How to know that God exists.

SteveB

Well-known member
I'd suggest that all believers have created their own ideas of God.
That would indeed make sense to you. You are after all looking for excuses to avoid responsibility for yourself. This is part of what God's hardening your heart looks like..... you keep giving excuses (which you view as valid reasons).

Psychotic? No. Mistaken? Yes.
Is eternity in the lake of fire, living in utter darkness and despair worth it? Why be mistaken when you can actually know?
We read in the New Testament letter of 1 John --- these things are written that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of Jesus Christ.

No, you engaged him on your terms.
All I did was ask him. He's the one who decided to answer me and did so exactly as he said he would.
So, are you sure that it was on my terms?


Do they know me? Sounds like they don't want to put there name to something that might have them held up to ridicule.
Perhaps. But, since none of those whom I'd invited took me up on my offer, I'd say that the people who are afraid of ridicule are you, and the other atheists who decided that mocking me was a better idea than to make the trip and find out firsthand, for themselves.
Nice excuse though. It just adds to the reason why I find atheism the belief of cowards.

I.e., this too is part of what God's hardening your heart looks like.... you keep demonstrating by your words and actions you don't want to know the truth, and one day, you'll be past all hope of salvation.... not because God hasn't reasoned with you. But because you don't actually want to know.


Doesn't say much for the strength of their conviction.

Remember.... you're the one who refuses the invitation to engage in discussion about my metastatic melanoma cancer diagnosis with the medical doctors who were my caregivers during my illness treatment and since.

So, don't talk to me about lacking the courage of their convictions .
It only further adds to my view that atheists really are the ones who lack the courage of their convictions.

Another example of what God's hardening your heart looks like.... You affirm your desire to not know the truth, So, he acknowledges your preference to not know him, and affirms/strengthens/hardens you.
An idea that comes to mind here is that of the case-hardening process of metals used in car motors.

Are you familiar with the metal hardening process?

This is similar to what you're doing to yourself, with respect to God.

All you're doing is excluding yourself from experiencing the forgiveness, and cleansing of your sin, and the restoration of a relationship with God.

Why would me coming there and asking the question in person provide me with anything more than their written testimony?
That's a you thing.

When you question my integrity regarding the experience I've had with my cancer, and then mock the doctors who've repeatedly stated that I am a miracle, it places you in a really bad light, and makes you appear as someone who is too afraid to learn the truth. So, I'm thinking that giving you the opportunity to make a trip, and talk about it with them, first hand, and meet with me to discuss it firsthand, it'll demonstrate that I'm telling the truth about it and about Jesus.

So, if you don't actually have the courage of your own convictions, then you should stop talking and just recognize that you're full of feces and don't have a leg to stand on.

It's not a very flattering position to put yourself in, by your own choosing.
Apart from knowing you didn't write it yourself.
Read above.
Because people don't generally doubt that they aren't doing what every other sensible person would do.
Irritating, isn't it!
In my world, I'm thinking that it has to go beyond what other "self-perceived-sensible" people are doing. Especially in light of the statements made--- there is a way that makes sense to a man, but the end result is death.


Just like the majority of people consider themselves better than average drivers.
And yet there are many people who are dangerous drivers, as well as excellent drivers.

Can you take a course in "common sense"?
Yep!
Just not in an educational institution.
Other terms we've used to describe common sense is- the school of hard knocks, street smarts, and some others.

Another way to say it is to learn from our mistakes.



I didn't think Jesus had said it. I would have remembered that.
Actually, YHVH said it. Paul just quoted it.
What?
You said "Don't use things that you haven't actually done before. It's a bad practice."
Following that advice none of us would ever do anything.
You told me something that was quite clear you'd never done before. So, instead of telling me something you've never actually tried before--- do it first, work through the issues inherently associated with it, and then we can discuss it.


Imaginary friends are like that.
It's a good thing I don't have any imaginary friends.
Seems like you might though.
You keep telling me that you never actually met Jesus, yet you continue arguing that you can't, and shouldn't have to know him.

That's what the Bible says so it doesn't have to back up it's claims.
I could believe that there is a God that is the creator of the cosmos.
I cannot believe that same God is behind the Bible.
Ah. Well, sounds like your imaginary friend is telling you what you're allowed to think.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So if you don't want to go to God's party you should burn in hell?
It's not a "you should." It's a "you're deliberately choosing..."
This is why we spend time explaining this, so you'll understand.
To everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus, they are just words.
Yep.
Further demonstrating that you're hardening your heart to God, and his affirming your decision to spend your eternity in the lake of fire.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Indeed they are.
You said that you try to love your neighbour as your self.

According to Romans 7, the law is spiritual and we are carnal, sold into slavery by our sin. Jesus also said that he who sins is a slave of sin.

All it takes is one violation of the law to sin.
Thankfully, God has explicitly stated that if we agree with him about our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So, not does he forgive our sin, he cleanses our sin.
He has a vested interest in keeping a short account with us because he knows what our sin does to us.
He actually wants to spend time with us.

What does that have to do with me trying to love my neighbour as my self?

Curious.
He said he's the one knocking, and we just need to be listening. Revelation 3:20.

Are you listening?

[Rev 3:20 NKJV] 20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
And yet Mathew 7:7 says “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
So which is it?
Are we both knocking and expecting the other to answer?

Curious.... just who do you think would have a greater understanding and perspective of reality.... finite human beings who are alive for maybe 100 years, and can't accurately predict 1 second into the future, or the eternal God, who has infinite understanding and perspective of everything, from eternity past to eternity future, who knows what you're thinking before you do, and can describe your entire life before the foundation of the world was laid?
His perspective has greater understanding, and awareness than anything humans have, or can obtain.

It is unfortunate then that we only have the finite, human, perspective of reality.

You should be asking why I do.
There's actually a good set of reasons why I do so.
I have asked. You have yet to give any good reasons.

Yep. Got that already.

That finite, limited human experience that has no basis beyond their inexperience?
That finite, limited, human experience is all we have.

Ah!
So you're a gambler!
So, I find myself wondering why you would be so ready to take so risky a chance with your life. This isn't merely your income. It's your eternity.
No.
When you can show me proof of a possible Eternity then I'll re-evaluate the risk. Until then I see no reason to be concerned.

Are you? Because so far, you're just telling me that he hasn't done for you what he said he would and has been doing for the rest of humanity down throughout the ages.
That's why I take responsibility for myself.

Ah yes.... "because I'm more special than everyone else, I didn't get what I wanted, I'm not required to obey the truth in order to learn the truth. It's just supposed to appear like magic"

Seems like you have a problem for which there will be no excuses.
I did what the Bible said. I did not get any response.
According to you, it is just supposed to appear like magic.
You just ask the question and bada bing bada boom, you get an answer.

Ignoring everything because there's just too much information will not be able to justify yourself before God.
How about ignoring claims because there's no substantial evidence?
If God can't see that I've come to my non-acceptance based upon an honest assessment of the evidence. Then your God isn't a very good God.

He's given everyone the same thing.
He's explicitly stated that he has chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save everyone who believes in Jesus.
That's what Paul said when he was trying to peddle his beliefs. If you can prove it came from God you'll be getting somewhere.

It's your eternity.
Show me evidence of this "eternity"?

It's yet to happen.
The millennium is the 2nd to the next phase of human existence.
I thought you claimed to have met Jesus? I thought you said millions of people over the millennia have met Jesus?
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
That would indeed make sense to you. You are after all looking for excuses to avoid responsibility for yourself. This is part of what God's hardening your heart looks like..... you keep giving excuses (which you view as valid reasons).
How am I avoiding responsibility for myself? Who am I giving that responsibility to?

Is eternity in the lake of fire, living in utter darkness and despair worth it? Why be mistaken when you can actually know?
We read in the New Testament letter of 1 John --- these things are written that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of Jesus Christ.
These things are written that you may know that you have eternal life. Claims aren't evidence.

