How to know that God exists.

yrger

Member
Actually, you have to keep the teachings of Jesus and his response will corroborate their reality.

Jesus followers have been learning to do this for millennia and it's worked quite famously.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

so, do what Jesus said and then they will come and make their home with you.

Having been living with my wife for the past 32+ years has made it utterly impossible to mistake her reality.
In like manner, living with Jesus and God in my life for the past 45+ years has made it utterly impossible to mistake their reality.


Let's go to the concept of God.

Do you have the generic concept of God?
Here it is:
"God is the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

If your God does not meet at least this generic concept of God, then it is not worth believing in, nor denying: because it is a deficient God.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Let's go to the concept of God.

Do you have the generic concept of God?
Here it is:
"God is the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."
🤔

Perhaps this is the first problem.
Why not just use the description given to us by YHVH himself?

He did tell us to not create false gods.

Deu 5:7-11 WEB 7 “You shall have no other gods before me. 8 “You shall not make a carved image for yourself—any likeness of what is in heaven above, or what is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 9 You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me 10 and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. 11 “You shall not misuse the name of Yahweh your God; for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who misuses his name.

If you actually want to be an idolater, I suppose you can indeed do that. But it won't get you any closer to the True and Living God.

Looking at his Law, it's pretty clear that he wants us to have a clear and accurate understanding of him.
If your God does not meet at least this generic concept of God, then it is not worth believing in, nor denying: because it is a deficient God.
Seems like you need to learn how YHVH wants us to view him.

Then instead of speculating, you can actually meet him. He's pretty clear that he's really interested in knowing us, and us knowing Him.
 

yrger

Member
I take c.

(Nothing proves any God)

yrger said:
Very briefly:
a. Man is a transient entity i.e. he is here today and then after some years of life like as much as 90 years plus, he dies.
b. The transient existence of man inevitably implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
d. Therefore God exists.

I take c.

(Nothing proves any God)

------------------

Something is wrong here:

"Very briefly:
a. Man is a transient entity i.e. he is here today and then after some years of life like as much as 90 years plus, he dies.
b. The transient existence of man inevitably implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
d. Therefore God exists."


There should be a c.

Correction:
"Very briefly:
a. Man is a transient entity i.e. he is here today and then after some years of life like as much as 90 years plus, he dies.
b. The transient existence of man inevitably implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
>>c. So man you and I and all humans we are the evidence for the existence of God.<<
d. Therefore God exists."
 

yrger

Member
🤔

Perhaps this is the first problem.
Why not just use the description given to us by YHVH himself?

He did tell us to not create false gods.

Deu 5:7-11 WEB 7 “You shall have no other gods before me. 8 “You shall not make a carved image for yourself—any likeness of what is in heaven above, or what is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 9 You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me 10 and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. 11 “You shall not misuse the name of Yahweh your God; for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who misuses his name.

If you actually want to be an idolater, I suppose you can indeed do that. But it won't get you any closer to the True and Living God.

Looking at his Law, it's pretty clear that he wants us to have a clear and accurate understanding of him.

Seems like you need to learn how YHVH wants us to view him.

Then instead of speculating, you can actually meet him. He's pretty clear that he's really interested in knowing us, and us knowing Him.

"Seems like you need to learn how YHVH wants us to view him."

That will require me to have faith in the Bible as the self-revelation of God.

That brings in the discussion of how faith and reason should inter-play in the search for God.

According to Catholic theologians, faith does not contradict reason, faith is superior to reason: so that while with reason man meets God as the creator of nature, it is by faith that man ascends to the God of supernature.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Have you a limited entity like me, succeeded to put nature under your observation, when scientists admit they can only see just a mere 4% of the universe, and the remainder of the universe is all dark to them?
Don't you find it interesting that we agree that we see and understand so little of what we are actually able to in this transcended world around us, but you don't stop at that level of common ignorance in your assertions? No, you take a giant step over the 96% of the unknown that is available to us, ignore it, and instead try to define the transcendent that isn't available to us - for us. How do you rate? Why don't you stick to what you can possibly know?

