How to know that God exists.

yrger

Member
But there is chaos. There isn't on the atomic level, but there is on our level, just go into an asteroid field and you will find chaos.
yrger said:
Here I go again.


Everything in existence are inter-connected and working together, that is why there is no chaos.

What are those everything?

First of course there is God, then everything created by God.

That explains why there is no chaos.
But there is chaos. There isn't on the atomic level, but there is on our level, just go into an asteroid field and you will find chaos.

---------------------

Hi Whatsisface, you say: "just go into an asteroid field and you will find chaos."

Have you ever been to "an asteroid field"?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
But there is chaos. There isn't on the atomic level, but there is on our level, just go into an asteroid field and you will find chaos.

---------------------

Hi Whatsisface, you say: "just go into an asteroid field and you will find chaos."

Have you ever been to "an asteroid field"?
No, of course not, but the asteroids won't be moving in lockstep with each, other always maintaining the same distance from one another in a nice, neat pattern.

Were you at Jesus' resurrection?
 

5wize

Well-known member
I will show you how: let yourself do genuine thinking:

"The rest of you not out of your mind, think:
In ultimate summation, God and His existence are synonymous, i.e. they are identical - that is why there is something God cannot do, namely, to commit suicide."

Let you 5wize think positively instead of negatively.

1. There is existence.
2. Existence are of two kinds.
3. Permanent and transient.
4. Transient existence depends on permanent existence to stay in existence.
5. In ultimae summation, the permanent existence "equates to an eternal disembodied mind that possesses a will and intent to create."
6. I call that God.
I'm pretty sure it is you who are refusing to to practice genuine thinking here, unless you are completely misunderstanding the question posed to you and how it relates to your assertion. You didn't show us how pure existence equates to an eternal disembodied mind that possesses a will and intent to create.... you just asserted it again.

Let me show you where my simple question weaves into your bold and unfounded assertion (in red).

1. There is existence.
2. Existence are of two kinds.
3. Permanent and transient.
4. Transient existence depends on permanent existence to stay in existence.
Not true. Permanent existence may spawn off independent self contained paradigms not requiring the permanent existence to further intervene with the transient existence.
5. In ultimate summation, the permanent existence "equates to an eternal disembodied mind that possesses a will and intent to create."
Missing many, many steps. This is where you need to tell us why the ultimate forces that formed us were not as free of intent as a tree that drops an acorn. Why is intent necessary for a natural phenomenon like us to occur?
6. I call that God.
Like I said, missing many, many steps which makes your assertion unfounded and easy to dismiss when we actually use genuine thinking.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Yes, it does follow, because transient existence has no other possibility of surviving in existence, except from the continuous creative power of the permanent self-existent God keeping it in existence.
Prove it.
Anyway, Eightcrackers, may I ask you to explain how and why you allege that "5. does not follow"?
#5 has just been stapled onto the end of the argument, not arrived at via the argument.

You must prove what you said above, in order for it to follow.
 

mikeT

Well-known member
If you can't be bothered to follow along the thread of conversation, I'm not going to be bothered to do your work for you. -You are most dishonest and dishonorable.

----------------

Hi MikeT:
You accuse me of tautology because you read a post of mine, and I requested you to "Please reproduce my post verbatim and the post #, so that you and I can see that you are mistaken with what you allege me to have said."



You irrationally refused to comply with my polite request.

That shows that you are in bad faith.

And you are dishonest with intentionally reading wrongly my post, because you already have the illogical bias to see tautology when there is none, except in your dishonest heart and mind.

-----------

PS Anyway, allow me to request you to explain what for you is a tautology - and give an exemple of tautology; and also what is the purpose of a tautology.
I've already answered the question you asked about evidence, and you're refusing to respond to it - insultingly demanding that I provide other definitions and examples.

This is what you did repeatedly the last time you posted to the CARM forums.