All I did was ask him. He's the one who decided to answer me and did so exactly as he said he would.
So, are you sure that it was on my terms?
"All I did was ask him." That's your terms. You didn't read the Bible and do what it said. You said "Hey God show me that you aren't BS?"

It just adds to the reason why I find atheism the belief of cowards.
Really. So you don't think that a religion that tries to deny the sting of death with a promise of eternal life isn't the belief of cowards?

Remember.... you're the one who refuses the invitation to engage in discussion about my metastatic melanoma cancer diagnosis with the medical doctors who were my caregivers during my illness treatment and since.

So, don't talk to me about lacking the courage of their convictions .
It only further adds to my view that atheists really are the ones who lack the courage of their convictions.

When you question my integrity regarding the experience I've had with my cancer, and then mock the doctors who've repeatedly stated that I am a miracle, it places you in a really bad light, and makes you appear as someone who is too afraid to learn the truth. So, I'm thinking that giving you the opportunity to make a trip, and talk about it with them, first hand, and meet with me to discuss it firsthand, it'll demonstrate that I'm telling the truth about it and about Jesus.

So, if you don't actually have the courage of your own convictions, then you should stop talking and just recognize that you're full of feces and don't have a leg to stand on.

It's not a very flattering position to put yourself in, by your own choosing.
As enjoyable as visiting you and your wife might be.
It wouldn't prove anything.

Actually, YHVH said it. Paul just quoted it.
So Paul said it.

It's a good thing I don't have any imaginary friends.
You keep telling me that you never actually met Jesus, yet you continue arguing that you can't, and shouldn't have to know him.
Ah. Well, sounds like your imaginary friend is telling you what you're allowed to think.
You just don't realise you have an imaginary friend.
My mental wiring and previous experience restrict what I am allowed to think.
I can't just decide to believe something.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
It's not a "you should." It's a "you're deliberately choosing..."
This is why we spend time explaining this, so you'll understand.
God is the one creating the options.
Doesn't seem like a choice originating from a Loving God.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What does that have to do with me trying to love my neighbour as my self?
Everything.
Do you think it's going to earn you a seat in heaven when you die?

And yet Mathew 7:7 says “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
So which is it?
Are we both knocking and expecting the other to answer?
Ask, and it shall be given to you.
Seek and you shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened to you.
So, why would you ask, if you're not actually interested in receiving?
Why would you seek if you're not actually interested in finding?
Why would you knock if you're not actually interested in the door being opened to you?

The entire premise of each is because you actually want what you're asking, seeking, and knocking for.


It is unfortunate then that we only have the finite, human, perspective of reality.
Thankfully, YHVH has eternal perspective and is ready, willing and able to provide it to us...
If we ask, seek, and knock.

I have asked. You have yet to give any good reasons.
I posit that I have in fact been giving you copious excellent reasons. You however don't actually like what the truth is.
It's not an uncommon feeling.
Remember, Jesus was crucified because he told the truth and people didn't like it.
Jesus followers throughout history, through to today are being beaten, killed, thrown in prison,...
So, it's pretty clear that anyone who loves their sin agrees with you.
Jesus even said as much.

Joh 3:18-21 WEB 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”

Thankfully, YHVH thinks enough of you that he did the following.

Joh 3:16-17 WEB 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.


That finite, limited, human experience is all we have.
That's what makes this so profound...

YHVH has explicitly stated that he will give us his perspective.
No.
When you can show me proof of a possible Eternity then I'll re-evaluate the risk. Until then I see no reason to be concerned.
Then you're looking at this all wrong.
By not believing in Jesus, you're guaranteeing your eternal destination.
By believing in Jesus, you are guaranteed that you will enjoy eternal life.

This has absolutely nothing to do with you believing that God exists.

As Jesus' brother said...
You believe in God? The devil believe that God exists and tremble.

It's not enough to believe that God exists.
It never was.
Cain talked with God, and heard him. They interacted with each other.
The only thing Cain didn't do was to believe God.




That's why I take responsibility for myself.
If you actually took responsibility for yourself, you would have turned to YHVH
I did what the Bible said. I did not get any response.
What do you think the bible says that you're to do?
What kind of a response were you expecting to get?
I had absolutely no idea what kind of a response I'd get.
I simply asked him.
He decided the kind of a response he would give me. I learned later that his chosen response would match the biblical narrative.


According to you, it is just supposed to appear like magic.
Nope. Never said that. That you think I did say that speaks more to you and your biases than what I actually did state.

You just ask the question and bada bing bada boom, you get an answer.
Yep.
So, why do you think that He responded in the manner he did?

How about ignoring claims because there's no substantial evidence?
What do you consider substantial evidence?
I thought YHVH coming into my life and showing himself as real and knowable was pretty substantial.
Perhaps the problem here isn't that there's no "substantial evidence." But that your ideas of "substantial evidence" are based on erroneous assumptions and preconceptions and beliefs.
If God can't see that I've come to my non-acceptance based upon an honest assessment of the evidence. Then your God isn't a very good God.
Well, if you're not actually interested in knowing the truth, then that's your prerogative.
This just makes me wonder what you're so afraid of.

The question to me becomes...
What was your honest assessment of what information based on?

I had an honest assessment about my ability to do physics and math when I was in my early twenties. The simple and short answer was- there's no way in hell I would ever be able to do these.

I found myself 20 years later, and several life experiences later faced with a singular opportunity to do something I never thought I would be able to do. So, I worked through the math, and found that I actually enjoyed the extreme challenges of it. By the time I got to calculus 4, I felt like a kid in a candy store with a blank check.
My entrance into physics was based on an invitation by my astronomy professor. I laughed and responded by saying- you don't want me in a physics class. I'll blow something up.
He responded by saying, that's chemistry. We don't do that here.
So I took the class, and by midterms I decided that if I got a B, I'd go for it.
I did, and I did.
Each new course, and each new semester, I felt like I was nuts for trying. And at the end of each semester I was blown away by my success. By a certain point I got to the point where I decided that I'd keep going until I could no longer do it. I.e., the first course I got an F in would be the end.
I never got a C or D in my physics classes. I kept getting B's, or better.
So.... I'm thinking that the problem here isn't that the evidence was/is bad. Rather, the ideas that you built your assessment on were faulty.


That's what Paul said when he was trying to peddle his beliefs. If you can prove it came from God you'll be getting somewhere.
YHVH says that he proves it himself.
The problem here is that you've already decided that the means through which God has explicitly stated he'd make sure that we know him, and his power isn't good enough for you.
So, you're not actually helping yourself. With the way you're looking at it.

The evidence is solid.
God apparently isn't bothered that you don't like it. He actually describes the problem and the result of folk's dislike of it.
Jesus describes the real problem, and the consequences for choosing no.

The preaching of the gospel of Jesus is the means by which God has explicitly stated he has chosen to make himself knowable to us.

So, it's pretty clear that if you don't want to know the truth, then you'll receive the consequences for your decision.



Show me evidence of this "eternity"?
Wrong focus.
Eternity is like a train. It's coming, regardless of whether or not you believe it.
Eternity is a train that we're being invited to receive a ticket for a long ride.
The real thing we need to inquire about is YHVH himself. He's the one who is giving us the ticket to ride. Through Jesus Christ, we're not going to be left behind. Without Jesus Christ, we're guaranteed to be left behind.
I thought you claimed to have met Jesus?
Yep.
I thought you said millions of people over the millennia have met Jesus?
Yep.

Seeing Jesus face to face is what comes after we die.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
How am I avoiding responsibility for myself?
By refusing to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.
Who am I giving that responsibility to?
Yourself.
You're not designed to take the consequences for your sin. The consequences of sin are eternal.
Jesus is the only one who is designed explicitly to take the full responsibility for our sin.
So, by refusing to choose Jesus, you're taking the position that you are not designed, nor capable of handling.
These things are written that you may know that you have eternal life. Claims aren't evidence.
No. The results of doing what Jesus said are the evidence that YHVH gives us.

