How to know that God exists.

1. PRESUMES his existence - he can't have "intelligence and rational faculty and reasoning prowess" unless he exists.
2. doesn't work - no reason to think that any god had anything to do with any of these books.
3. doesn't work - if it happens completely inside your head, you've know way to confirm any of it.

yrger said:

There are three ways for man to know God exists:
1. By his intelligence and rational faculty and reasoning prowess.
2. By reading the bible for Christians and Orthodox Jews, and the koran for Muslims.
3. By meditation.

Hi Eightcrackers, you are an atheist(?) against God in No. 2.

What about God in No. 1?

-------------------


Hi Eightcrackers, thanks a lot for your responses to my posts.

Honestly, I seem to have a hard time trying to grasp what you are saying in your responses to my posts.

For example, this one:
1. PRESUMES his existence - he can't have "intelligence and rational faculty and reasoning prowess" unless he exists.
2. doesn't work - no reason to think that any god had anything to do with any of these books.
3. doesn't work - if it happens completely inside your head, you've know way to confirm any of it.

------------

For a while I was sorry for myself that it seemed you had decided to boycott me.

Let you ask me questions, okay?

And I like to ask you questions, if it's too personal and you get annoyed, just tell me to stop, okay?

Were you a Christian before?
 
How to do that without violating their right to choose?
1. There are two kinds of people: those that choose to love Yahweh, and those that do not.
2. Each group has free will, but Yahweh knows in advance - before he creates them, even - which way they'll (freely) choose.
3. The free will of each group does not depend on the existence of the other.

Therefore, Yahweh could create only those that he knows will freely choose to love him - refraining from creating those that he knows will not - and all created peoples would have free will, with none going to hell.

If you find fault with any of the above, let me know which one/s.
 
No.

I went to a CofE primary school, but I never really believed any of it.


Am I correct that you know what I might call Christianism, but you don't it seems give any fig to it - still you seem to harbor some shadow of grudge against it, that's why you are here in CARM Christian forums, to express your grudge against Christianism.

But you are not a hostile atheist who has to ridicule God in public. (?)
 
1. There are two kinds of people: those that choose to love Yahweh, and those that do not.
2. Each group has free will, but Yahweh knows in advance - before he creates them, even - which way they'll (freely) choose.
3. The free will of each group does not depend on the existence of the other.

Therefore, Yahweh could create only those that he knows will freely choose to love him - refraining from creating those that he knows will not - and all created peoples would have free will, with none going to hell.

If you find fault with any of the above, let me know which one/s.
What would happen to all the uncreated people that God foreknew would deny Him if He created them?
 
What, magic?
You've repeatedly made it quite clear that you don't actually want to know the truth. You want something that you can control.
The whole reason you refuse to come to Jesus is because you're afraid that he'll actually do what he says he will.



Do what Jesus said and you'll learn for yourself that the bible is God's word.


Oh.... wait. I forgot. You don't actually want to take responsibility for yourself and the truth.

Well, it is indeed your life.


Nothing that you consider good.

That's typically the excuse given by cowardly people.

When you decide that you're tired and weary of playing games with your life and constantly giving excuses, just call on the name of Jesus.
This whole post is typical of you in that it avoids reasonable conversation of which you seem incapable. Instead of being open you blame others and make unfounded accusations. It's actually a form of bullying.
 
Am I correct that you know what I might call Christianism, but you don't it seems give any fig to it - still you seem to harbor some shadow of grudge against it, that's why you are here in CARM Christian forums, to express your grudge against Christianism.
My feelings about Christianity in no way affect my assessment of its truth.
I don't consider false because I dislike it; I consider it false and I dislike it.

"You're an atheist because you didn't get the pony you prayed for" is a tiresome and disingenuous dismissal.
But you are not a hostile atheist who has to ridicule God in public. (?)
I am hostile to supernaturalism in general, religion more specifically, and Christianity especially.

If the religious simply believed what they believed and left everybody else alone, there would be no problem.
But they don't. They insist on trying to make everybody live the way they live.
 
Don't neglect to pray for Tiburon.
It is you yourself who have pushed him or rather pulled him into the abyss with your satanic messages and silly theories. Any intelligent and wise person would have despised the dung that comes out of your brain, a brute beast's brain. Your trash produce only foolish and useless discussions in the abyss where you live, that is your place, O spirit of lie.

In fact people waste time replying your foolish and stupid talks, which is good for nothing and only produce only silly chatters.

The wise Man in His wisdom said: "If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” He still say that out of the heart come evil thoughts—false testimony, murder, adultery, immoralities, theft, slander. It's a total decadence and destruction.

