child herself and/or with help of her family.

But the government doesn't get to decide whether the reason is good enough. The only one who gets to make that decision is the parents, in consultation with a DOCTOR. (And, preferably, in consultation with a spiritual leader like a pastor.)

I am pro-choice, because I don't trust the government to make choices that are out of the scope for the government to make.

If you are not pro-choice, you're saying you trust the government to decide when a woman should carry a child, and when she shouldn't.

You're saying you think the government should be able to decide for us matters of life and death.

I don't understand why so many people don't even trust the government with vaccines or elections, and yet they have no problem letting the government decide whether they are allowed to reproduce or not. Do y'all realize how contradictory you are?

If you do then I dont think the Roman Catholic church need to be lectured by you.

The Catholic Church has many sins. It won't be me who will be lecturing her. This isn't even close to her worst sin. But refusing the Eucharist to someone simply because they agree with a person's constitutional rights certainly ranks up there.

Furthermore, what is likely to affect our salvation the most, not being allowed to take communion or supporting the pro-choice killing of unborn offspring.

See above. If your god is going to send you to hell for compassion, then you're worshiping the wrong god. That's not the God that Jesus taught about.

Don't get me wrong: if you want to worship a god who damns people for making little mis-steps, rather than one who forgives us all through a precious gift of grace, that is absolutely, 100% your right to worship said god. You may practice whatever religion you wish, and believe in whatever faith and values you want. I will defend, to the death, even, your right to worship any god or gods you choose.

I'm just pointing out that that isn't the same god as the one Jesus taught us about.

 

[BMS]

True. And US law isn't subject to Scripture. They should be kept separate.



True. And yet, is there anyone in any pew who is perfect? If only those who are 100% perfect are allowed to be in a church, the church would be empty. Who gets to decide which sins ban someone from membership and which sins are okay? If you say "Scripture," then according to your Scripture, there's only one sin that is "unforgiveable," and that's to blaspheme against the Spirit. That has nothing to do with abortion.




? Not sure what this means. We are all sinners, and all fall short of the glory of God. At least, that's what your Scripture says. Is your Scripture wrong?



So, you're saying if a person smokes around me, and doesn't repent, they should be expelled from the church. Does your church follow that rule?

But we dont support or celebrate sin... through faith in Christ we receive forgiveness for sin. In our fellowship because the Holy Spirit guides us in truth and reminds us of all Jesus taught we pray for Biden.

And we primarily have compassion on the unborn human being. You seem to have compassion on the ones who dont mind murdering humans. . And celebrating corrupting God's image with sexual immorality. Hardly mis steps.

 

[BMS]

True. And US law isn't subject to Scripture. They should be kept separate.



True. And yet, is there anyone in any pew who is perfect? If only those who are 100% perfect are allowed to be in a church, the church would be empty. Who gets to decide which sins ban someone from membership and which sins are okay? If you say "Scripture," then according to your Scripture, there's only one sin that is "unforgiveable," and that's to blaspheme against the Spirit. That has nothing to do with abortion.




? Not sure what this means. We are all sinners, and all fall short of the glory of God. At least, that's what your Scripture says. Is your Scripture wrong?



So, you're saying if a person smokes around me, and doesn't repent, they should be expelled from the church. Does your church follow that rule?

No if someone comes and insists we should all support smoking in the fellowship you offer them a splif do you?

 

[BMS]

Remember HillboroMom, God's heart is to save, that no one should perish but all come to repentance. .. not to willfully continue sinning

So pro-choice abortion which I mentioned is not the same as what it seems we might agree on about abortion.

I would say if Biden is outwardly ok with pro-choice abortion and lgbt then he ought to consider what happens at communion.. this is His body broken for us for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

I was born in a Catholic Hospital. They have a huge share of hospital beds in America. They know things very well that pro-deathers do not know.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Remember HillboroMom, God's heart is to save, that no one should perish but all come to repentance. .. not to willfully continue sinning

So pro-choice abortion which I mentioned is not the same as what it seems we might agree on about abortion.

I would say if Biden is outwardly ok with pro-choice abortion and lgbt then he ought to consider what happens at communion.. this is His body broken for us for the forgiveness of sin.

RCC's have communion frequently
But they get it right even when Joe ignores it

RCC
To receive communion unworthily is a form of sacrilege. It would be committing another grievous sin in addition to the mortal sin. To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Good for them.

Purposes:
One loaf theology.
Protection of those who are against church teaching so that they may not consume/partake the sacrament in an unworthy manner.

“The next Republican that tells me I’m not religious I’m going to shove my rosary beads down their throat,” Biden said in 2005

 

[Nic]

“The next Republican that tells me I’m not religious I’m going to shove my rosary beads down their throat,” Biden said in 2005

Yeah I read that somewhere.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Well the scripture isnt subject to US law, and the scripture says the church should not associate with those who are immoral. Furthermore, believers used to be murderers, liers, theives etc. so one might ask is he even a Christian.
Jesus does say that if someone sins against you take it to the church and if they still dont listen treat them as a pagan (which would be love them as in the world to witness to them to come to repentance)
Alternatively a better way would be to keep praying for Biden and witnessing the truth so that he changes his mind and the policies on abortion; because we will all have to stand before God on judgement day.