"All I did was ask him." That's your terms. You didn't read the Bible and do what it said. You said "Hey God show me that you aren't BS?"
Yep. Pretty much.
My request to him was:

God, are you for real? Is this Jesus stuff for real or just another pile of religious bs.

Richard Wurmbrand said something similar.

“God, I know surely that You do not exist. But if perchance You exist, which I contest, it is not my duty to believe in You; it is Your duty to reveal Yourself to me.”

So, instead of trying to figure out how to win an argument, just engage him on his terms.



Really. So you don't think that a religion that tries to deny the sting of death with a promise of eternal life isn't the belief of cowards?
Nope.
Not when YHVH said that he didn't create us to experience death.
He explicitly stated that he created us to live.
As enjoyable as visiting you and your wife might be.
It wouldn't prove anything.
That's your prerogative. I'm not the one who is having a problem with the reality of YHVH working in, and through the lives of people who believe him.
So Paul said it.
He quoted what YHVH said in the Jewish bible.
No different than my quoting your comments in response to you.
If you don't understand the dynamics of how that works, let me know and I'll see if I can explain it to you more thoroughly.
You just don't realise you have an imaginary friend.
My mental wiring and previous experience restrict what I am allowed to think.
I can't just decide to believe something.
Well then. Since you have stated that you are prevented from thinking, I'll stick with YHVH's ability to make sure that we know Him.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
God is the one creating the options.
Doesn't seem like a choice originating from a Loving God.
Let's work through this.

You stated at the end of your previous post,

My mental wiring and previous experience restrict what I am allowed to think.
I can't just decide to believe something.

You should recognize that your perspective are restricted by your own bias, your own beliefs, your own preconceptions.

So, you're looking at this from a very limited perspective.

This is exactly why we study the bible on a regular basis. It's so we can learn to better understand what YHVH is saying, and then experience him.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Everything.
Do you think it's going to earn you a seat in heaven when you die?
Do I think it will earn me a seat in a place I don't believe in? No.

Ask, and it shall be given to you.
Seek and you shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened to you.
So, why would you ask, if you're not actually interested in receiving?
Why would you seek if you're not actually interested in finding?
Why would you knock if you're not actually interested in the door being opened to you?

The entire premise of each is because you actually want what you're asking, seeking, and knocking for.
When I "knocked" I was interested in knowing and receiving. Something which you refuse to accept.

Thankfully, YHVH has eternal perspective and is ready, willing and able to provide it to us...
We only have mans word for that.

I posit that I have in fact been giving you copious excellent reasons. You however don't actually like what the truth is.
It's not an uncommon feeling.
While you may think you have. You actually haven't.

Remember, Jesus was crucified because he told the truth and people didn't like it.
Jesus was crucified because he was said to be the Messiah and thus a threat to Roman rule.


Thankfully, YHVH thinks enough of you that he did the following.

Joh 3:16-17 WEB 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
Apparently he doesn't think enough of me to provide convincing evidence.

That's what makes this so profound...

YHVH has explicitly stated that he will give us his perspective.
Again, the words of man.

Then you're looking at this all wrong.
By not believing in Jesus, you're guaranteeing your eternal destination.
By believing in Jesus, you are guaranteed that you will enjoy eternal life.
So you keep telling me.
If you had received no response from your questioning of God would you still be saying that?

This has absolutely nothing to do with you believing that God exists.
It has everything to do with me not believing that God exists.

If you actually took responsibility for yourself, you would have turned to YHVH
Then I wouldn't be responsible for myself. I would be making YHVH responsible.

What do you think the bible says that you're to do?
What kind of a response were you expecting to get?
I had absolutely no idea what kind of a response I'd get.
I simply asked him.
He decided the kind of a response he would give me. I learned later that his chosen response would match the biblical narrative.
He decided the kind of a response he would give me. That's why I'm no longer a believer.

Nope. Never said that. That you think I did say that speaks more to you and your biases than what I actually did state.
Your whole conversion story is exactly that.

Yep.
So, why do you think that He responded in the manner he did?
You tell me?

What do you consider substantial evidence?
I thought YHVH coming into my life and showing himself as real and knowable was pretty substantial.
Perhaps the problem here isn't that there's no "substantial evidence." But that your ideas of "substantial evidence" are based on erroneous assumptions and preconceptions and beliefs.
God knows what I would be convinced by.

Well, if you're not actually interested in knowing the truth, then that's your prerogative.
This just makes me wonder what you're so afraid of.

So.... I'm thinking that the problem here isn't that the evidence was/is bad. Rather, the ideas that you built your assessment on were faulty.
According to Jeremiah God said "I will give them a heart to know me"
Are you saying he didn't?

YHVH says that he proves it himself.
No, people say that.

The evidence is solid.
Then it would be unquestionable. It is not.

God apparently isn't bothered that you don't like it. He actually describes the problem and the result of folk's dislike of it.
Jesus describes the real problem, and the consequences for choosing no.
The preaching of the gospel of Jesus is the means by which God has explicitly stated he has chosen to make himself knowable to us.
So, it's pretty clear that if you don't want to know the truth, then you'll receive the consequences for your decision.
Again, man's words.
It's pretty clear that you can't show that what the Bible claims is the truth.

Seeing Jesus face to face is what comes after we die.
So you haven't met Jesus?
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
By refusing to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.
How is relying on something else taking responsibility for yourself?

Yourself.
So I'm giving responsibility to myself but I'm not taking responsibility for myself?

You're not designed to take the consequences for your sin. The consequences of sin are eternal.
Jesus is the only one who is designed explicitly to take the full responsibility for our sin.
So, by refusing to choose Jesus, you're taking the position that you are not designed, nor capable of handling.

No. The results of doing what Jesus said are the evidence that YHVH gives us.
Then the results are no evidence at all.
What reason do you have for believing that there are eternal consequences for 'sin'?

Yep. Pretty much.
My request to him was:

God, are you for real? Is this Jesus stuff for real or just another pile of religious bs.
And if you had received not response at all what would you have done?
Would you have accepted the Bible as true and kept following it's teachings?

Nope.
Not when YHVH said that he didn't create us to experience death.
He explicitly stated that he created us to live.
So why create the "Tree of Life".

That's your prerogative. I'm not the one who is having a problem with the reality of YHVH working in, and through the lives of people who believe him.
It's not hard to see what you want to see.

He quoted what YHVH said in the Jewish bible.
And turned it to support his own understanding.

Well then. Since you have stated that you are prevented from thinking, I'll stick with YHVH's ability to make sure that we know Him.
He hasn't made sure I know him yet. So I guess I'll just have to wait until that happens.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
That would indeed make sense to you. You are after all looking for excuses to avoid responsibility for yourself. This is part of what God's hardening your heart looks like..... you keep giving excuses (which you view as valid reasons).
I really don't think you can see how silly this is. Why would anyone avoid responsibility for themselves about something they really don't think is there? In any case, here we are giving you every opportunity to explain how you know God is real and you never take it. You will now dodge and say you have, where you could so easily say here again, if you were sincere and wanted your message to come across. Saying, do what Jesus said is not very helpful until you fully explain what exactly that was and what you doing it showed you. That you never do this all important last step just tells everyone you don't have a justified reason to believe.
Is eternity in the lake of fire, living in utter darkness and despair worth it? Why be mistaken when you can actually know?
How, exactly, do you know?
We read in the New Testament letter of 1 John --- these things are written that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of Jesus Christ.
How do you know these words are true?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Do I think it will earn me a seat in a place I don't believe in? No.
And yet you continue to make declarative statements as though you actually know what you're talking about.
Here's an article about this issue.


What does spiritual blindness look like?


When I "knocked" I was interested in knowing and receiving. Something which you refuse to accept.
I'm not the one who is having a problem here. You keep telling me that you never actually met Jesus. Jesus said that he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.

