How to reconcile a notorious contradictory doctrine.

shnarkle

Well-known member
I repeatedly run into people who claim that the Royal law that all Christians keep has nothing to do with the commandments that were given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. If that is the case, then how do they reconcile some of these most notorious contradictions? I have listed them below, but also pointed out that they are not contradictions at all because they are NOT referring to the same law at all. In other words, the commandments should never be conflated with the "law that was added because of transgressions"(Gal. 3:19) of the commandments.

What follows below distinguishes and explains how to reconcile this confusion that is so pervasive in modern Christianity. If anyone wishes to persist in this confusion, I would be interested in seeing how you reconcile or identify one with the other.



THE GREAT MORAL LAW
1. Called the "Law of the Lord" (Isa. 5:24).
2. Called "the Royal Law" (James 2:8,10-12).
(At the time James was writing, the Old Testament was considered the only Scripture.)
3. Will be the standard in the Judgment (Ja. 2:10-12; Rom. 2:12,13; Eccl. 12:13,14).
4. Written with the finger of God, on stone (Deut. 4:13; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 32:16).
5. Placed inside of the Ark in the Sanctuary (Ex. 40:20).
6. Points out sin (Romans 7:7). A mirror (James 1:23).
7. Where there is no law, there is no sin therefore the law existed before sin. (1 John. 3:4; Rom. 4:15). Lucifer sinned when he broke God’s law.
8. Is not burdensome (1 John 5:3). Called "the law of liberty" (James 2:12).
9. Is "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12).
10. "Till heaven and earth pass away, no part will be done away with or changed (Matt. 5:18)
11. Is perfect (Psalm 19:7; Romans 7:12).
12. Is "established" (Romans 3:31).
13. Is "the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:13; John 15:10.
14. Is built upon principles of supreme love for God and love for our fellow man (Ja. 2:8-12; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).
15. Is written in our hearts by the Spirit of Christ when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour (Heb. 8:8-10; Rom. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:3; Jer. 31:33,34).
16. Carries a promise ( Jer. 31:33,34; Gal. 3:29).
17. Converts the soul (Psalm 19:7).


THE CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Was called the "law of offerings and sacrifices." (Heb 9:9, Lev. 7:37-38).
3. Judges no man (Col. 2:14-16).
4. Written by Moses in a book (2 Chron 35:12).
5. Placed in a pocket on the outside of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26).
6. Symbolized Christ’s Act of sacrifice, and work of atonement (John 1 29,36).
7. Was added "because of sin" (Gal. 3:19).
8. Was a "yoke of bondage". (Gal. 5:1, Acts 15:10).
9. Was "carnal" or "fleshly". (Heb. 7:16).
10. Was taken away (Heb. 10:9), annulled (Heb. 7:18), abolished (Eph. 2:15), made obsolete (Heb. 8:13), changed (Heb. 7:12).
11. Was a "shadow" of the real "things to come" (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:9).
12. Is "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).
13."Let no man judge you in regard to ... a festival or a new moon or (ceremonial) sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16-17).
14.Is a beautiful prophecy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and Heavenly mediation.
15.
16.
17. "Made nothing perfect" (Heb. 7:19; Heb. 9:9).
 

TibiasDad

Active member
I repeatedly run into people who claim that the Royal law that all Christians keep has nothing to do with the commandments that were given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. If that is the case, then how do they reconcile some of these most notorious contradictions? I have listed them below, but also pointed out that they are not contradictions at all because they are NOT referring to the same law at all. In other words, the commandments should never be conflated with the "law that was added because of transgressions"(Gal. 3:19) of the commandments.

What follows below distinguishes and explains how to reconcile this confusion that is so pervasive in modern Christianity. If anyone wishes to persist in this confusion, I would be interested in seeing how you reconcile or identify one with the other.



THE GREAT MORAL LAW
1. Called the "Law of the Lord" (Isa. 5:24).
2. Called "the Royal Law" (James 2:8,10-12).
(At the time James was writing, the Old Testament was considered the only Scripture.)
3. Will be the standard in the Judgment (Ja. 2:10-12; Rom. 2:12,13; Eccl. 12:13,14).
4. Written with the finger of God, on stone (Deut. 4:13; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 32:16).
5. Placed inside of the Ark in the Sanctuary (Ex. 40:20).
6. Points out sin (Romans 7:7). A mirror (James 1:23).
7. Where there is no law, there is no sin therefore the law existed before sin. (1 John. 3:4; Rom. 4:15). Lucifer sinned when he broke God’s law.
8. Is not burdensome (1 John 5:3). Called "the law of liberty" (James 2:12).
9. Is "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12).
10. "Till heaven and earth pass away, no part will be done away with or changed (Matt. 5:18)
11. Is perfect (Psalm 19:7; Romans 7:12).
12. Is "established" (Romans 3:31).
13. Is "the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:13; John 15:10.
14. Is built upon principles of supreme love for God and love for our fellow man (Ja. 2:8-12; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).
15. Is written in our hearts by the Spirit of Christ when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour (Heb. 8:8-10; Rom. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:3; Jer. 31:33,34).
16. Carries a promise ( Jer. 31:33,34; Gal. 3:29).
17. Converts the soul (Psalm 19:7).