Also remember that leadership has been appointed in the church for authority so it might be worth asking Biden whether he even wants to take communion. I mean if he cant submit to the authority of his church then why does he think US citizens will acknowledge his leadership?

Great

I am sure priests know this and follow it.

: “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:15–17)

Time to hit the road Joe. A reporter asked him this week and he had a deer in headlights look. Said it was a private matter. He is years beyond the private matter stage.

 

[HillsboroMom]

But we dont support or celebrate sin... through faith in Christ we receive forgiveness for sin. In our fellowship because the Holy Spirit guides us in truth and reminds us of all Jesus taught we pray for Biden.

And we primarily have compassion on the unborn human being. You seem to have compassion on the ones who dont mind murdering humans. . And celebrating corrupting God's image with sexual immorality. Hardly mis steps.

You keep saying this, but you haven't answered my repeated questions on the matter:

Does your church reject the membership of all members who smoke?

Does your church tell people who own guns that they can't be members?

Or, to be more analogous to the current Catholic policy, even if they don't personally own a gun, if they think that other people should be allowed to own guns, are they kicked to the curb?

If your church doesn't do the above to people whose sins are just as bad as abortion, then you're being completely hypocritical.

For the record, I don't think ANY of these things should bar a person from membership. The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.

The Catholic Church, in words, claims to believe this, too. Before going up for Eucharist, every communicant says these words: "Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed." That's from Scripture, by the way.

They claim to believe that we are all sinners before we receive.

Apparently, the council of bishops, and a lot of people in this forum, believe in a god that is incapable of forgiving sins.

Pity.

My God is way bigger than your god.

 

[BMS]

You keep saying this, but you haven't answered my repeated questions on the matter:

Does your church reject the membership of all members who smoke?

I thought I had answered. Although smoking isn't specifically described in the Biblical testimony let alone as a barrier to the Kingdom, we encourage people not to smoke on the basis that the body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and we are bought at a price.
So with murder, which Jesus says is a sin, what does your church do with people who support the murder of babies by pro-choice abortion? tell them no problem come and take communion? You know if I join a Golf club I don't expect to insist on playing tennis. If I join a club I expect to obey the rules.

Does your church tell people who own guns that they can't be members?

My church tells people killing is against God's purposes. Jesus said forgive and turn the other cheek. Jesus healed the soldier whose ear was cut off. Owning a gun doesn't mean people have to use it. What does your church tell them, 'we support the killing of unborn humans so feel to murder people and receive communion'?

For the record, I don't think ANY of these things should bar a person from membership. The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.

Actually the church is a body of believers and followers of Christ, not a club for all who believe or not. So yes it is a body for saints but it isn't actually a hospital for sinners since everyone is a sinner and the church is just those who believe and trust in Christ for their redemption and salvation, Of course its not just that because God rescues us from the pit and crowns us with glory. And its not just that because having faith in Christ, means we love Jesus and want to follow His teaching which is to help others, heal the sick, feed the poor, repent from sin and and ultimately make other disciples.
So its not a case of membership so much as the shared faith once delivered.
Is your church a club for sinner to be comfortable in their sin?

The Catholic Church, in words, claims to believe this, too. Before going up for Eucharist, every communicant says these words: "Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed." That's from Scripture, by the way.

But of course before that "So let us turn away from sin and turn to the Lord,. confessing our sins in penitence and faith."

They claim to believe that we are all sinners before we receive.

Well I am not a Roman Catholic but they would be right because Jesus says all fall short of the Glory of God. Even the innocent ones who died when the wall collapsed, unless we also repent we too will dies in sin.

Alternatively a better way would be to keep praying for Biden and witnessing the truth so that he changes his mind and the policies on abortion; because we will all have to stand before God on judgement day.

Also remember that leadership has been appointed in the church for authority so it might be worth asking Biden whether he even wants to take communion. I mean if he cant submit to the authority of his church then why does he think US citizens will acknowledge his leadership?

My God is way bigger than your god.
On the contrary My God is Jesus Christ with the Father and the Holy Spirit and He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

If your church doesn't do the above to people whose sins are just as bad as abortion, then you're being completely hypocritical.

Now you need to respond to my points above, especially the bit about communion where Jesus says this is His body broken for the forgiveness of sins. Smoking isnt specified as a sin in the Biblical testimont as far as I am aware but murder is. Are you happy for the murder of unborn humans whilst objecting to someone owning a gun who never uses it?

 

[HillsboroMom]

Now you need to respond to my points above, especially the bit about communion where Jesus says this is His body broken for the forgiveness of sins. Smoking isnt specified as a sin in the Biblical testimont as far as I am aware but murder is. Are you happy for the murder of unborn humans whilst objecting to someone owning a gun who never uses it?

I have answered your points many times.

I am pro-choice because I don't want the government making the decision for women that should be made between a woman and her doctor.