So, if you actually never met him, then you never actually came to Jesus.

So, I'm not having a problem with your claim at all. You however keep telling me that Jesus lied, or doesn't exist.
As I and hundreds of millions of people have actually met Jesus, and found that he does in fact do exactly what he says he will, I'd say that you are lying to yourself.



We only have mans word for that.
No, actually. We have God's Word for it. You simply don't want to know the truth. So you keep telling me that you don't believe what God said, and then apparently believe that as long as you don't believe it's really the Word of God, you're not going to be culpable for what you hear.
You are culpable. We're all culpable for what we hear. Regardless of whether or not we believe it. Failure to engage him on his terms will result in you experiencing the consequences for choosing to ignore him.

While you may think you have. You actually haven't.
Your belief. It still doesn't change the fact.
It's becoming increasingly clear to me that you and others here have somehow gotten the idea that there's an argument that can be made which will convince you, by forceful consent to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus.
It's like you think that we're going to arm wrestle you into submission to the bible and the gospel of Jesus.

It's never been or that way, nor ever will be.

You either want to know the truth or you don't.
If you don't, then you will perish, and after it's too late to do anything about it, you'll find out the hard way that you screwed yourself.

It's worth your time to learn the truth. Doing so will save you an eternity of misery.

Jesus was crucified because he was said to be the Messiah and thus a threat to Roman rule.
Yep. The religious and political leaders were terrified of the implications of their Messiah coming, and taking on sin, but not changing their political status.


Apparently he doesn't think enough of me to provide convincing evidence.
I'm thinking that you have an erroneous idea of the evidence he has chosen to give.
This tells me that you have preconceptions and biases that are preventing you from experiencing him.
Lose them. They're only hurting you.
Again, the words of man.
Evidence that you are filled with bias, and preconceptions. Lose them.
They're hurting you.
So you keep telling me.
If you had received no response from your questioning of God would you still be saying that?
Considering the lifestyle I was living in 1977, I'd likely be long dead, and nothing but a cadaver, or even dust by now.
So, no.
It has everything to do with me not believing that God exists.
And so stuck on your preconceptions and biases, that you're preventing yourself from knowing him.

Check out this article.

What does spiritual blindness look like?

Then I wouldn't be responsible for myself. I would be making YHVH responsible.
And yet you're still excluding yourself by giving excuses.
YHVH is responsible for his part. We are individually responsible for our respective individual parts.




He decided the kind of a response he would give me. That's why I'm no longer a believer.
Since you have said you never actually met Jesus in the first place, you may have been a religionist, but you were never a believer, according to the biblical definition of the term.

A biblically defined believer is someone who was born again by God's Word and Spirit. John 3:3-5, 1 John 5:3-13, 1 Peter 1:23.

Someone who is a biblically defined believer is someone who doesn't quit. John 8:30-36.

A biblically defined believer is someone who has received the indwelling of YHVH's Spirit. Romans 8:9.

An individual who is a biblically defined believer is someone who has translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of God through trusting Jesus for the remission of their sin.

Your whole conversion story is exactly that.
Your inability to describe why you have chosen to not believe him?
You tell me?
Why?
Can't you describe your own experience, based on what YHVH has explicitly stated?

God knows what I would be convinced by.
He further knows whether or not you actually want to know him, or just have argument fodder to push him away.

There's an ancient proverb that states,
The backslider is filled with his own ways.


According to Jeremiah God said "I will give them a heart to know me"
Are you saying he didn't?
Nope. That's what I'm trying to ascertain what happened to you.
You're telling me that he never actually did that for you.
You're further telling me that his failure to do so is your proof he doesn't actually exist.

So, my question is-- why has he been doing this for millennia to those who've come to Jesus and are following Jesus, but you are so special that he didn't do for you what he's done for the rest of us?

There's an incongruity here, and it's not his nonexistence.


No, people say that.
This sure is impressive to see you calling YHVH a liar.
Nope. YHVH says it.
You keep lying to yourself though. It's obviously working quite well as an excuse to send yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish...

Then it would be unquestionable. It is not.
Truth is always questioned by people who don't want to know the truth.
You should pay greater attention to the news today. It's quite impressive to see people explaining the truth, while being called conspiracy theorists by people who love the lies.

Again, man's words.
Gambling again I see.
Are you sure that you're able to cash these checks you keep writing with your mouth and beliefs?
It's pretty clear that you can't show that what the Bible claims is the truth.
That's because YHVH already demonstrated it truth. You simply need to decide if you actually want to know the truth.
There's only one way to accomplish this.
Do what Jesus said.

So you haven't met Jesus?
🤣
Actually, I have. It's far more profound than you think.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
How is relying on something else taking responsibility for yourself?
In this case, it's not a thing.
It's a person.

I'm surprised you are not acquainted with this concept.

When you are typing out your posts, aren't you relying on the writers of the software and the manufacturers of the computers, and the scientists who originally discovered that this computing technology can facilitate clear communication between people, far from one another?
As well as the designers, developers, programmers, and other people who developed the internet, and wireless technology and phone systems to further improve the quality of communication?
I know I am.

I absolutely have to rely on them, and their skills, expertise, etc... to effectively communicate with you and others.

Imagine if the ascii writers screwed up and instead of communicating with an orderly, and recognizable alphabet, your posts looked like
Oyslhdohdoyxl CD pufpjvpjfoudohxphdoydoy.

So... yes. I rely heavily on others to ensure that I am able to take responsibility for my actions, my words, my thoughts, my communication with you, and others.
Same goes for automotive technology.
I depend heavily on their skills to create a vehicle that is dependable. Mechanically, electronically. I depend heavily on engineers to build trustworthy roadways, bridges, etc. to travel safely wherever I go.
I depend heavily on businesses and employees to buy, sell, or transact any variety of different business types, so I can engage responsibly with them.

Everything in my life today requires me to rely heavily on others so I can efficiently, effectively, productively, and responsibly conduct my life, in every aspect of my life.



So I'm giving responsibility to myself but I'm not taking responsibility for myself?
Using the above example of computing technology, if you actually gave yourself responsibility, to effectively take responsibility for yourself, you'd have to figure out how to communicate with strangers. You'd then have to create a technological framework through which you would be able to communicate, and do so repeatedly, and consistently.
You'd have to design and build the technology, and then convince others to agree with your contraptions and then train them to use them.
Do you see the problem here?
What about people in other language systems?

The entire world in which we live today, others who came before us took the time to learn how those who came before them built a world where they could interact with each other. We too did likewise.

As Einstein once said...

We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.

We depend heavily on others in order to take responsibility for ourselves.

God did the impossible work that only he could do, and then ensure that it worked for everyone. So in order to do what God said is required, we must depend on him to do his part, and then we do what he said is our part.

Thus, we rely on another to take responsibility for ourselves.


Then the results are no evidence at all.
Actually, it's the result you want to ignore, while being biased by your own preconceptions about it.


What reason do you have for believing that there are eternal consequences for 'sin'?
The existence of YHVH and his having spent 45 years just in my life demonstrating himself to me, as real, knowable and exactly as described in the bible.
Learning that he is exactly as he described himself, shows me that eternity exists and is quite real.

When I get to know someone, and after a while they make a promise to me, the problem with believing the promise lies in their character and proven nature.

Abraham believed God, because God showed him his character and nature. The strength of the relationship between them is why Abe trusted him.

This dynamic exists with all who come to Jesus and follow him. God demonstrates himself reliable and trustworthy to us, in our lives.

It's the nature of the gospel of Jesus and his Love towards us.



And if you had received not response at all what would you have done?
Gotten myself killed because of the lifestyle I was engaged in at the time.
13 months later I got shot in the throat due to some bad choices I'd made.
My doctor said it was a miracle I wasn't killed. The margins between the major parts of my neck were quite close. I was told a half inch in any direction I would either have died, or been a quadriplegic for the rest of my life.
So.... I'd be in a grave right now had God not responded to my question.