Don't you know? The Word is GOD. https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-word-is-god-great-mystery.2494/
 
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As you said, unless I am called, there is nothing I can do about it.

Your god could always convince me that his way is just and good, though...

My position is not locked down - your god could convince me, any time he pleases, both that he exists and that he is in the moral right.

Failing that, my mind would change the moment I saw an argument with no flaw I could detect.

Anybody that says "my god is good" is also judging their god.

It's no less a judgement merely because it's a favourable one.

We mean different things by "god".
If by "god" you mean "source of my own morality", then I suppose you are right.

The god that I don't and can't believe exists until he calls me?

Bit of a Catch-22, isn't it...?

There is no such thing as an atheist.

My view is that all men KNOW there is a God that created them.
I have strong Biblical reasons for believing this to be true.

Here they are , , ,

Romans 1:19-20
Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about
God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible
qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has
been made, so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
{1) There is information that can be known about God.
{2} This information is plain to men.
{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
{6} All this in understood from what God created.
{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Human Person, the Earth-Sun-Moon-Stars, and the Universe.

Psalm 19:1-4 , , ,
Psalm 19:1-4 says , , ,
"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Note the particulars in Psalm 19:1-4
{1} The Heavens declare God's glory.
{2} The skies above proclaim His works
{3} Day after day they speak of God's creative work
{4} Night after night they reveal God's works
{5} They use no literal word but their voice goes out worldwide
{6} Therefore all men KNOW there is a God

Just because some men claim they lack belief in the existence
of God does not mean that they actually DO lack belief in the
existence of God. On Christian lights, God, in Romans, and in
other Bible verses, says there is no such thing as an atheist.
As a Christian I have a clear choice:
{1} I can believe what God says
{2} I can believe what mere men claim to be true.

I choose to believe {1}
{see list of those 5 Bible references below}

Romans 1:18
Romans 1:18 says that humans "suppress the truth." Atheists
are part of humanity, so Romans 1:18 applies to them also.

Romans 2:15 , , ,
Romans 2:15 says the requirements of the Laws of God are
"written on their hearts." So all men know there is a God that
created them.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 , , ,
Ecclesiastes 3:11 says , , ,
"He has also set eternity in the human heart"

Five Biblical References , , ,
These Bible verses clearly teach there is no such thing
as an atheist.
Romans 1:18-20
Romans 1:18
Romans 2:15
Psalm 19:1-4
Ecclesiastes 3:11

Best.

JAG
 
There is no such thing as an atheist.

My view is that all men KNOW there is a God that created them.
I have strong Biblical reasons for believing this to be true.
And I, knowing the contents of my own mind, know that these reasons are faulty.
I get that you cannot conceive of somebody rejecting that which you find so obvious... but that's your problem.

Just curious - how would you go about proving to a third party that I am not an atheist, if this party does not consider the Bible to be sufficient evidence?
 
There is no such thing as an atheist.

My view is that all men KNOW there is a God that created them.
I have strong Biblical reasons for believing this to be true.
In order for this to be shown true, you have to show how you know the Bible is accurate in what it says about this.
 
There is no such thing as an atheist.

My view is that all men KNOW there is a God that created them.
I have strong Biblical reasons for believing this to be true.

Here they are , , ,

Romans 1:19-20
Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about
God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible
qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has
been made, so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
{1) There is information that can be known about God.
{2} This information is plain to men.
{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
{6} All this in understood from what God created.
{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Human Person, the Earth-Sun-Moon-Stars, and the Universe.

Psalm 19:1-4 , , ,
Psalm 19:1-4 says , , ,
"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Note the particulars in Psalm 19:1-4
{1} The Heavens declare God's glory.
{2} The skies above proclaim His works
{3} Day after day they speak of God's creative work
{4} Night after night they reveal God's works
{5} They use no literal word but their voice goes out worldwide
{6} Therefore all men KNOW there is a God

Just because some men claim they lack belief in the existence
of God does not mean that they actually DO lack belief in the
existence of God. On Christian lights, God, in Romans, and in
other Bible verses, says there is no such thing as an atheist.
As a Christian I have a clear choice:
{1} I can believe what God says
{2} I can believe what mere men claim to be true.

I choose to believe {1}
{see list of those 5 Bible references below}

Romans 1:18
Romans 1:18 says that humans "suppress the truth." Atheists
are part of humanity, so Romans 1:18 applies to them also.