You seem to think the government should be trusted to tell you what you should be able to do with your own body. You seem to think it's perfectly okay for the government to force you to donate organs without your own consent. You should be forced to give up part of your life through no choice of your own, just because the government thinks you should.

Would I donate organs to save another life? Absolutely! But I chafe at the thought of the government FORCING me or anyone to do it, just because they want the power to do it.

I don't think the government always has my best interest at heart. I think in the best of worlds, it might, but "the best of worlds" is not where we live yet. The government is not equipped to make medical decisions for me and my family. The only ones who should be doing that are me and my doctor.

And if you worship a god who would send me to hell because of that, you worship a petty, tiny god who is not worthy of faith, let alone worship or praise.

I also don't think the government has the right to tell people when they can own a gun. I am more concerned about President Biden's interest in reinstating certain gun bans than I am about his stance on abortion.

If the Catholic Church wants to withhold communion from President Biden, they might do so because he hasn't let the migrant children out of the cages at the US/Mexico border yet. Funny how the media isn't holding Biden's feet to the fire about that, the way they did Trump's. Trump was wrong, so is Biden. That would be a fair question a just God might want to challenge him on.

If the Catholic Church wants to withhold communion from President Biden, they might do so because he isn't being more pro-active to get Visas to the Afghan and Iraqi interpreters who helped the US in our middle-east wars and are being abandoned now, who will certainly be murdered for betrayal to their respective governments. That is something a just God would hold against him.

If the Catholic Church wants to withhold communion from President Biden, they might ask why he is excusing US Corporations who use child slavery in other countries, causing the death of thousands of children in horrible working conditions, yet they're allowed to sell their goods in the US with no restrictions and no sanctions. That's something a just God might demand penance for.

But thinking that a woman should be able to talk to a doctor rather than a senator about her reproductive choices? Your god would send Biden to hell because of that, and not for any of the other things?

Nope. Your god is too small.

 

[BMS]

I have answered your points many times.

You haven't answered my point. My point is what Jesus made the communion, His body broken for the forgiveness of sin. You seem to think smoking was a sin otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. In fact it looks like Biden took communion at guess what surprise surprise and lgbt affirming church. As if we couldn't have guessed.. so thats two sins.

I am pro-choice because I don't want the government making the decision for women that should be made between a woman and her doctor.

And I don't want people murdering unborn human beings whoever it is. I tell you what, stop the mother going to the doctor for an abortion.

You seem to think the government should be trusted to tell you what you should be able to do with your own body.

Yes. murdering unborn humans is not acceptable.

You seem to think it's perfectly okay for the government to force you to donate organs without your own consent.

You seem to think chow humans are conceived and born is something you should prevent.

You should be forced to give up part of your life through no choice of your own, just because the government thinks you should.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. - Romans 1

you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. 1 Cor 6

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 1 Cor 7


If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. - Matt 5

Would I donate organs to save another life? Absolutely! But I chafe at the thought of the government FORCING me or anyone to do it, just because they want the power to do it.

So you would give an organ to save a life whilst you would murder your own offspring?

And if you worship a god who would send me to hell because of that, you worship a petty, tiny god who is not worthy of faith, let alone worship or praise.

I dont get to judge, all I can do is show you the truth and what God says in His word.

If the Catholic Church wants to withhold communion from President Biden, they might do so because he hasn't let the migrant children out of the cages at the US/Mexico border yet.

Well they migrant children are still living unlike the unborn humans in pro-choice abortion,

If the Catholic Church wants to withhold communion from President Biden, they might do so because he isn't being more pro-active to get Visas to the Afghan and Iraqi interpreters who helped the US in our middle-east wars and are being abandoned now, who will certainly be murdered for betrayal to their respective governments. That is something a just God would hold against him.

So if the Catholic Church are going to withhold communion from Biden because he supports the killing of unborn humans, you have other suggestions?? What has that got to with it. If the Iraqi interpreters are still living then they are in a better position than the unborn humans killed in pro-choice abortion
etc.

But thinking that a woman should be able to talk to a doctor rather than a senator about her reproductive choices?

DO WHAT?? Abortion isn't a reproductive choice, it is murder of human being that has been reproduced. Where did you get that mentally deranged idea?

Your god would send Biden to hell because of that, and not for any of the other things?

Pretending you know God and others don't because you don't agree with God's word, doesn't work with me.

You haven't really responded to anything I have said; all you have done is spew out a lot of personal worldly grievances.





Nope. Your god is too small.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

You haven't answered my point. My point is what Jesus made the communion, His body broken for the forgiveness of sin. You seem to think smoking was a sin otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. In fact it looks like Biden took communion at guess what surprise surprise and lgbt affirming church. As if we couldn't have guessed.. so thats two sins.

Biden is married to a divorced woman whose spouse is still living, a hardline 'no' for communion

 

[J regia]

You haven't answered my point. My point is what Jesus made the communion, His body broken for the forgiveness of sin.

Where did Jesus say that he wanted to be executed for sedition so that you could continue to sin?