Would you have accepted the Bible as true and kept following it's teachings?
Nope. It's quite clear to me that I'd be dead.
So why create the "Tree of Life".
Choice.
Choice between life and death.


It's not hard to see what you want to see.
And it's quite clear that you are seeing what you want to see.
You want nothing, so you're getting nothing.
I wanted to know the truth about Jesus and God, and I'm spending my life learning the truth and engaging him as Truth.
Exactly as he described.

If you continue in my teachings, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
And turned it to support his own understanding.
🤣
So, he described a distinct application for followers of Jesus, after having spent a lifetime of living in, and being a part of his Jewish community and culture, attending the finest Jewish educational institution, learning Jewish scriptures, and you're saying that he used it to support his own understanding....

Oh wow! Yeah. That must be it! Biblical Judaism and biblical christianity are the same beliefs.


He hasn't made sure I know him yet. So I guess I'll just have to wait until that happens.
You keep telling me that you don't actually want to know him.
So, why would he give you what you don't want?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I really don't think you can see how silly this is.
Actually, I'm mirroring the sheer silliness of what you're saying back to you.
I.e., it's quite clear that you have no idea just how silly you have been sounding for the past nearly a decade now.
So, yep. It's deliberate. I wanted you to see how you're seen.
Why would anyone avoid responsibility for themselves about something they really don't think is there?
It's a simple matter of whether you want to actually know the truth or not.
Your mouth is claiming one thing. Your actions are claiming the opposite.

In any case, here we are giving you every opportunity to explain how you know God is real and you never take it.
It's easier, on the internet forum, to let you see for yourself, because YHVH is far more effective at demonstrating himself real and knowable than a collection of words arranged in a manner that you can actually understand.

The idea really is quite simple.
If you're serious about learning and understanding the truth, then you'll take the time to learn to apply what the bible says for yourself.

If you're not serious about it, then you'll do what you have been doing for the past decade. Exactly what you have been doing.

There comes a point where no matter how complicated, no matter how detailed, no matter how erudite appearing an argument, when you don't actually want to know the truth, you're going to continue to excuse yourself from culpability and learning.

As I'd stated to you several years ago...

You are among the most educated person on this forum, regarding the bible and the truth.

Not one argument has ever forcefully convinced you to repent and believe the gospel of Jesus. In fact, the only thing it has done is to make you more callous towards the truth. It's like you have become inoculated against eternal life.

Which tells me that you are in an exceedingly deadly situation. You could die at any moment, without warning, just like the other young people I've been reading about for the past 2 weeks.
Young, on the rise to fame and glory in their lives and they died without any warning.
All in their twenties and early thirties.

P

You will now dodge and say you have, where you could so easily say here again, if you were sincere and wanted your message to come across.
Why should the truth be modified to fit your biases and preconceptions?
You have repeatedly demonstrated that the truth is important to you, but your actions, your refusal to learn the truth and then do the truth is proof that you just enjoy the debate, and have no interest whatsoever in actually knowing the truth.


Saying, do what Jesus said is not very helpful until you fully explain what exactly that was and what you doing it showed you.
Further demonstrating that you don't actually want to know the truth.
It's simple enough for a child to understand. Yet you're apparently too intelligent for the simplicity of the cross of Jesus. Which makes me wonder if intelligence is actually the proper word for this situation.

Paul describes it as-- believing themselves to be wise, they make themselves fools.

That you never do this all important last step just tells everyone you don't have a justified reason to believe.
This just tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about.


As my physics education, and my sheet metal apprenticeship taught me...

Without reading, you cannot learn. Without applying what you read, you cannot learn, nor can you understand the principles that define it as truthful.

And without action on these things, you will never know.

In your case, Paul describes it to Timothy.

Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

So, as I've stated several times before, you have placed yourself in a very dangerous position.



How, exactly, do you know?
Experience! I've told you this hundreds of times before.
YHVH demonstrates himself to those who believe him.



How do you know these words are true?
Experience.
I've been learning for the past 45+ years now, and continuing to work through these precepts and principles, so I can become more aware, and grow in the Grace and Knowledge of God.

It's the whole point.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
It's a simple matter of whether you want to actually know the truth or not.
Your mouth is claiming one thing. Your actions are claiming the opposite.
This is ridiculous. Of course I'm interested in the truth but you give no reason to think you have it.
It's easier, on the internet forum, to let you see for yourself, because YHVH is far more effective at demonstrating himself real and knowable than a collection of words arranged in a manner that you can actually understand.

The idea really is quite simple.
If you're serious about learning and understanding the truth, then you'll take the time to learn to apply what the bible says for yourself.
All this tells me is that you're not willing to openly discuss detail that would really count. Why not? Do you have said detail? Or is all it will amount to is that you feel it's all true?
If you're not serious about it, then you'll do what you have been doing for the past decade. Exactly what you have been doing.

There comes a point where no matter how complicated, no matter how detailed, no matter how erudite appearing an argument, when you don't actually want to know the truth, you're going to continue to excuse yourself from culpability and learning.
Why don't you give the truth? You're not really telling me anything that shows you have it. Because of this I don't think you do.
As I'd stated to you several years ago...

You are among the most educated person on this forum, regarding the bible and the truth.

Not one argument has ever forcefully convinced you to repent and believe the gospel of Jesus. In fact, the only thing it has done is to make you more callous towards the truth. It's like you have become inoculated against eternal life.
This only shows your poor understanding of both other people and how you come across. You've said nothing here that describes me.
Which tells me that you are in an exceedingly deadly situation. You could die at any moment, without warning, just like the other young people I've been reading about for the past 2 weeks.
Young, on the rise to fame and glory in their lives and they died without any warning.
All in their twenties and early thirties.
You never say anything that tells me this is true.
Why should the truth be modified to fit your biases and preconceptions?
You have repeatedly demonstrated that the truth is important to you, but your actions, your refusal to learn the truth and then do the truth is proof that you just enjoy the debate, and have no interest whatsoever in actually knowing the truth.
This is an avoidance of sincere, open conversation, telling me you don't really have the truth.
Further demonstrating that you don't actually want to know the truth.
It's simple enough for a child to understand. Yet you're apparently too intelligent for the simplicity of the cross of Jesus. Which makes me wonder if intelligence is actually the proper word for this situation.
In your case, it isn't.
Paul describes it as-- believing themselves to be wise, they make themselves fools.
So what? Just because Paul said it doesn't mean it's true.
This just tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
As my physics education, and my sheet metal apprenticeship taught me...

Without reading, you cannot learn. Without applying what you read, you cannot learn, nor can you understand the principles that define it as truthful.

And without action on these things, you will never know.
I don't believe you've had a physics education. If you have, I'd get your money back.
In your case, Paul describes it to Timothy.

Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

So, as I've stated several times before, you have placed yourself in a very dangerous position.
So you say. When are you going to get round to showing how you know it?
Experience! I've told you this hundreds of times before.
YHVH demonstrates himself to those who believe him.
Laughable. This is at the heart of it and you can't see the fool you're making of yourself. You believe first then YHVH makes himself known to you. How surprising.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
This is ridiculous. Of course I'm interested in the truth but you give no reason to think you have it.
Exactly what the bible says you'd say!
I've discussed this concept of ridiculousness multiple times over the years.
The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
The word, foolishness, is the Greek word--- moria.
We get idiotic, ridiculous, moronic, asinine, stupid, etc.....
So, congratulations, all without any help from anyone else, you have affirmed the veracity of the bible as true.

All this tells me is that you're not willing to openly discuss detail that would really count. Why not? Do you have said detail? Or is all it will amount to is that you feel it's all true?
That's ok. All your response tells me is that you're unwilling to engage YHVH on his terms, and let him demonstrate himself to you, in a manner which you lose all ability to refute.
As I've been saying for the near 10 years now--- it's your eternity, if you don't care now, it'll be too late once you die. And all your cries for another opportunity then will be met with silence-- the very silence you longed for- for your entire life.


