How to know that God exists.

[Caroljeen]

I think it might be more accurate to say that organisms wouldn't get started in the first place if if they didn't have a drive to survive.

what drives an amoeba to replicate itself?I googled it and all I could find was an explanation how it reproduces but not the reason it starts reproducing in the first place.

 

[Caroljeen]

I don't have an argument, and I am not obligated to have an argument.

I simply don't know.

but you know it is not God?

 

[Eightcrackers]

but you know it is not God?

NO.

I believe it wasn't, but I don't know it, or claim to know it.

 

[Manfred]

I think it might be more accurate to say that organisms wouldn't get started in the first place if if they didn't have a drive to survive.

Started from what remains my question.
If there is a drive to survive, then something has to be in existence already.
The law of entropy contradicts a notion of continuous improvement based on a drive for survival.

 

[CrowCross]

Nowhere can I find an explanation of Buttes that mention a global flood.

This took me 20 seconds to find.

Red Butte: Remnant of the Flood.

 

[Whatsisface]

what drives an amoeba to replicate itself?I googled it and all I could find was an explanation how it reproduces but not the reason it starts reproducing in the first place.

I don't think amoeba has drives in the way you and I would experience them, they don't have brains so aren't aware. I would say they operate on a purely chemical level.

 

[Whatsisface]

Started from what remains my question.
If there is a drive to survive, then something has to be in existence already.
The law of entropy contradicts a notion of continuous improvement based on a drive for survival.

I really don't see why this contradicts favourable mutations being selected for by natural selection.

 

[Whatsisface]

This took me 20 seconds to find.

Red Butte: Remnant of the Flood.

Did you read it? Here's a clip … A global Flood may provide the framework for a more credible depositional model.

 

[Temujin]

Organisms do not go extinct because of a lack of drive to survive. Can you give an example of biological organisms that stopped reproducing and thus became extinct.
Can you give an example of something? I may be unaware of any such cases that have been established?

Why would we know of them? They would be extinct billions of years ago.

 

[Whatsisface]

but you know it is not God?

Not knowing it's not God isn't evidence it was God.

 

[Temujin]

What natural cause stimulates this drive? hormones?

Genes. Hard wired behaviours.

 

[CrowCross]

Did you read it? Here's a clip … A global Flood may provide the framework for a more credible depositional model.

So????

Are you saying a global flood could not?

Point is, it took me 20 seconds to find that article....and article containing material you say didn't exist.
.....Pull your pants up.

 

[Whatsisface]

So????

Are you saying a global flood could not?

Point is, it took me 20 seconds to find that article....and article containing material you say didn't exist.
.....Pull your pants up.

I didn't say anything about this sort of material not existing. You need to think a little less superficially.

The article certainly doesn't say a global flood is the explanation for Buttes.

Who am I going to believe? Creationists who say there was a flood or the experts who say there wasn't

 

[CrowCross]

I didn't say anything about this sort of material not existing. You need to think a little less superficially.

The article certainly doesn't say a global flood is the explanation for Buttes.

Who am I going to believe? Creationists who say there was a flood or the experts who say there wasn't

That was simply one of many...an article that supported my position which was found in 20 seconds. If I spent an hour I could produce many more articles.

If I thought you really wanted to pull yourself out of ignorance and learn about what the food of Noah could do...I would spend more time on the subject with you. But, you'd rather remain in ignorance.

 

[Gus Bovona]

Ok.
How many tries you want?

It is clear that with a sufficient number of tries, even something that is one out of a million - a billion - a trillion - etc. - will occur.

We have now introduced repeatability into the equation.

Let's say you add a bunch of amino acids into a system that developed by chance to sustain life.

there is an element of chance, but there is more, too. Chemistry is not chance.

An you have entropy doing its thing and these AA's are degrading etc.
You say through adding more AA's into the mix, and repeating that over and over for billions of years, you will have some life form evolve because at some point the degraded AA's will not degrade quick enough and you will get 10 improvement's in a row before degradation that will allow life to be formed.

 

[Whatsisface]

That was simply one of many...an article that supported my position which was found in 20 seconds. If I spent an hour I could produce many more articles.

But it hardly supports your position.

If I thought you really wanted to pull yourself out of ignorance and learn about what the food of Noah could do...I would spend more time on the subject with you. But, you'd rather remain in ignorance.

Cheaply said and it applies to you too.

Should I ignore the experts in the field?

 

[SteveB]

No it's experience. Inexperience would be if I never even tried.

Actually, quitting includes inexperience.
Jesus said

If you continue in my teachings, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

So, according to your own words, you quit. Therefore you didn't learn the truth and you didn't experience Jesus.

If two people drop a stone into a well and one hears a splash and another doesn't, that is their experience.
They are both experiences.

