How the rabbinical "Two Messiahs" concept points to a Messiah who is killed and resurrects

shnarkle

Well-known member
"Unusual" is really the least thing that can be said about the situation, considering the multiple times God promised Abraham that he'll father a great nation, and later on specifically told him that it would be from Isaac, and then God goes and tells him to sacrifice Isaac, still unmarried and childless at that point.
It's not unusual for someone like Abraham. God calls him, and tells him to gather up his belongings, pull up stakes and leave his home. When his family and servants ask where they're all going, he can only reply, "I haven't got a clue". Abraham isn't the type to just make false assumptions. When they see the mountain, Abraham doesn't say that he will return, but that he and Isaac will return. Nothing unusual at all for a man of faith.

Again, there's a wordplay with "bring him up". The Sages point out that God doesn't say to sacrifice him; well some of the Sages make that claim. It's similar to the idea of Jephthah's vow which most assume requires him to sacrifice his daughter, but that's not what's going on in the text there either. In Paul's letters we see him enjoining his readers to be a living sacrifice. For most people, this is abhorrent as well.
 

Harel13

Active member
It's not unusual for someone like Abraham. God calls him, and tells him to gather up his belongings, pull up stakes and leave his home. When his family and servants ask where they're all going, he can only reply, "I haven't got a clue". Abraham isn't the type to just make false assumptions. When they see the mountain, Abraham doesn't say that he will return, but that he and
I'm afraid I must disagree. Everything Abraham did until this point in his life was towards the grand goal of fathering a great nation for God. Leaving Charan to go to the Promised Land, building up wealth in Egypt, having a son with Hagar, sending away Hagar and Ishmael later - all this was part of the plan. This, having to throw his life's work away, is absolutely not part of the plan, at least in Abraham's eyes.
 

rakovsky

Active member
Again, there's a wordplay with "bring him up". The Sages point out that God doesn't say to sacrifice him; well some of the Sages make that claim.
I made a separate thread on it here:
I welcome you to focus more on your idea that the text does not actually have an order for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Since the Hebrew expression "ascend/bring up a burnt offering" means elsewhere to actually perform the sacrifice, I think that it probably does here too. In light of the substitution concept in Israelite worship (eg. the Yom Kippur sacrifices and other Torah sacrifice rituals) and the Israelites' practice of sacrifice of using animals instead of children, my guess would be that the ram sacrifice counted as a sacrifice of Isaac.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I'm afraid I must disagree. Everything Abraham did until this point in his life was towards the grand goal of fathering a great nation for God. Leaving Charan to go to the Promised Land, building up wealth in Egypt, having a son with Hagar, sending away Hagar and Ishmael later - all this was part of the plan. This, having to throw his life's work away, is absolutely not part of the plan, at least in Abraham's eyes.
Again, you seem to be reading something into the text that simply isn't there to begin with. Abraham is not under the impression that he will be returning from the mountain alone. If he was going up to offer his son as a burnt offering, Isaac would be burnt to ashes, and left to blow away in the wind.
 

rakovsky

Active member
Again, you seem to be reading something into the text that simply isn't there to begin with. Abraham is not under the impression that he will be returning from the mountain alone. If he was going up to offer his son as a burnt offering, Isaac would be burnt to ashes, and left to blow away in the wind.
Can you please continue your thoughtful discussion on Abraham on the other thread I made?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Can you please continue your thoughtful discussion on Abraham on the other thread I made?
I don't know where it is. I was just responding to what someone else posted to me. I'm sorry if it bothers you. Please don't take this personally, but I don't understand why this bothers you so much. It's not like it has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not trying to highjack the topic, and if someone's posts are bothering me, I can just click "ignore." Then their content ceases to appear on my screen anymore. It's a great way to allow others to continue to read what they post without any interference from me. I don't have to try and control what others feel like posting. I can just ignore it. I'm going to place your content on "Ignore" now to show you how easy it really is. I can only suggest that you do the same. Trust me, it really works. You'll never have to read anything I post ever again. It's easy and instantaneous.
 

Harel13

Active member
Again, you seem to be reading something into the text that simply isn't there to begin with. Abraham is not under the impression that he will be returning from the mountain alone. If he was going up to offer his son as a burnt offering, Isaac would be burnt to ashes, and left to blow away in the wind.
What sort of test is that, then? It says God is testing Abraham. If all they do is go up to a mountain and come back down, big whoop. I've climbed mountains before. I don't see that commemorated in scripture...
 

Harel13

Active member
I don't know where it is. I was just responding to what someone else posted to me. I'm sorry if it bothers you. Please don't take this personally, but I don't understand why this bothers you so much. It's not like it has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not trying to highjack the topic, and if someone's posts are bothering me, I can just click "ignore." Then their content ceases to appear on my screen anymore. It's a great way to allow others to continue to read what they post without any interference from me. I don't have to try and control what others feel like posting. I can just ignore it. I'm going to place your content on "Ignore" now to show you how easy it really is. I can only suggest that you do the same. Trust me, it really works. You'll never have to read anything I post ever again. It's easy and instantaneous.
He's not saying he's bothered by your posts nor is he saying you're hijacking the thread, he's just interested in separating topics to give each topic enough room. Myself, I don't usually care too much, I don't mind continuing here.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
He's not saying he's bothered by your posts nor is he saying you're hijacking the thread, he's just interested in separating topics to give each topic enough room. Myself, I don't usually care too much, I don't mind continuing here.
My technological ineptitude as well as my failing memory makes it difficult to do what he's asking me to do. I don't want to offend anyone so I'm going to concede whatever points were made. He sounded pretty annoyed so I'll probably just see if I can figure out how to ignore this thread altogether from now on.
 

Harel13

Active member
My technological ineptitude as well as my failing memory makes it difficult to do what he's asking me to do. I don't want to offend anyone so I'm going to concede whatever points were made. He sounded pretty annoyed so I'll probably just see if I can figure out how to ignore this thread altogether from now on.
No, he actually does think that what you're saying is thoughtful and interesting and wants to give it more of a spotlight.
 

rakovsky

Active member
My technological ineptitude as well as my failing memory makes it difficult to do what he's asking me to do.
Shnarkle,
I wasn't offended. It is just a matter of keeping online discussions easier for everyone (myself included) to follow. I'm not a moderator. Just as a general rule, it's easiest to have discussions when they follow the thread topic.

Here is the link for the thread that I made in the Judaism section of the CARM forum about Abraham's sacrifice. You should probably be able to just click on it and your computer will take you there:
forums.carm.org/threads/did-the-lord-tell-abraham-to-go-to-sacrifice-isaac-and-if-so-why.2009/

You should probably be able to just click on this link.

Peace - Shalom
 

rakovsky

Active member
Lol. Someone please tell Shnarkle my annoyance level was like 1.5 out of 10 and to unignore me so he can read my link.
 

Harel13

Active member
I think he also provided a link which I've already lost.
He asks that you unignore him to read these two messages: https://forums.carm.org/threads/how...-who-is-killed-and-resurrects.377/post-130770

 
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