Why don't you give the truth? You're not really telling me anything that shows you have it. Because of this I don't think you do.
I have. For nearly a decade now.
Jesus died for YOUR sin and rose again to bring YOU back to a right relationship with YHVH.
Repent and believe the gospel.
It's that simple!

This only shows your poor understanding of both other people and how you come across. You've said nothing here that describes me.
People are pretty much the same--- they want to control their own lives. They don't want to be told what to do, and they'll fight to the end to make sure they remain in control.
This is why the gospel is a problem for so many.
Jesus said-- if anyone WANTS to be my follower, they MUST deny themselves daily, pick up their cross and follow me.
Denying oneself is the antithesis of control.
Picking up one's cross, is an act of self-killing. As the cross is an instrument of death, in history, and apparently in Middle Eastern countries, is still viewed with disgust and contempt, a sign of weakness, and shame, it's also the antithesis of control.
So, you can believe whatever you want. You're in a position of delusion, believing that you have a clue.



You never say anything that tells me this is true.
Actually, I do. You've previously established that you reject anything that doesn't allow you to remain in control.
Death is coming--- are you ready for it?
This is an avoidance of sincere, open conversation, telling me you don't really have the truth.
You haven't demonstrated that you're actually going to engage in actual sincere, and open conversation.
I've been engaging in open, sincere conversation since my arrival on this forum in November 2012.
As such, this comment leads me to believe it's not open, sincere conversation you want. It's control, to turn off all open and sincere conversation about YHVH, Jesus, and the bible..... because you're not able to control it.

Here's a blast from the past--- if you actually wanted open and sincere conversation, you'd have answered all my questions, instead of telling me they were loaded, straw men, useless, pointless, etc...
So.... don't. It only embarrasses you. When you can answer questions that I actually ask, then we can return to actual open and sincere conversation.
And don't tell me that you'll answer any question I ask. We've been through this since at least 2013, and you've repeatedly proven your unwillingness to answer ANY question I've asked.

In your case, it isn't.
And yet, you're the one whining.
So what? Just because Paul said it doesn't mean it's true.
And just because you claim that doesn't mean that what Paul said is not true.
What it does mean is that you don't actually want it to be true, because that'd make you culpable to deal with it.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
Evidence that you want control and will never do what Jesus said.... all because you don't actually want to know the truth.

I don't believe you've had a physics education. If you have, I'd get your money back.
Must really suck to base your beliefs on your desperation to hide from the truth, while accusing others, without any actual knowledge.



So you say. When are you going to get round to showing how you know it?
I've already explained how--- experience.

Laughable. This is at the heart of it and you can't see the fool you're making of yourself. You believe first then YHVH makes himself known to you. How surprising.
Further proof you're affirming the truth of the bible.

The prophet is a fool,
The spiritual man is insane,
Because of the greatness of your iniquity and great enmity.

Since you have an incredibly short memory, allow this to help remind you of what I've described numerous times before.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

YHVH has chosen the foolish people, he's chosen the weak people, and the base/inferior/inept/despised people of the world to put to shame those who view themselves as wise/erudite, to shame those who view themselves as mighty, and to silence those who view themselves as the epitome of/superior to the rest of the human race.

So.... why... yes! YES I do!
Thank you for affirming the veracity of the bible. And just think--- you did it without anyone telling you what to think!
Man! You are SO good at this.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
What does spiritual blindness look like?

Spiritual blindness looks like an excuse you give to yourself for why people don't find to be credible the ideas that you do.

I'm not the one who is having a problem here. You keep telling me that you never actually met Jesus. Jesus said that he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.

So, if you actually never met him, then you never actually came to Jesus.
If that's what you need to believe rather than allow for the possibility that the Bible is wrong.

So, I'm not having a problem with your claim at all. You however keep telling me that Jesus lied, or doesn't exist.
As I and hundreds of millions of people have actually met Jesus, and found that he does in fact do exactly what he says he will, I'd say that you are lying to yourself.
Or Jesus didn't say what the Bible claims he said.
Of course you'd say that I'm lying to myself.

No, actually. We have God's Word for it. You simply don't want to know the truth. So you keep telling me that you don't believe what God said, and then apparently believe that as long as you don't believe it's really the Word of God, you're not going to be culpable for what you hear.
You are culpable. We're all culpable for what we hear. Regardless of whether or not we believe it. Failure to engage him on his terms will result in you experiencing the consequences for choosing to ignore him.
You have what is claimed to be God's word. You cannot prove it to be true.
I can't believe what I can't believe. If that means I'm culpable, so be it.

Your belief. It still doesn't change the fact.
It's becoming increasingly clear to me that you and others here have somehow gotten the idea that there's an argument that can be made which will convince you, by forceful consent to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus.
It's like you think that we're going to arm wrestle you into submission to the bible and the gospel of Jesus.
Your belief doesn't make it a fact.
I'm not looking for forced consent.
It seems to me that Christians here think there is an argument that can be made which will convince me.

It's never been or that way, nor ever will be.
You either want to know the truth or you don't.
If you don't, then you will perish, and after it's too late to do anything about it, you'll find out the hard way that you screwed yourself.
It's worth your time to learn the truth. Doing so will save you an eternity of misery.
Allegedly. If you can show it to be any more than the equivalent of being put on Santa's naughty list, then I'll be concerned.

Yep. The religious and political leaders were terrified of the implications of their Messiah coming, and taking on sin, but not changing their political status.
No, they were concerned about those who believed in him starting a revolt.
The Romans couldn't have cared less about 'sin'.

I'm thinking that you have an erroneous idea of the evidence he has chosen to give.
This tells me that you have preconceptions and biases that are preventing you from experiencing him.
Lose them. They're only hurting you.
I'm thinking you find credible things that I don't.

Evidence that you are filled with bias, and preconceptions. Lose them.
They're hurting you.
Just as you are when you consider the Bible anything more. When you can show that my biases are wrong and they're hurting me, then I'll take notice.

Considering the lifestyle I was living in 1977, I'd likely be long dead, and nothing but a cadaver, or even dust by now.
So, no.
So your excuse is that you'd be dead so you don't need to consider what you would have done.

And so stuck on your preconceptions and biases, that you're preventing yourself from knowing him.
And yet you're still excluding yourself by giving excuses.
YHVH is responsible for his part. We are individually responsible for our respective individual parts.
So YHVH doesn't have the power to overcome human bias?

Since you have said you never actually met Jesus in the first place, you may have been a religionist, but you were never a believer, according to the biblical definition of the term.
A biblically defined believer is someone who was born again by God's Word and Spirit. John 3:3-5, 1 John 5:3-13, 1 Peter 1:23.
Someone who is a biblically defined believer is someone who doesn't quit. John 8:30-36.
A biblically defined believer is someone who has received the indwelling of YHVH's Spirit. Romans 8:9.
An individual who is a biblically defined believer is someone who has translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of God through trusting Jesus for the remission of their sin.
So a believer is only someone who has garnered the rewards of that belief?
So what are those who have come to Jesus but haven't yet passed that threshold?

Why?
Can't you describe your own experience, based on what YHVH has explicitly stated?
I told you. My experience was a lack of response from YHVH. Can I explain that response? No.

He further knows whether or not you actually want to know him, or just have argument fodder to push him away.
There's an ancient proverb that states,
The backslider is filled with his own ways.
So your God should no what I would be unable to argue away.

Nope. That's what I'm trying to ascertain what happened to you.
You're telling me that he never actually did that for you.
You're further telling me that his failure to do so is your proof he doesn't actually exist.

So, my question is-- why has he been doing this for millennia to those who've come to Jesus and are following Jesus, but you are so special that he didn't do for you what he's done for the rest of us?
That assumes he did anything ever.
Your the one with the inside track on YHVH, so why don't you explain it.