And you're telling me that you not hearing the splash is proof that there was no rock that was dropped into the well.

Seems like you have a problem with inexperience.

We both sought God. You say you got a response I say I didn't. Those are our experiences.

And yet you're claiming that your inexperience is proof that I can't have been experiencing Jesus and God for the past 45 years.

My experience is a lack of connecting with Jesus.

Which is inexperience.
You either have or havenot experienced Jesus and God.

If you did not experience him, then your experience is inexperience.

No it's about an argumentum ad populum.

Then I'd say that you have a serious problem.
Because Jesus said,
Depart from me, I never knew you....

I.e., it's about the relationship between us, as individuals and Jesus and God.

And in case you missed it, relationships are not arguments. They're relationships.

So what?
Experiencing what you expect to experience doesn't prove Jesus.

So, if you don't want to know him, then you won't ever meet him, and that's proof he's not really who he says he is?
Sounds like you're giving yourself an excuse to avoid responsibility for yourself.

Your assumption here is that I was expecting to experience God.
I had observed people who were interacting with whom they'd claimed was God.
As I'd never actually seen that before, and I'd spent years talking with people about God, as defined by their respective beliefs and cultures, I decided that I wanted to resolve this issue once and for all.

I had no idea what to expect. Looking back, as a matter of hindsight, I suppose my thinking was along the lines of:

If he's real, and actually wants to know me (as they all claimed), then my asking questions will garner a response from him.

If he doesn't want to know me, or is not real, then there will be no response.

As it was a simple question, I didn't have anything to lose by asking it.

So... I asked.
It was a simple one.

Are you for real?
Is this Jesus stuff I'm hearing about for real, or just another pile of religious bs?

So, if you actually want to justify your lack of knowledge and awareness of him, something that you need to consider is that my presupposition was that christianity was a pile of religious bs. Otherwise I never would have included that in my question.

I grew up with religious bs. I had no interest whatsoever in more BS. I'd listened to the people who talked to me about various religious beliefs. I wasn't looking to get religion or become religious.

It's my definitive experience with Jesus himself that has convinced me that Jesus is real, and the bible is true.
Before that, I had no idea. Before Jesus, christianity was just another pile of religious bs.

I had an experience of not meeting him. You cannot say from that, that I didn't do what Jesus said.

Actually, Jesus said that.

If anyone does not pick up his cross and deny himself, he cannot be my follower.

He further stated

If anyone wants to be my follower, let him deny himself daily, pick up his cross and follow me.

It's pretty clear that in order to follow Jesus, we must deny ourselves, pick up our cross (instrument of death) and follow Jesus.

This entails reading the bible, engaging him in prayer, applying the bible to our lives and learning to be like Jesus.

In order to do what Jesus said, these things are not an option.

I don't think that is a no true Scotsman fallacy.
I think it's just a dismissal of your claim.

That's ok. I wasn't looking for your agreement.
You're the one who is having a problem with whether or not you have excluded yourself from knowing God and Jesus.

This is the entire reason why we're having this conversation.

To open up the door for you to engage him on his terms.

Have you had a doctor sign an affidavit to that effect?
People use the term "Miracle" all to readily.

I asked one of them to.
They said that your unbelief is your problem. Both they and I know the truth and if you're bothered with it, then you should simply recognize that your opinions about it are irrelevant to the point.

Considering that I've spent several years inviting atheists to come visit me, and I'd then take them to visit my doctors and they could ask those doctors for themselves, and the only thing I got in return was a bunch of mocking, and verbal abuse, I'd say that your fellow atheists have mocked themselves into a state of deliberate and willful ignorance... something we call- stupidity.

And?

It's common sense 101 in the part of humanity I'm from.

No, I never actually met Jesus. If there is a God then I am actually interested in knowing God.

Then turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.

We read in Romans 10, whosoever shall call on his name shall be saved.

We further read,

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness and with the mouth confession is made, resulting in salvation.

"How do you think this is going to go?"
I think it's going to go as usual. You'll keep claiming that I'm not interested in knowing God and that I haven't done what Jesus said.

Actually, the entire point of this conversation has been about you turning to YHVH from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus.

So, if you actually want to know him, believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.

So is following Allah or Vishnu or Buddha.
The result comes from approaching life from a particular viewpoint.

And?
How have those worked out for you?
Considering that you have previously professed to being an atheist, I'm thinking that you have either tried to, but failed, or are just throwing dust in the air to try and hide behind your own bias.

Don't use things that you haven't actually done before. It's a bad practice.

So the Bible got there first.

I had several years of conversations with people of other beliefs.
I came to the realization that I wasn't interested in having a set of rules or philosophical ideas to guide me through the world.