Romans 2:15 , , ,
Romans 2:15 says the requirements of the Laws of God are
"written on their hearts." So all men know there is a God that
created them.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 , , ,
Ecclesiastes 3:11 says , , ,
"He has also set eternity in the human heart"

Five Biblical References , , ,
These Bible verses clearly teach there is no such thing
as an atheist.
Romans 1:18-20
Romans 1:18
Romans 2:15
Psalm 19:1-4
Ecclesiastes 3:11

Best.

JAG
Here's another way to say what Eightcrackers and Whatsisface are saying:

When you say that "all men know there is a god," and use those Bible verses to back that up, those Bible verses actually provide no support whatsoever for your claim, because all the Bible verse are doing are re-stating the claim (just using some different words).
 
There is no such thing as an atheist.

My view is that all men KNOW there is a God that created them.
I have strong Biblical reasons for believing this to be true.

Here they are , , ,

Romans 1:19-20
Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about
God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible
qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has
been made, so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
{1) There is information that can be known about God.
{2} This information is plain to men.
{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
{6} All this in understood from what God created.
{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Human Person, the Earth-Sun-Moon-Stars, and the Universe.

Psalm 19:1-4 , , ,
Psalm 19:1-4 says , , ,
"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Note the particulars in Psalm 19:1-4
{1} The Heavens declare God's glory.
{2} The skies above proclaim His works
{3} Day after day they speak of God's creative work
{4} Night after night they reveal God's works
{5} They use no literal word but their voice goes out worldwide
{6} Therefore all men KNOW there is a God

Just because some men claim they lack belief in the existence
of God does not mean that they actually DO lack belief in the
existence of God. On Christian lights, God, in Romans, and in
other Bible verses, says there is no such thing as an atheist.
As a Christian I have a clear choice:
{1} I can believe what God says
{2} I can believe what mere men claim to be true.

I choose to believe {1}
{see list of those 5 Bible references below}

Romans 1:18
Romans 1:18 says that humans "suppress the truth." Atheists
are part of humanity, so Romans 1:18 applies to them also.

Romans 2:15 , , ,
Romans 2:15 says the requirements of the Laws of God are
"written on their hearts." So all men know there is a God that
created them.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 , , ,
Ecclesiastes 3:11 says , , ,
"He has also set eternity in the human heart"

Five Biblical References , , ,
These Bible verses clearly teach there is no such thing
as an atheist.
Romans 1:18-20
Romans 1:18
Romans 2:15
Psalm 19:1-4
Ecclesiastes 3:11

Best.

JAG
Surely what matters and prevails is the Word, the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD, yes, GOD made flesh, you understand.

Hebrews 1:v.6-8

6 - When GOD the Father bringeth in the firstbegotten/firstborn into the world, he saith, And let all the ANGELS of GOD worship Him. (Yes, all the angels must worship JESUS, the firstbegotten, because JESUS is GOD, GOD Father incarnated, in other words, the EXPRESS IMAGE of His person, the Person of GOD the Father. You understand.

7 - And of the angels, GOD maketh his angels winds/spirits, and His Ministers/servants a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son-unto JESUS- GOD the Father saith: Thy throne, O GOD,(Yeah, GOD JESUS) - is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy Kingdom. ---> As JESUS said: I and my Father are One. <---

No man knows the Son,but the Father;neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he TO WHOMSOEVER the Son will reveal Him. Matthew 11:v.27

Speaking of Kingdom - Revelation 11:v. 15-18


15 - The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (World of Devil-Luke 4:v.5-8) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

18 And the nations were (will be) angry, and GOD's wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth. --> This prophecy is already fulfilling LITERALLY.

Revelation 6:v.9-10 and 12 and 15-17

9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;...

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:

17 For the great day -the LORD's Day- of his WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Word is GOD, yeah, the Word is GOD, great mystery. For the Lord most High is terrible; He is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
 
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1 Corinthians 15:v.45-46
45 ...The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Well, since the beginning the Word -i.e. GOD- had planned to make man in His image, but how? GOD sent JESUS about 4000 years after Adam, the first earthly man. And JESUS said: My Father works hitherto, and I work - John 5:v.17. Notice that when JESUS said this, still very recently He was in the bosom of the Word, i.e.GOD, but now He already was in person working together with the Word, i.e.GOD, and it at the age 30, or so, then He revealed that His Father was still working, although it was still the beginning of the fifth Day. But Jesus knew what He was talking about, so He said: I and my Father are One.