There's an incongruity here, and it's not his nonexistence.
So you say.

This sure is impressive to see you calling YHVH a liar.
Nope. YHVH says it.
You keep lying to yourself though. It's obviously working quite well as an excuse to send yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish...
I'm not calling YHVH a liar. I'm calling those Biblical authors, who put words in the mouth of God, liars.

Truth is always questioned by people who don't want to know the truth.
You should pay greater attention to the news today. It's quite impressive to see people explaining the truth, while being called conspiracy theorists by people who love the lies.
Claims are always questioned when not backed by evidence.
What's today's conspiracy? Have you got your seat on that bandwagon?

Gambling again I see.
Are you sure that you're able to cash these checks you keep writing with your mouth and beliefs?
It's only gambling when the result is in question.

That's because YHVH already demonstrated it truth. You simply need to decide if you actually want to know the truth.
There's only one way to accomplish this.
Do what Jesus said.
🤣
Actually, I have. It's far more profound than you think.
If YHVH already demonstrated it truth, there would be no question about it. There is so...?
You said no-one had yet met Jesus. I wish you'd make up your mind.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
In this case, it's not a thing.
It's a person.

I'm surprised you are not acquainted with this concept.

When you are typing out your posts, aren't you relying on the writers of the software and the manufacturers of the computers, and the scientists who originally discovered that this computing technology can facilitate clear communication between people, far from one another?
As well as the designers, developers, programmers, and other people who developed the internet, and wireless technology and phone systems to further improve the quality of communication?
I know I am.

I absolutely have to rely on them, and their skills, expertise, etc... to effectively communicate with you and others.
Maybe that’s your problem. I rely upon myself to effectively communicate. I rely on those folks only to get my post from A to B.

Imagine if the ascii writers screwed up and instead of communicating with an orderly, and recognizable alphabet, your posts looked like
Oyslhdohdoyxl CD pufpjvpjfoudohxphdoydoy.

So... yes. I rely heavily on others to ensure that I am able to take responsibility for my actions, my words, my thoughts, my communication with you, and others.
Same goes for automotive technology.
I depend heavily on their skills to create a vehicle that is dependable. Mechanically, electronically. I depend heavily on engineers to build trustworthy roadways, bridges, etc. to travel safely wherever I go.
I depend heavily on businesses and employees to buy, sell, or transact any variety of different business types, so I can engage responsibly with them.

Everything in my life today requires me to rely heavily on others so I can efficiently, effectively, productively, and responsibly conduct my life, in every aspect of my life.

Using the above example of computing technology, if you actually gave yourself responsibility, to effectively take responsibility for yourself, you'd have to figure out how to communicate with strangers. You'd then have to create a technological framework through which you would be able to communicate, and do so repeatedly, and consistently.
You'd have to design and build the technology, and then convince others to agree with your contraptions and then train them to use them.
Do you see the problem here?
What about people in other language systems?

The entire world in which we live today, others who came before us took the time to learn how those who came before them built a world where they could interact with each other. We too did likewise.
As Einstein once said...
We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.

We depend heavily on others in order to take responsibility for ourselves.

God did the impossible work that only he could do, and then ensure that it worked for everyone. So in order to do what God said is required, we must depend on him to do his part, and then we do what he said is our part.

Thus, we rely on another to take responsibility for ourselves.
I rely on others to create the ability for me to post. I don’t make them responsible for what I post.
If I post racist rants on twitter is the guy who coded that platform responsible for my actions?


Actually, it's the result you want to ignore, while being biased by your own preconceptions about it.
So I should ignore the apparent non-response from God and not conclude from it that there is no God or that he doesn’t care to make himself known to me?

The existence of YHVH and his having spent 45 years just in my life demonstrating himself to me, as real, knowable and exactly as described in the bible.
Learning that he is exactly as he described himself, shows me that eternity exists and is quite real.

When I get to know someone, and after a while they make a promise to me, the problem with believing the promise lies in their character and proven nature.

Abraham believed God, because God showed him his character and nature. The strength of the relationship between them is why Abe trusted him.
Origin stories are like that.

Nope. It's quite clear to me that I'd be dead.

So then up until you died would you have “continued in Christ’ teachings”?

And it's quite clear that you are seeing what you want to see.
You want nothing, so you're getting nothing.
I wanted to know the truth about Jesus and God, and I'm spending my life learning the truth and engaging him as Truth.
Exactly as he described.
No, I actually wanted something and I got nothing.

So, he described a distinct application for followers of Jesus, after having spent a lifetime of living in, and being a part of his Jewish community and culture, attending the finest Jewish educational institution, learning Jewish scriptures, and you're saying that he used it to support his own understanding....

Oh wow! Yeah. That must be it! Biblical Judaism and biblical christianity are the same beliefs.
Paul described a distinct application for followers of Jesus, based upon his “vision”.
Jesus was a Jew. His disciples were Jews.
Jesus mission was not to do away with Judaism but to free it from the rules imposed by the priestly classes.

You keep telling me that you don't actually want to know him.
So, why would he give you what you don't want?
No, that’s what you keep telling me. Another excuse for why YHVH doesn’t show up.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Spiritual blindness looks like an excuse you give to yourself for why people don't find to be credible the ideas that you do.
I'm not the one who wrote the article.
You're more than welcome to take your complaint up with the author.
His bio page has his contact profile.


If that's what you need to believe rather than allow for the possibility that the Bible is wrong.
So, you're not actually interested in knowing the truth.
That's all you had to say in the first place.

Or Jesus didn't say what the Bible claims he said.
Of course you'd say that I'm lying to myself.
YHVH says you're lying to yourself.
So does Tommy Shaw, of the late 1970's rock band, Styx.

styx fooling yourself lyrics https://g.co/kgs/1u7939


You have what is claimed to be God's word.
Historically. Yes.
You cannot prove it to be true.
Depends entirely on what you think proof is.
I've proven it's true by acting on it.
Which, in my book is really the most effective way to know.

I can't believe what I can't believe. If that means I'm culpable, so be it.
I'm thinking that it's more accurate to say- you can't believe what you don't want to know.
But, it's pretty clear that that you have deluded yourself to believe that you are right, and God doesn't exist.

The thing I find curious is that unless you have all possible knowledge, you couldn't possibly know whether he's real or not, without him making himself known to you.

Especially when we read, God holds the entirety of the cosmos in the span of his hand, and then, God inhabits eternity yet dwells with the humble and contrite.

We further read elsewhere that God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble.

So, it seems pretty clear that you have a problem here.
Your belief doesn't make it a fact.
Nope. The facts make my belief valid.
This is something that you apparently don't grasp.

I'm not looking for forced consent.
Good, because YHVH doesn't work that way.
You either want to know or not.
He's not going to arm wrestle you, nor will he force you.
It's entirely a you thing.

He will give you exactly what you want with regards to this.
As we read regarding the Pharoah of Egypt.
God hardened his heart.
Pharaoh didn't want to know YHVH, so after ten very clear and concise events, a few of which even his advisers recognized, he kept pushing YHVH away, so he got what he wanted.... to be left alone.
His last act was to go after the Israeli people to drag them back to Egypt, and he drove his army into the sea, and they drowned as a result.
So, if you're going to dedicate yourself to pushing YHVH away, you will get exactly what you want.... to be separated from him. Forever. And it'll be your own doing that achieved this.


It seems to me that Christians here think there is an argument that can be made which will convince me.
Then you missed the point, and the truth.
The gospel of Jesus is an invitation to reconcile with God.
Nobody is going to grab you, and force you to come to Jesus.
We're giving you an invitation to the wedding feast of the Son. You're being offered a gift. The gift of eternal life. It's a gift in every sense of the word. There's nothing you can do to earn it.

It's like the birthday gifts, and Christmas gifts you were given as a child, and young person from your family members.