So, actually, Jesus demonstrated himself to me and he got there, when/after all the others were incapable of being what I needed.

No, I didn't come to Jesus just looking for an emotional experience.

Good.

I did expect some sign that I had been accepted into the flock.
I suppose you are going to tell me I was wrong for expecting anything.

It's a simple matter of what the bible says about it.

More excuses.

And yet you're still sending yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish, separated from God for all eternity.
Whose the one with excuses?

No, it seems you are using the 1828 Webster's Dictionary definition of truth.

Considering that it's the first dictionary that has defined truth, which I've found online to check.

Robert Cawdrey's is described, but I'm not finding an online searchable version.
I'm not finding an online searchable version of Samuel Johnson's either.

And as such Noah Webster's dictionary is the earliest version I've been able to verify and search.

And as his definition uses the bible to describe truth, I'm thinking that his is the most accurate.

I will say that I find it curious that Webster's dictionary has been the most popular dictionary in the English language for centuries.

Cawdrey, Johnson, and others have either been absorbed or vanished into history.

Care to explain it then?

Turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:9-13 WEB 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[SteveB]

So we are in the same boat.

Are you sure about this?
You keep telling me that you don't know.
My awareness with the One who does know places me in a different boat than you.

Especially because he says--

Psa 111:10 WEB The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom. All those who do his work have a good understanding. His praise endures forever!

What is the basis for your understanding?
Your lack of experience with Jesus?

You see the same reality you just frame it differently based upon your beliefs.

?
Indeed!
You look at the world materially.
I see beyond the material, and have been given a perspective of the eternal.

As Paul describes in 2 Corinthians 4.
2Co 4:18 WEB while we don’t look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

There is a much more comprehensive perspective that is available to the followers of Jesus.

I'm not talking about "Biblical" righteousness.

Pity.
It's better than all the wealth and power and prestige of the universe.
I encourage you to take the time to learn just how valuable it actually is.

I don't need followers of Jesus to be anything.

I would expect to see some difference based upon the claims they make. It seems though that they are no better or worse than anyone else.

In some cases they are.
In many cases they're becoming more and more like Jesus each and every day.
As we read in 2 Corinthians 3

2Co 3:18 WEB But we all, with unveiled face seeing the glory of the Lord as in a mirror, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit.

"YHVH himself has stated- the people who say there is no God is a fool."
No, it was supposedly David who said that in Psalm14.

Curious how that works.
We read elsewhere that the scriptures are God-breathed.
Meaning that while men who've dedicated their lives to God, did indeed write it, God inspired them with eternal truths.

I don't know. It seems that way from your posts. You definitely don't seem to have a good opinion of humanity as a whole.

And?
Jesus did say,

If you then, being evil......
Watching the human race and being engaged with them in daily interactions, I'm not particularly concerned about that.

My interest is in making sure that I learn how to view, and treat them as God does.

Which was what exactly? A nice warm fuzzy feeling? A booming voice from on high?

Exactly as described in the bible.

Jesus said,

Joh 3:16-17 WEB 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.


No booming voices.

 

[Tiburon]

Are you sure about this?
You keep telling me that you don't know.
My awareness with the One who does know places me in a different boat than you.

Belief is not the same as knowledge.

?
Indeed!
You look at the world materially.
I see beyond the material, and have been given a perspective of the eternal.

As Paul describes in 2 Corinthians 4.
2Co 4:18 WEB while we don’t look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

There is a much more comprehensive perspective that is available to the followers of Jesus.

No you don't see beyond the material. You see the same as what everyone else sees.

Pity.
It's better than all the wealth and power and prestige of the universe.
I encourage you to take the time to learn just how valuable it actually is.

It has exactly zero value

Curious how that works.
We read elsewhere that the scriptures are God-breathed.
Meaning that while men who've dedicated their lives to God, did indeed write it, God inspired them with eternal truths.

Wow, a claim that something you believe in is special. How incredible. Who would ever expect people to make such a claim?
What counted as scripture? Did those who said that have the same texts in mind as you?

And?
Jesus did say,

If you then, being evil......
Watching the human race and being engaged with them in daily interactions, I'm not particularly concerned about that.
My interest is in making sure that I learn how to view, and treat them as God does.

So you'd like to drown everyone in a worldwide flood? Exactly how do you think God treats everyone?

Exactly as described in the bible.

That tells me nothing. the Bible is a big book with many different perspectives expressed. You don't seem to be able to nail it down.

 

[Tiburon]

Actually, quitting includes inexperience.
Jesus said

If you continue in my teachings, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

So, according to your own words, you quit. Therefore you didn't learn the truth and you didn't experience Jesus.

I do continue in Christ teachings. I love my neighbour as myself. Or at least I try to.
I didn't experience what you experienced.