Until you respond to what I've written (aka. your god is a pantheistic tautology), you wont get me to waste my time any further.
 

JAG

Active member
No, of course not, but the asteroids won't be moving in lockstep with each, other always maintaining the same distance from one another in a nice, neat pattern.

Were you at Jesus' resurrection?
Well my my my! Whadda ya know! Lo and behold it is WIF . . . STILL HERE at
CARM holding forth for unbelief.

I am glad to see that you are not dead, which means there is still hope.

And I hope you have been doing well and that the Grim Reaper is not
on your trail.

Let me share with you what I just wrote to an atheist on another forum --
an atheist that gave me the standard line that he did not have a choice
to believe in the God of the Bible or in Christianity.

Here is what I told him {and I also tell you the same thing}

JAG said:

It is a choice.

You do in truth have a Free Will. However the choice works this way:
You have to have supernatural help to be brought to the place where
you can make a choice.

You have a sinful nature (we all do) that does not want anything to do
with God your Creator and therefore you must have supernatural help
to be brought to the point where you can actually pray the sinner's
prayer and be saved.

You can not possibly do this in your own strength.

You MUST have God's supernatural help to do this.

So what is step one?

Its very simple:

You only have to ask the Lord to help you come to the place where
you can believe and be saved.

Pray that simple prayer from the heart sincerely and your life will
either suddenly or gradually change in hugely wonderful, blessed
ways.

Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner dead in sin, and I ask that
you help me to come to the place where I can sincerely pray the
following prayer:

Lord Jesus I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins
and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come
into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and
Savior. In Your Name. Amen.

Best Regards,

JAG

[]
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Well my my my! Whadda ya know! Lo and behold it is WIF . . . STILL HERE at
CARM holding forth for unbelief.
Yes, I'm afraid so, it possibly being one of the saddest aspects of my life.

And here you are, making one of your rare appearances.
I am glad to see that you are not dead, which means there is still hope.
Me too.
And I hope you have been doing well and that the Grim Reaper is not
on your trail.
He's had one or two pot shots, but didn't hit anything crucial. I hope you are similarly well if not better JAG.
Let me share with you what I just wrote to an atheist on another forum --
an atheist that gave me the standard line that he did not have a choice
to believe in the God of the Bible or in Christianity.

Here is what I told him {and I also tell you the same thing}

JAG said:

It is a choice.

You do in truth have a Free Will. However the choice works this way:
You have to have supernatural help to be brought to the place where
you can make a choice.

You have a sinful nature (we all do) that does not want anything to do
with God your Creator and therefore you must have supernatural help
to be brought to the point where you can actually pray the sinner's
prayer and be saved.

You can not possibly do this in your own strength.

You MUST have God's supernatural help to do this.

So what is step one?

Its very simple:

You only have to ask the Lord to help you come to the place where
you can believe and be saved.

Pray that simple prayer from the heart sincerely and your life will
either suddenly or gradually change in hugely wonderful, blessed
ways.

Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner dead in sin, and I ask that
you help me to come to the place where I can sincerely pray the
following prayer:

Lord Jesus I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins
and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come
into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and
Savior. In Your Name. Amen.

Best Regards,

JAG

[]
JAG, I know you mean well, but there are reasons that what you wrote to that atheist won't cut any ice. For example, I understand why he would say he doesn't have a choice to believe, and nothing you wrote after that shows you understand where he's coming from nor addresses it. In fact you wrote things to engage him that come from your point of view alone, not his, so you didn't address his objections.

In the end, if you want to engage an atheist you have to at least at first make sense from his/her point of view. The basics might be (I can't speak for everyone of course) verifiable evidence and some good reason to think that what the Bible says is true.

If you want to discuss this in more detail to at least understand where atheists are coming from that's fine.

In goodwill, Whatsisface.
 