Do you know why it is so easy for you to ignore the 96% and just go for the transcendent? Because the 96% takes effort. That knowledge many are too lazy to study, so you try to make a stab at the transcendent instead because it can't be defined or studied by the transcended world so you have free reign to make up whatever you want. It's easy, and cheap.
Anyway, you say there is no God, what is your concept of God? Because if you don't have a concept of God, then you don't know what you are denying to exist - that is absurd from your part.
What is my concept of Gods that don't exist? Easy.... Any sentient disembodied mind that creates and directs whatever it desires by the power of it's will.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
"Seems like you need to learn how YHVH wants us to view him."

That will require me to have faith in the Bible as the self-revelation of God.
Not the sole, but primary.
Otherwise, you're making yourself a creator and worshiper of false gods.
It leaves you just as dead as the atheists.

That brings in the discussion of how faith and reason should inter-play in the search for God.
Indeed.
We're instructed in the Proverbs and by Jesus himself on this.
The very concept of repent is based on the word, metanoia. Metanoia simply means to change your mind.
In this application, it means to change your mind about God, and his ways, to agree with him.

In June 1977, I knew nothing about all this bible stuff.
I was a pothead, stoner, used various drugs, alcohol and whatever else I could find to numb the truth of my life and world.

I despised man-made religious beliefs. I'd talked with a variety of people who claimed numerous different ideas and beliefs about gods, God, and philosophy. None of them were of interest to me.

Then one night I was invited to a church where they talked about Jesus.
Not the Jesus of religion. But a Jesus who was real, alive, and in our every day world.
Still, nothing really struck me about it. Then I observed something that struck a cord. It got to the very core of my beliefs about life in general. That was enough to stop me dead in my tracks, and get passed all the people and all the arguments and debates about God, to the point where I asked God himself.

Are you for real? Is this Jesus stuff I'm hearing for real, or just another pile of religious bs?

Two very simple, and primal questions. I didn't want to be religious. I'd previously been explained that I would not fit in the world of religious people. I hated suits, and I'm not really all that nice a guy.
What stunned me is that God responded to me. He showed me something that I'd never perceived before then.
It was that very encounter that caused me to respond- I want to know that Jesus.
So, I began to learn. It took time, and I had my ups and downs. But I kept moving forward and learning.

You don't have to figure it out for yourself.
YHVH himself and Jesus Christ will make themselves known as knowable to you. Simply for the asking.
We read- whosoever shall call on the Lord shall be saved.
According to Catholic theologians, faith does not contradict reason, faith is superior to reason: so that while with reason man meets God as the creator of nature, it is by faith that man ascends to the God of supernature.
Then why not take the time to learn to follow Jesus?
It's a curious thing about this.

In the Law we read,

You shall love YHVH your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your MIND.
Jesus reiterated that when asked what the two great commandments were in Matthew 22.

I have a book here, titled- Love God with all your mind. The author is JP Moreland.
It's older (1997), so I'd say you should be able to get it for a lower price than when it was brand new.

Love your God with all your mind book buy https://g.co/kgs/wsqQA9
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Actually, you have to keep the teachings of Jesus and his response will corroborate their reality.

Jesus followers have been learning to do this for millennia and it's worked quite famously.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

so, do what Jesus said and then they will come and make their home with you.

Having been living with my wife for the past 32+ years has made it utterly impossible to mistake her reality.
In like manner, living with Jesus and God in my life for the past 45+ years has made it utterly impossible to mistake their reality.
Been there done that. Nothing.
When you look through Jesus coloured glasses you'll see him everywhere.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Been there done that. Nothing.
When you look through Jesus coloured glasses you'll see him everywhere.
Which Jesus did you try to engage?
Paul warns us about false Jesus's and false gospels in Galatians 1.

Gal 1:8-9 WEB 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any “good news” other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed. 9 As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any “good news” other than that which you received, let him be cursed.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
I would say knowing that the "creation" couldn't self create its self from nothing....there is the necessity for a being that always existed who is the creator God.
How do we know there was ever "nothing"?
This is where number 1 comes into play.... rational faculty of man can easily determine the need for a God.
What need? Why do we need a God?
Reading the Bible explains partially how God did it.....the Koran is a false book that presents a false God and can't be trusted.
How do you know it is the Koran that is false? Maybe it is the Bible that is false.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Which Jesus did you try to engage?
Paul warns us about false Jesus's and false gospels in Galatians 1.