Allegedly. If you can show it to be any more than the equivalent of being put on Santa's naughty list, then I'll be concerned.
I'm thinking that the pharaoh felt much the same way as Moses was explaining things to him.

Sad that he decided to destroy himself in his quest to be the captain of his own destiny.



No, they were concerned about those who believed in him starting a revolt.
Yeah. Further demonstrating that they weren't actually paying attention to what Jesus said.
Revolution isn't accomplished by loving one's enemies, blessing those who treat them hatefully, and praying for those who are spiteful towards them.


The Romans couldn't have cared less about 'sin'.
And yet history shows what happened to them.... the Roman empire imploded in on itself because of moral rot, allowing external forces to overthrow it.
Seems like they should have been concerned about sin.
There's a Scottish historian, by the name of Tytler who shows a rather interesting perspective on the destruction of civilizations in history.

Perhaps you should learn it.
I'm thinking you find credible things that I don't.
That much is obvious.

Just as you are when you consider the Bible anything more. When you can show that my biases are wrong and they're hurting me, then I'll take notice.
I'm thinking that human history has already done it.
Haven't you ever actually studied it before?

So your excuse is that you'd be dead so you don't need to consider what you would have done.
It's a lifestyle thing.
Mine was utterly self destructive and was leading me to my demise.

So YHVH doesn't have the power to overcome human bias?
It's a gentlemanly thing.
It's not a matter of having the power. It's a matter of he loves us enough to let us make our own choices.
Including when those choices are resulting in our self destruction.
He'll do everything possible, short of putting a leash on us.

So a believer is only someone who has garnered the rewards of that belief?
A believer is someone who has placed their trust in Jesus, for the payment of their sin, and has chosen to follow Jesus, as Lord of their lives.
As he described in the gospels.

If anyone WANTS to be my follower, let them deny themselves daily, pick up their cross and follow me.

In another place, he said, if anyone doesn't deny themselves, and pick up their cross and follow me, they cannot be my follower.


So what are those who have come to Jesus but haven't yet passed that threshold?
It's all contained in the bible.

Jesus said that unless we are born spiritually, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
So, it seems that if you haven't actually "crossed the threshold" of the new birth, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Jesus said that unless we have a righteousness that exceeds mere outward morality, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

So, it seems that if you haven't actually "crossed the threshold" of having an inner righteousness, which is of the heart, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Jesus said that unless we become as a little child we shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

So, it seems that if you haven't actually "crossed the threshold" of becoming like a little child, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Eternal life is a gift. Children receive gifts without complaining and arguing.
It's a curious dynamic regarding how much children love receiving gifts. It's further curious about how standoffish adults are about receiving gifts from loved ones. They're so ready to try to pay for the gift, make some form of restitution for the gifts. They'll respond by saying they cannot accept the gift, because they don't deserve it, or any number of different reasons.

Unless you become as a child, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

So, it seems that if you haven't actually "crossed the threshold" of becoming like a little child, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Don't exclude yourself from receiving the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord.

He thought that you were worth enough to have died for you.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I told you. My experience was a lack of response from YHVH. Can I explain that response? No.
The lack is the point here.
He said he did respond.
"I will not turn away anyone who comes to me."

So, if you didn't actually "get a response" from him, the question becomes why.
Especially when he was quite clear that he would not turn you away.

I've repeatedly described the various possibilities for this.
To you, the ONLY possibility is that he doesn't exist.
And the hundreds of millions of people who have actually experienced success in meeting him leaves you with one possibility.... we're all deluded and you are the only sane person in the mix of human history.

So.... since history has born out that there can be no mass hysteria or hallucinations, in disparate and distinct individual groups, when it gets down to the individual person.

Although, I suppose that the British people would be happy now that their queen has died. After all, she apparently was among the deluded.

A queen who talked about Jesus


Yep. It appears that Queen Elizabeth was a Jesus follower.
So... if the longest reigning monarch in the history of the empire was a follower of Jesus, just how do you think that it's going to work here?


So your God should no what I would be unable to argue away.
?
Is that a typo?
Jesus was quite clear that nobody who comes to him will be refused.
And if he's received the British Queen, why would he refuse you?

We do after all read, not many mighty; not many noble, not many wise are among the called. He has chosen the weak, foolish and detestable to silence the wise, powerful and noble among humanity.


That assumes he did anything ever.
Nope. It's just by looking at the world and the heavens.
They do after all scream out his glory and majesty.
We further read he has not left himself without a witness, in that he's given us everything we need to live, and enjoy life.
We further read that he has made it quite clear that he exists, through the world and heavens.

It takes a deliberate and willful effort to close one's mind to ignore what we see all around us.
Blinding ourselves to his goodness.

Your the one with the inside track on YHVH, so why don't you explain it.
It's quite simple.
Jesus is the only way we have to know him.

So you say.
Pity you are ignoring the source of why I say.
He's made himself available to you too.

I'm not calling YHVH a liar. I'm calling those Biblical authors, who put words in the mouth of God, liars.
Which is curious, because YHVH has explicitly stated that he is the one who chose to bring human beings into his family and invite them to be his mouthpiece.
We see it throughout the bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
It's a curious thing too...
Moses was the very first guy we see as an overtly invited person to be God's mouthpiece.
Moses gave every excuse in the book to get God to leave him alone. Finally God said that he'd use Moses' brother, Aaron.
We see elsewhere, Isaiah was invited, but had a lips problem.
So, God cleansed his lips, and then issued the invitation. Down through history, God has explicitly chosen human beings to be his mouthpieces for their respective generations and times.

So, by doing this, you are in fact calling YHVH a liar.

1Jn 5:10 WEB He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who doesn’t believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son.

It's a pretty basic, and clearly stated idea.
You're more than welcome to disagree, dislike, and reject it. But the outcome is exactly the same.



Claims are always questioned when not backed by evidence.
Ironically, the evidence has been the same for the past couple of millennia.
Jesus rose from the dead.

Even the Queen of England believed that.

A queen who talked about Jesus



What's today's conspiracy?
That you have far more profound faith than any Jesus followers I've ever met, myself included, and according to 9 medical doctors who have at least 2 to 3 decades of medical practice have all declared that I'm a miracle.
So, I'm thinking that you are the conspiracy.

Have you got your seat on that bandwagon?
No, but you sure do.
It's only gambling when the result is in question.
To us it's not in question, because the Person in charge has been making himself knowable to us since the day we believed him.

A few years ago I heard a rather poignant story.
A man with a terminal disease went to his doctor, who was a follower of Jesus. Knowing this about his doctor, he asked him his thoughts on heaven. The doctor responded that he didn't know what heaven was like. This if course surprised the man, and he responded accordingly. At that time, the doctor's dog started scratching on the door to the room the patient and doctor were in. The doctor opened the door and then proceeded to explain to the man that his dog had never been in the room before, had no idea what it looked like, etc....
What the dog did know was that his master was in the room, and he wanted to be with his master.

It's pretty much the same for everyone who is following Jesus.
We don't know what eternity is like, beyond the description given in the bible. We do however know that Jesus is there. And as he said to us: in my Father's house are many rooms. I go to prepare a place for you and I will return to bring you with me that where I am, you may also be.

Thus, the result is actually known.
Simply because we know the One who has previously described it to us.

So, you are taking a serious gamble, but don't have the knowledge to know what's beyond.
Do you really want to walk through a door without knowing who/what is on the other side of the door?



If YHVH already demonstrated it truth, there would be no question about it. There is so...?
There are lotteries all around the country that are promising to make someone wealthier than they could possibly fathom.
The lotteries are real. SomeONE will in fact win, and receive an enormous amount of money.
Yet tens and indeed, hundreds of millions of people won't invest the time and money to buy a ticket for their shot at becoming a multi millionaire.
Why is this?
So, wanna try that again.


You said no-one had yet met Jesus. I wish you'd make up your mind.
Where?
Do you have the post where I said that?
 
Top