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Whatsisface

Well-known member
Deaf ears - the Bible tells Christians where we're coming from, and nothing we can say has any chance of overturning that.
You may well have a point in this case, you certainly do for some if not most here. But what can I do to try and get a bit more reasonableness in the discussion besides through the use of reason?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Were you there to witness it didn't happen? (despite the witnesses that say it did happen)
No, but you make a basic error with this. Logically we should believe something true when there is good reason for it, not when there is no reason against it, otherwise you would end up believing all sorts of nonsense.

Me not being there to witness it is a no evidence against position, it is not an evidence for position

That you think we have eye witness accounts of the resurrection goes against the majority of Biblical scholarship, including Christian scholarship.
 

JAG

Active member
Yes, I'm afraid so, it possibly being one of the saddest aspects of my life.

And here you are, making one of your rare appearances.

Me too.

He's had one or two pot shots, but didn't hit anything crucial. I hope you are similarly well if not better JAG.

JAG, I know you mean well, but there are reasons that what you wrote to that atheist won't cut any ice. For example, I understand why he would say he doesn't have a choice to believe, and nothing you wrote after that shows you understand where he's coming from and so addresses it. In fact you wrote things to engage him that come from your point of view alone, not his, so you didn't address his objections.

In the end, if you want to engage an atheist you have to at least at first make sense from his/her point of view. The basics might be (I can't speak for everyone of course) verifiable evidence and some good reason to think that what the Bible says is true.

If you want to discuss this in more detail to at least understand where atheists are are coming from that's fine.

In goodwill, Whatsisface.
Hello again WIF.

Yes I do mean well.

And you have made this same point 100, 000,000 times:

______________________________________________________________________

Here is the point that WIF has made 100,000,000 times:

"I understand why he would say he doesn't have a choice to believe,
and nothing you wrote after that shows you understand where he's

coming from and so addresses it. In fact you wrote things to engage
him that come from your point of view alone, not his, so you didn't
address his objections.

In the end, if you want to engage an atheist you have to at least at first

make sense from his/her point of view. The basics might be (I can't speak
for everyone of course) verifiable evidence and some good reason to think
that what the Bible says is true."__WIF

________________________________________________________________________________

Here is the answer to your point:

There is no such thing as verifiable evidence to demonstrate the truth of Christianity.

Why not?

Because Christianity is a FAITH.

If you could demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true then
Christianity would NO LONGER BE A FAITH -- it would then become a
theological-philosophical intellectual system just like math and physics.

WIF you don't any faith to believe that 2 + 2 = 4

_________________


WIF it appears you are doomed to haunt threads until the Grim Reaper finally
comes for you -- to haunt threads making the identical SAME points over
and over again. (How can you mentally endure that? For decades?)

Listen WIF, it'd be much easier for you . . for your life . . for your mental and
emotional well being, if you would JUST GIVE UP! And GO WITH FAITH. This
"brainy stuff" is not making you happy. Humans were created to be happy.
And for Eternal Life.

Ask God to help you to have FAITH in Him.

Best Regards,

JAG

[]
 
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Whatsisface

Well-known member
Hello again WIF.

Yes I do mean well.

And you have made this same point 100, 000,000 times:

______________________________________________________________________

Here is the point that WIF has made 100,000,000 times:

"I understand why he would say he doesn't have a choice to believe,
and nothing you wrote after that shows you understand where he's

coming from and so addresses it. In fact you wrote things to engage
him that come from your point of view alone, not his, so you didn't
address his objections.

In the end, if you want to engage an atheist you have to at least at first

make sense from his/her point of view. The basics might be (I can't speak
for everyone of course) verifiable evidence and some good reason to think
that what the Bible says is true."__WIF

________________________________________________________________________________

Here is the answer to your point:

There is no such thing as verifiable evidence to demonstrate the truth of Christianity.

Why not?

Because Christianity is a FAITH.

If you could demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true then
Christianity would NO LONGER BE A FAITH -- it would then become a
theological-philosophical intellectual system just like math and physics.