THE CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Was called the "law of offerings and sacrifices." (Heb 9:9, Lev. 7:37-38).
3. Judges no man (Col. 2:14-16).
4. Written by Moses in a book (2 Chron 35:12).
5. Placed in a pocket on the outside of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26).
6. Symbolized Christ’s Act of sacrifice, and work of atonement (John 1 29,36).
7. Was added "because of sin" (Gal. 3:19).
8. Was a "yoke of bondage". (Gal. 5:1, Acts 15:10).
9. Was "carnal" or "fleshly". (Heb. 7:16).
10. Was taken away (Heb. 10:9), annulled (Heb. 7:18), abolished (Eph. 2:15), made obsolete (Heb. 8:13), changed (Heb. 7:12).
11. Was a "shadow" of the real "things to come" (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:9).
12. Is "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).
13."Let no man judge you in regard to ... a festival or a new moon or (ceremonial) sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16-17).
14.Is a beautiful prophecy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and Heavenly mediation.
15.
16.
17. "Made nothing perfect" (Heb. 7:19; Heb. 9:9).

I will look at this closer later on today sometime when I'm not so tired.


Doug
 
C

Chuckz

Guest
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Yep, no one is justified by the law. Only those who are conformed to Christ by God's grace through Christ's faith implanted in the new creature can then be justified.

The fact is that the law never did justify the law. It is the fallacy of the Non Sequitur to assume that just because a false purpose has been revealed that the true purpose is also done away with it.
 

Woody50

Active member
I repeatedly run into people who claim that the Royal law that all Christians keep has nothing to do with the commandments that were given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. If that is the case, then how do they reconcile some of these most notorious contradictions? I have listed them below, but also pointed out that they are not contradictions at all because they are NOT referring to the same law at all. In other words, the commandments should never be conflated with the "law that was added because of transgressions"(Gal. 3:19) of the commandments.

What follows below distinguishes and explains how to reconcile this confusion that is so pervasive in modern Christianity. If anyone wishes to persist in this confusion, I would be interested in seeing how you reconcile or identify one with the other.
We Christians don't, and cannot, keep the Law. Yes. It's the same Law.

There is no confusion. The Law was given to show our sinfulness (Romans 3:20, 5:20, 7:28).
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
We Christians don't, and cannot, keep the Law. Yes. It's the same Law.

Prove it. Please look at the different columns to see the blatant contradictions. I am asking that you reconcile them. Assuming what you want to prove doesn't prove what you assume. It is the fallacy of Begging the Question.
There is no confusion.
Then how is it a burden and not a burden. How does it judge all men, and simultaneously judge no one. How can it be for our benefit, and against us at the same time? etc. etc. etc. etc.? The difference is in that one must be kept to live while the other one is the result of transgressions which will only kill.
The Law was given to show our sinfulness (Romans 3:20, 5:20, 7:28).
The law "IS spiritual, just, holy," and most of all "ESTABLISHED". Therefore when Paul refers to it being done away, he clearly can't be referring to the same law.
 

TibiasDad

Active member
The fact is that the law never did justify the law. It is the fallacy of the Non Sequitur to assume that just because a false purpose has been revealed that the true purpose is also done away with it.
If the negative purpose is "to reveal sin to be utterly sinful", then what is the positive purpose that we are allegedly doing away with?

Doug
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
If the negative purpose is "to reveal sin to be utterly sinful", then what is the positive purpose that we are allegedly doing away with?

Doug
Let's look at what Paul says in context.

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

What's the difference between serving the letter verses serving in the Spirit? Serving according to the letter relied upon the flesh to keep it, whereas serving in the Spirit relies upon God to keep it. Note that being delivered from the law is not the obligation, but the penalty of the law which is what kills. The penalty for sin is death. The penalty for transgressing God's law is death. Serving God in Spirit is life eternal, and that has nothing to do with transgressing God's laws, and everything to do with keeping them. That is how "you shall live".

"7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

He didn't know lust until he BROKE the law. Do you see the difference between keeping the law verses breaking the law?

"8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment,"

Sin??? That means BREAKING the commandment. He's not talking about keeping the commandments here.

" wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."

If there is no law against adultery, then it is perfectly acceptable to engage in adultery. The fact is that there is a law against adultery, and one couldn't transgress it if it didn't exist. It does exist, and it existed before one could break it.