And you're telling me that you not hearing the splash is proof that there was no rock that was dropped into the well.

Seems like you have a problem with inexperience.

So you keep saying.

And yet you're claiming that your inexperience is proof that I can't have been experiencing Jesus and God for the past 45 years.

I'm sure you experienced something.

Which is inexperience.
You either have or havenot experienced Jesus and God.

If you did not experience him, then your experience is inexperience.

I'm talking about the experience of reaching out to God.
It is you that claims it's inexperience because it was unsuccessful.

Then I'd say that you have a serious problem.
Because Jesus said,
Depart from me, I never knew you....

I.e., it's about the relationship between us, as individuals and Jesus and God.

And in case you missed it, relationships are not arguments. They're relationships.

Why should I care what Jesus allegedly said?

So, if you don't want to know him, then you won't ever meet him, and that's proof he's not really who he says he is?
Sounds like you're giving yourself an excuse to avoid responsibility for yourself.

All I have is responsibility for myself.
You are making excuses for why, what the Bible says, didn't happen.

Your assumption here is that I was expecting to experience God.
I had observed people who were interacting with whom they'd claimed was God.
As I'd never actually seen that before, and I'd spent years talking with people about God, as defined by their respective beliefs and cultures, I decided that I wanted to resolve this issue once and for all.

I had no idea what to expect. Looking back, as a matter of hindsight, I suppose my thinking was along the lines of:

If he's real, and actually wants to know me (as they all claimed), then my asking questions will garner a response from him.

If he doesn't want to know me, or is not real, then there will be no response.

As it was a simple question, I didn't have anything to lose by asking it.

So... I asked.
It was a simple one.

Are you for real?
Is this Jesus stuff I'm hearing about for real, or just another pile of religious bs?

So, if you actually want to justify your lack of knowledge and awareness of him, something that you need to consider is that my presupposition was that christianity was a pile of religious bs. Otherwise I never would have included that in my question.
I grew up with religious bs. I had no interest whatsoever in more BS. I'd listened to the people who talked to me about various religious beliefs. I wasn't looking to get religion or become religious.

It's my definitive experience with Jesus himself that has convinced me that Jesus is real, and the bible is true.
Before that, I had no idea. Before Jesus, christianity was just another pile of religious bs.

It is you that wants to justify my lack of knowledge by putting my failure to meet God on me.
You cannot accept that the claims in the Bible could be wrong.

Actually, Jesus said that.
If anyone does not pick up his cross and deny himself, he cannot be my follower.
He further stated
If anyone wants to be my follower, let him deny himself daily, pick up his cross and follow me.
It's pretty clear that in order to follow Jesus, we must deny ourselves, pick up our cross (instrument of death) and follow Jesus.
This entails reading the bible, engaging him in prayer, applying the bible to our lives and learning to be like Jesus.
In order to do what Jesus said, these things are not an option.

And yet you didn't do any of these things before God answered your hail.
You keep telling us that we all have to do these things in order to know that Jesus is real but you apparently didn't.

I asked one of them to.
They said that your unbelief is your problem. Both they and I know the truth and if you're bothered with it, then you should simply recognize that your opinions about it are irrelevant to the point.

Really? Seems like they didn't want to put their John Hancock on something they didn't really believe.

Considering that I've spent several years inviting atheists to come visit me, and I'd then take them to visit my doctors and they could ask those doctors for themselves, and the only thing I got in return was a bunch of mocking, and verbal abuse, I'd say that your fellow atheists have mocked themselves into a state of deliberate and willful ignorance... something we call- stupidity.

What do you think that would prove?

It's common sense 101 in the part of humanity I'm from.

"Common sense" is just you expecting that everyone else would do the same as you.
"Common sense" isn't that common and is often not sense.

Then turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.
We read in Romans 10, whosoever shall call on his name shall be saved.
We further read,
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness and with the mouth confession is made, resulting in salvation.

Why would I place my trust in something I don't believe in?
Where does it say we must believe "that God raised him from the dead"?

And?
How have those worked out for you?
Considering that you have previously professed to being an atheist, I'm thinking that you have either tried to, but failed, or are just throwing dust in the air to try and hide behind your own bias.

Don't use things that you haven't actually done before. It's a bad practice.

"Don't use things that you haven't actually done before." In that case none of us would ever do anything.

I had several years of conversations with people of other beliefs.
I came to the realization that I wasn't interested in having a set of rules or philosophical ideas to guide me through the world.

Yet that's what you ended up with.

Considering that it's the first dictionary that has defined truth, which I've found online to check.

The first one I find is the Oxford Languages dictionary.
I think I'd have to dig a fair way to find the one you are referencing.

Turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.

I'll come to YHVH when I see reason to believe he is anything more than a middle eastern bronze age God.