WIF you don't any faith to believe that 2 + 2 = 4
Then you give me no good reason to think Christianity true.

Can you give the precise reason you think it true?
WIF it appears you are doomed to haunt thread until the Grim Reaper finally
comes for you -- to haunt threads making the identical SAME points over
and over again. (How can you mentally endure that? For decades?)

Listen WIF, it'd be much easier for you . . for your life . . for your mental and
emotional well being, if you would JUST GIVE UP! And GO WITH FAITH. This
"brainy stuff" is not making you happy. Humans were created to be happy.
And for Eternal Life.

Ask God to help you to have FAITH in Him.
I'm afraid you're making the same mistake with me as with the other atheist you spoke of, just talking to me from your point of view without understanding mine.

Do you understand why I might not think faith carries any weight, that it might not get you to the truth? You don't have to agree, but do you at least understand it?
Best Regards,

JAH

[]
Likewise.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Here is the answer to your point:

There is no such thing as verifiable evidence to demonstrate the truth of Christianity.

Why not?

Because Christianity is a FAITH.

If you could demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true then
Christianity would NO LONGER BE A FAITH -- it would then become a
theological-philosophical intellectual system just like math and physics.
I have trouble believing that the creator of the universe would endow alone his most beloved creations with the power of reason, but then put the most important question there ever was or ever will be - that of his very existence - beyond it.

It's like giving somebody an ambulance that they can never drive to a hospital.
 

JAG

Active member
But what can I do to try and get a bit more reasonableness in the discussion besides through the use of reason?
That is your problem. YOU are The Reason King.

You have to come to the place where you renounce your false assumption that it is YOU
that decides what is, or is not, reasonable.

It is not YOU that gets to decide that.

That is the role of the Sovereign God.

It is He who decides what is or is not reasonable.

And He has put His decisions on that in a Book.

We call that book the Bible.

I bet you have one in your library.

Best.

JAG

[]
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
That is your problem. YOU are The Reason King.

You have to come to the place where you renounce your false assumption that it is YOU
that decides what is, or is not, reasonable.

It is not YOU that gets to decide that.

That is the role of the Sovereign God.
I agree, I don't decide that, logic does,
It is He who decides what is or is not reasonable.
So, does God decide whether it is reasonable to have a married bachelor, or do the definitions of the words married and bachelor decide the matter? (This is a point of logic.)
And He has put His decisions on that in a Book.

We call that book the Bible.

I bet you have one in your library.

Best.

JAG

[]
I do not.
 
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JAG

Active member
I have trouble believing that the creator of the universe would endow alone his most beloved creations with the power of reason, but then put the most important question there ever was or ever will be - that of his very existence - beyond it.

It's like giving somebody an ambulance that they can never drive to a hospital.
"I have trouble"__Eightcrackers
Use your Free Will.
Choose NOT to have trouble with the fact that Christianity is a FAITH.

CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE TROUBLE

"Without faith it is impossible to please God" says God in the Bible.

Christianity gives you a compassionate ultimatum.

You will in fact end up Free Will choosing one of these:

(1) believe in the Lord Jesus as your Savior and get Eternal Life.

or

(2) refuse to believe and experience the perish of John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only
Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to
condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because they
have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."
John chapter 3

Best

JAG

[]
 

CrowCross

Super Member
No, but you make a basic error with this. Logically we should believe something true when there is good reason for it, not when there is no reason against it, otherwise you would end up believing all sorts of nonsense.

Me not being there to witness it is a no evidence against position, it is not an evidence for position

That you think we have eye witness accounts of the resurrection goes against the majority of Biblical scholarship, including Christian scholarship.
No, the Bible describes the resurrection in the same fashion Washington crossing the Delaware is described....witnessed...I have made no basic error.
As to the so-called christians scholars you have mentioned who have denied the resurrection....they are not Christians.

1 For 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.
 
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