"10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

He is explicitly referring to BREAKING the commandments. He is not talking about keeping them. There is no law against keeping the commandments.

"12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid."


How much more clear does he have to be??? Did God give commandments so that they could be broken? Of course not.

" But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Do you see that he is "under sin"? He is under the penalty of the law because of transgressing the law, not for keeping the law.

"for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

This is the Old Testament. Moses gathered the children of Israel together and set before them blessings and curses. It was up to them to keep God's law to the best of their ability. Paul points out that relying upon their own will was a recipe for failure. To succeed, one must rely upon the promises of God. No faith on our part is necessary at all.

"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but GOD IS FAITHFUL, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

So how does he make this way available???

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

See the difference yet? Those who walk after the flesh can only fail. To try is to fail. There can be no condemnation for those who are in Christ because there can be no sin in Christ. Those who are in Christ are a new creation created for good works, not to sin. They can't sin. Again, John's letters contrast the difference between those who abide in Christ and those who don't.

"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

The law of sin and death is NOT the commandments! Paul just pointed out that it was ordained to life, and can only become a law of sin and death through TRANSGRESSING the law. Sin is defined as transgressing the law.

"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,"

Did you catch that???? The law can't do anything. It can't be a guide, tutor, schoolmaster, etc.

" God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Again, he is explicitly talking about TRANSGRESSING the law. That's what sin is.

"4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Who's fulfilling the law? We are. This is not some new law. This is the same law that is referred throughout the entire bible. The Mosaic law.

"5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

The carnal mind sins. That's all it can do, and sin kills. Keeping the law doesn't kill. Keeping the law is "life and peace".

Now which one are you? Are you subject to the law? No? Then you are at enmity against God.

"8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

The evil inclination is dead. Dead people can't sin.

"11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

This is not in the future tense, but the present. The spirit dwells in those who walk after the spirit, and they don't sin.

"33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

And God justifies "the doers of the law" They are not justified by the law. They are not justified by keeping the law. The doers of the law are not justified by doing the law. God justifies them, and consequently, they are a new creation, created to keep the law.

"34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Intercession for sin, and one cannot sin against laws that no longer exist. Intercession through Christ's sacrifice which does away with the sacrificial system, not the commandments. Under the New Covenant, the commandments are kept so it makes no sense to claim that they're done away with. One cannot keep commandments that no longer exist.
 

TibiasDad

Active member
Let's look at what Paul says in context.

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

What's the difference between serving the letter verses serving in the Spirit? Serving according to the letter relied upon the flesh to keep it, whereas serving in the Spirit relies upon God to keep it. Note that being delivered from the law is not the obligation, but the penalty of the law which is what kills. The penalty for sin is death. The penalty for transgressing God's law is death. Serving God in Spirit is life eternal, and that has nothing to do with transgressing God's laws, and everything to do with keeping them. That is how "you shall live".

"7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

He didn't know lust until he BROKE the law. Do you see the difference between keeping the law verses breaking the law?

"8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment,"

Sin??? That means BREAKING the commandment. He's not talking about keeping the commandments here.

" wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."

If there is no law against adultery, then it is perfectly acceptable to engage in adultery. The fact is that there is a law against adultery, and one couldn't transgress it if it didn't exist. It does exist, and it existed before one could break it.


"10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

He is explicitly referring to BREAKING the commandments. He is not talking about keeping them. There is no law against keeping the commandments.

"12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid."


How much more clear does he have to be??? Did God give commandments so that they could be broken? Of course not.

" But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Do you see that he is "under sin"? He is under the penalty of the law because of transgressing the law, not for keeping the law.

"for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

This is the Old Testament. Moses gathered the children of Israel together and set before them blessings and curses. It was up to them to keep God's law to the best of their ability. Paul points out that relying upon their own will was a recipe for failure. To succeed, one must rely upon the promises of God. No faith on our part is necessary at all.

"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but GOD IS FAITHFUL, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

So how does he make this way available???

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

See the difference yet? Those who walk after the flesh can only fail. To try is to fail. There can be no condemnation for those who are in Christ because there can be no sin in Christ. Those who are in Christ are a new creation created for good works, not to sin. They can't sin. Again, John's letters contrast the difference between those who abide in Christ and those who don't.

"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

The law of sin and death is NOT the commandments! Paul just pointed out that it was ordained to life, and can only become a law of sin and death through TRANSGRESSING the law. Sin is defined as transgressing the law.

"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,"

Did you catch that???? The law can't do anything. It can't be a guide, tutor, schoolmaster, etc.

" God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Again, he is explicitly talking about TRANSGRESSING the law. That's what sin is.

"4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Who's fulfilling the law? We are. This is not some new law. This is the same law that is referred throughout the entire bible. The Mosaic law.