Yes, since the beginning the Word -i.e. GOD- had planned to make man in His image, but how? once He is Spirit? The Word-i.e. GOD-is Spirit. How could man see an image of the Spirit? What is its image, the image of the Spirit? It would be impossible to describe, unless it be created materially, physically, its own image. This explains why Israel always was tempted by the Devil to create an image of GOD for to worship it, and they made even a golden calf.

According the Word, first He needed to create an image from He Himself and that's what God did, and thus JESUS was born in the turn of the fourth to the fifth Day, Aleluia!!! or in the turn of fourth to the fifth millennium. JESUS was no longer in the bosom of the Father, the Word. GOD-the Word- had just sent His only begotten, for "He loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the NAME of the only begotten Son of God, i.e. JESUS. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil"-John 3:v.16 to 19.

DETAIL: On God's clock it was midnight, so a new Day, the fifth Day, was rising when JESUS was born, and from that moment ahead the MEN could see and know the image of the Spirit, i.e. the image of the Word-GOD.

Since the beginning, GOD had planned to make man in His image, but how? once He was Spirit and the only One specifically, as whether He was alone? With the birth of JESUS, GOD the Father could fulfill His wonderful promise to make man in His image, as He planned and revealed to Moses about 2500 years after Adam: Genesis 1:v.26 - Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ... As is written, GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were - Romans 4:v.17.

And the author of Hebrews reveals: Hebrews 1:v.1-4 and so on:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds (Who is worthy to reach the next world which will be established in this current millennium by the Almighty GOD through JESUS? Check it in Luke 20:v.35-36 combined with Revelation 11:v.15 to 18)

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent NAME than they.

Well, from JESUS until this current time, have passed more 2000 years, so we are living at the turn of the sixth Day to the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, or seventh and last millennium, the millennium of GOD's Kingdom-Revelation 20:v.4-6- , so in fulfillment of what says the Word, i.e. GOD Father-Revelation 1:v.1- through JESUS, the dead shall be raised incorruptible-1 Cor.15:v.52-, and we that are alive shall be changed-Philippians 3:v.20-21- , For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Aleluiaaa!!! 1Corinthians 15:v.53-54

1Thessalonians 4:v.15-18


15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, the only wise GOD, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Timothy 1:v.17

Amen
 
I am hostile to supernaturalism in general, religion more specifically, and Christianity especially.

If the religious simply believed what they believed and left everybody else alone, there would be no problem.
But they don't. They insist on trying to make everybody live the way they live.

Hi Eight, that's a good summary of your attitude toward God.

So, you are hostile to theists because they don't leave you alone.

On the other hand, why don't you just leave them alone, by for one thing, not talking in Christian forums like the present one in CARM.

So, am I correct that you really want to prove to theists like yours truly that God does not exist.

I on the other hand just love proving to you and people like you that God exists.

Will you agree with me, that you and I we want to show reciprocally that I am smarter than you, and from your part, that you are smarter than me.

Suppose we first concur that some entity did put us in existence, because we did not put ourselves in existence.

What do you say, yes or no, do we concur that some entity did put us in existence.
 
So, you are hostile to theists because they don't leave you alone.
Not theists.
Theism.

I firmly believe that religion is the worst mistake that humanity has ever made, and I wonder where we would be now, had it never come about.
On the other hand, why don't you just leave them alone, by for one thing, not talking in Christian forums like the present one in CARM.
Is it not correct to combat that with which you disagree?
I on the other hand just love proving to you and people like you that God exists.
Prove it, then.
I've pointed out the flaws in everything you've offered thus far...
Suppose we first concur that some entity did put us in existence, because we did not put ourselves in existence.

What do you say, yes or no, do we concur that some entity did put us in existence.
Depends what you mean by "us".

If you mean you and me specifically, then yes - our parents are the entities that put us into existence.

If you mean humanity in general, and the universe in even more general, then no - why would I?
 
Hi devotees of the Bible, that includes all Christians even the ones who are into cults but still devotees of the Bible.

Do you know of any society organized by Christians to be their sole authoritative interpreter of the Bible?


Not theists.
Theism.

I firmly believe that religion is the worst mistake that humanity has ever made, and I wonder where we would be now, had it never come about.

Is it not correct to combat that with which you disagree?

Prove it, then.
I've pointed out the flaws in everything you've offered thus far...

Depends what you mean by "us".

If you mean you and me specifically, then yes - our parents are the entities that put us into existence.

If you mean humanity in general, and the universe in even more general, then no - why would I?

By us I mean mankind and then everything that is not the entity that ultimately put us and everything in existence.

I say ultimately God.

And you Crackers, what entity ultimately put us in existence, but not God?
 
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