Gal 1:8-9 WEB 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any “good news” other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed. 9 As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any “good news” other than that which you received, let him be cursed.
The Jesus that does my gardening.
Paul warned about buying snake oil from anyone but him.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
a. In ultimate summation, existence is of two kinds:
b. Permanent self-existent existence i.e. God, and all transient existence which is the creation of God.

In ultimate summation, you and I are transient, so we implicate the existence of the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the unverse and everything transient.
No.
That we are transient implies nothing with regard to the possibility of a permanent self-existent creator.
 

Oseas

Member
"The bible is God's Word." -SteveB

How would you prove "The bible is God's Word"?
The Word is GOD. Great mystery.
 

yrger

Member
No.
That we are transient implies nothing with regard to the possibility of a permanent self-existent creator.

The word is implicates, not implies.

We transient entities come from our parents and our parents come from their parents, and on and on and on . . . until finally we come to the permanent self-existent entity that is God, the source of all transient entities and things.
 

Oseas

Member
There are three ways man comes to know the existence of God:

1. By man's intelligence and his rational faculty and his reasoning process.
2. By reading the Bible for Christians and Orthodox Jews, and the Koran for Muslims.
3. By meditation.

I know God exists by the No. 1 way.

Very briefly:
a. Man is a transient entity i.e. he is here today and then after some years of life like as much as 90 years plus, he dies.
b. The transient existence of man inevitably implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
d. Therefore God exists.
The transient existence of man is not of GOD, but of the Devil, also called Satan, the new name of him now, in this apocaliptic time, is red Dragon.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
The word is implicates, not implies.

We transient entities come from our parents and our parents come from their parents, and on and on and on . . . until finally we come to the permanent self-existent entity that is God, the source of all transient entities and things.
Whether implicates or implies makes no real difference.
We can still not infer the possibility of a permanent self-existent creator from our existence as transient entities.
 

yrger

Member
How do we know there was ever "nothing"?

. . . . .

Hi Tiburon, you ask, "How do we know there was ever "nothing"?"

Do you mean that there was nothingness, then we you and I and all humans and things . . . just come into existence, from nothingness?

That is an absurd thought, because if nothingness is the default status of reality, then we would not be here at all - no matter that you postulate billions and billions and billions ... of years have lapsed.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Hi Tiburon, you ask, "How do we know there was ever "nothing"?"

Do you mean that there was nothingness, then we you and I and all humans and things . . . just come into existence, from nothingness?

That is an absurd thought, because if nothingness is the default status of reality, then we would not be here at all - no matter that you postulate billions and billions and billions ... of years have lapsed.
No, I'm saying how do we know there was ever a "beginning". How do we know there hasn't always been something.
 

yrger

Member
The transient existence of man is not of GOD, but of the Devil, also called Satan, the new name of him now, in this apocaliptic time, is red Dragon.

yrger said:


There are three ways man comes to know the existence of God:

1. By man's intelligence and his rational faculty and his reasoning process.
2. By reading the Bible for Christians and Orthodox Jews, and the Koran for Muslims.
3. By meditation.

I know God exists by the No. 1 way.

Very briefly:
a. Man is a transient entity i.e. he is here today and then after some years of life like as much as 90 years plus, he dies.
b. The transient existence of man inevitably implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient. (Add here, c. we are the evidence of God's existence.)

d. Therefore God exists.
The transient existence of man is not of GOD, but of the Devil, also called Satan, the new name of him now, in this apocaliptic time, is red Dragon.

------------------

Sorry, but I am not into the Bible, but into God's existence by way of our intelligence and rational faculty and reasoning process.
 

Oseas

Member
The transient existence of man is not of GOD, but of the Devil, also called Satan, the new name of him now, in this apocaliptic time, is red Dragon.

------------------

Sorry, but I am not into the Bible, but into God's existence by way of our intelligence and rational faculty and reasoning process.
You have just created a tiny "God", a "God" your size, who is good for nothing, a short-lived "God" who soon dies, dies in the husk and turns to dust.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The Jesus that does my gardening.
Paul warned about buying snake oil from anyone but him.
Isn't it nice to know that you and you alone are responsible for your own eternal destiny.

You get to decide whether you want to live in a paradise designed explicitly for your extensive happiness.

Or, in a place where no thought was given for you.
 
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