How "pro-life" is it to deny the sacrament?

Nic

Well-known member
Often they do.

It is legal in most states to shoot someone if they break into your home.

Yet you think that should not be legal. You think the government should make all your decisions for you, including whether it's okay to kill someone to protect your own health or property.

You and I clearly disagree about the amount of power the government should have. I don't believe we should be sheep with regard to the secular government. I am a sheep for my Shepherd only. Not for any human.

Yet, I support your right to worship the government, if you so choose.

Would you support my right not to worship human power?
The commandment for clarity should be understood as murder.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Care to explain why? Please keep the commandment in view.
Because it is legal. The commandment does not abjure legal killing. There are other reasons why abortion is not murder, but they don't involve the comparison.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Because it is legal. The commandment does not abjure legal killing. There are other reasons why abortion is not murder, but they don't involve the comparison.
The child within the mother is alive. To honor the commandment, the child is loved not executed.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
The child within the mother is alive. To honor the commandment, the child is loved not executed.
You said that the commandment should be read as thou shalt not murder.

Murder is a legal term that refers exclusively to illegal killing, and not all of those.

Abortion is legal.

Therefore abortion is neither murder, nor is it condemned by the commandment.

If you don't agree, then please explain which of the statements above is false.
 

Nic

Well-known member
You said that the commandment should be read as thou shalt not murder.

Murder is a legal term that refers exclusively to illegal killing, and not all of those.

Abortion is legal.

Therefore abortion is neither murder, nor is it condemned by the commandment.

If you don't agree, then please explain which of the statements above is false.
I said keep the commandment in view, not the law society defines. If you wish a summary bullet point of the second table of the commandments, it would be love your neighbor as yourself.
 
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Temujin

Well-known member
I said keep the commandment in view, not the law society defines. If you wish a summary bullet point of the second table of the commandments, it would love your neighbor as yourself.
Really? In that case, you should be able to give examples of killing which the law allows, but the commandment condemns. Or indeed vice versa. Or is it that abortion is for some reason a special case?

As for loving ones neighbour, some Christians argue that this is why abortion should be both legal and easily accessible. There are both atheists and Christians on both sides of the abortion controversy.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Often they do.

It is legal in most states to shoot someone if they break into your home.

Yet you think that should not be legal. You think the government should make all your decisions for you, including whether it's okay to kill someone to protect your own health or property.

You and I clearly disagree about the amount of power the government should have. I don't believe we should be sheep with regard to the secular government. I am a sheep for my Shepherd only. Not for any human.

Yet, I support your right to worship the government, if you so choose.

Would you support my right not to worship human power?
You think reframing things is going to convince anyone. It's not. I believe in the Romans 13 authority of government that comes from God.
 
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Nic

Well-known member
Really? In that case, you should be able to give examples of killing which the law allows, but the commandment condemns. Or indeed vice versa. Or is it that abortion is for some reason a special case?

As for loving ones neighbour, some Christians argue that this is why abortion should be both legal and easily accessible. There are both atheists and Christians on both sides of the abortion controversy.
Sure to love your neighbor is more defined in the second table of the ten commandments. Go back to the specific commandments if you wish, these should be observed in both negative and positive senses.
In fairness to your request, I ask a request of you. I'm a caretaker for my elderly parent with little sleep as a norm. I ask that I answer for you when I'm more rested. My intention was not to engage beyond aiding the apparent confusion of killing and murder to a person who failed to see a difference. So for now, I have to stay awake for both my parent's continued care and the satellite installer who gave us a 5 hour window beginning at 12 noon. The 5 hr window is on what time he may arrive, then I'm told it could take 3 or more hours for the install.
 
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Temujin

Well-known member
Sure to love your neighbor is more defined in the second table of the ten commandments. Go back to the specific commandments if you wish, these should be observed in both negative and positive senses.
In fairness to your request, I ask a request of you. I'm a caretaker for my elderly parent with little sleep as a norm. I ask that I answer for you when I'm more rested. My intention was not to engage beyond aiding the apparent confusion of killing and murder to a person who failed to see a difference. So for now, I have to stay awake for both my parent's continued care and the satellite installer who gave us a 5 hour window beginning at 12 noon. The 5 hr window is on what time he may arrive, then I'm told it could take 3 or more hours for the install.
Of course. Take as much time as you wish. I wish you and the person you care for, all the best. The satellite installer can look out for himself (or herself).
 
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Nic

Well-known member
Of course. Take as much time as you wish. I wish you and the person you care for, all the best. The satellite installer can look out for himself (or herself).
Thank you. I had a two or so hour nap. And was checking in, still no word on my "Larry the cable guy." My mom finally fell asleep.
 

HillsboroMom

Active member
The child within the mother is alive. To honor the commandment, the child is loved not executed.
So is anyone who is killed. You seem to be making a distinction between "murder" and "killing." If "killing" is okay but "murder" is not okay, then what (in your opinion) is the distinction?

Clearly, the fact that the victim is alive is not the distinction alive, because all victims of killing are alive before they are killed.

What makes some killing "murder" and not others?
 

HillsboroMom

Active member
You think reframing things is going to convince anyone. It's not. I believe in the Romans 13 authority of government that comes from God.
I'm not interested in "convincing" anyone.

I know I'm not going to convince you. You don't even agree with the Bible, so there's no point arguing with you.
 

Nic

Well-known member
So is anyone who is killed. You seem to be making a distinction between "murder" and "killing." If "killing" is okay but "murder" is not okay, then what (in your opinion) is the distinction?

Clearly, the fact that the victim is alive is not the distinction alive, because all victims of killing are alive before they are killed.

What makes some killing "murder" and not others?
I'll try to make it clear as possible. Home invasion occurs and the family is slaughtered, this would be murder. On the opposite end of the spectrum with same example home invasion occurs yet the intruder is killed while attempting to harm the family. The intruder was killed not murdered. Does that help, or would like another example?
 

J regia

Well-known member
That's not what those passages command.
So what is the fate of the pregnancy when a pregnant adulteress is commanded to be stoned to death (Leviticus 20:10)?

And what is the fate of the pregnancy when a pregnant adulteress is commanded to drink a "bitter water" abortifacient instead and say "so be it, so be it" (Numbers 5:20-28)?

Numbers 5:20-28 NIV
20 But if you have gone astray(A) while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse(B)—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[a] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water(C) that brings a curse(D) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.(E)”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll(F) and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord(G) and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[b] offering(H) and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.(I) 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
 
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