"5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

The carnal mind sins. That's all it can do, and sin kills. Keeping the law doesn't kill. Keeping the law is "life and peace".

Now which one are you? Are you subject to the law? No? Then you are at enmity against God.

"8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

The evil inclination is dead. Dead people can't sin.

"11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

This is not in the future tense, but the present. The spirit dwells in those who walk after the spirit, and they don't sin.

"33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

And God justifies "the doers of the law" They are not justified by the law. They are not justified by keeping the law. The doers of the law are not justified by doing the law. God justifies them, and consequently, they are a new creation, created to keep the law.

"34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Intercession for sin, and one cannot sin against laws that no longer exist. Intercession through Christ's sacrifice which does away with the sacrificial system, not the commandments. Under the New Covenant, the commandments are kept so it makes no sense to claim that they're done away with. One cannot keep commandments that no longer exist.
It would appear, due to your many words, that you either do not have an answer and are loathed to admit it, thereby providing a small thesis as a smoke screen to avert the eye from seeing the fact that you don't know, or that you find it difficult to answer a question in an economic manner, perhaps a brief two or three paragraphs with a scripture or two in support of your assertion.

For instance, my assessment and or answer to the question would be something like this:

The purpose of the law, is singular: To prove the deadly and destructive nature of sin by demonstrating the inability of man to keep it as it should be kept, and as we should be able to keep it, if we are indeed, uncorrupted by such a destructive force.
Romans 3:20, 5:20, 7:28

Now, is this purpose of the law negative or positive? It is both! It is negative because it reveals that we cannot, in our natural state, overcome this power, and ultimately succumb to its demands and effects. It is also positive, because it reveals our spiritual condition and points to the need of a cure and creates a longing for such.

Thus, the law is holy and good because it demonstrates that we are not, and that grace allows our eyes to be opened to the truth of our condition, which allows the gospel to present the remedy for the ailment that the law reveals in us.


Doug
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
It would appear, due to your many words, that you either do not have an answer and are loathed to admit it, thereby providing a small thesis as a smoke screen to avert the eye from seeing the fact that you don't know, or that you find it difficult to answer a question in an economic manner, perhaps a brief two or three paragraphs with a scripture or two in support of your assertion.

For instance, my assessment and or answer to the question would be something like this:

The purpose of the law, is singular: To prove the deadly and destructive nature of sin by demonstrating the inability of man to keep it as it should be kept, and as we should be able to keep it, if we are indeed, uncorrupted by such a destructive force.
Romans 3:20, 5:20, 7:28

Now, is this purpose of the law negative or positive? It is both! It is negative because it reveals that we cannot, in our natural state, overcome this power, and ultimately succumb to its demands and effects. It is also positive, because it reveals our spiritual condition and points to the need of a cure and creates a longing for such.

Thus, the law is holy and good because it demonstrates that we are not, and that grace allows our eyes to be opened to the truth of our condition, which allows the gospel to present the remedy for the ailment that the law reveals in us.


Doug
Well put! Now kindly address the OP. Short enough for ya? Note that there are numerous citations from scripture as well.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
When you answer my question, I would be happy to discuss OP in more detail!

Doug
I did answer your question. I pointed out that you are operating under false assumptions. Being freed from the penalty is not equivalent to being freed from the obligation of the law which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with making vain attempts to justify oneself.

If you don't want to address the OP, I understand. I was the same way when I first began to look at it. Seeking the truth requires courage, and when one sees that their cherished doctrines are contradictory, the ramifications are horrific. Go with God. Be blessed.
 

TibiasDad

Active member
I did answer your question.

Please quote where you answered the question, "what is the is the positive side of the law?", because it was hard to see in your response. I don't think you did!


I pointed out that you are operating under false assumptions. Being freed from the penalty is not equivalent to being freed from the obligation of the law which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with making vain attempts to justify oneself.

Since I have not asserted that I am free from obedience to the commands of God, you must be referring to someone else. I only assert that the new covenant is different from the former one, with different rules that not only supersede the old ones, they completely fulfill all the righteous requirements of these laws.

I am forgiven for the sins of my past, and thereby justified. Thus, I am free from guilt and the necessity of punishment. However, if I sin, the condemnation of such will
follow, sans repentance, and I will again be condemned-- especially if I continue to do it! Thus, I am still obligated to follow the Spirit/do God's commands, instead of the sinful nature/being a transgresser.

As an aside, I believe you have conflated the discussion on the other thread with this one.



If you don't want to address the OP, I understand. I was the same way when I first began to look at it. Seeking the truth requires courage, and when one sees that their cherished doctrines are contradictory, the ramifications are horrific. Go with God. Be blessed.

As I said, I will gladly discuss my thoughts on this OP when I get a straight answer to my question!


Doug
 

TibiasDad

Active member
Let's look at what Paul says in context.

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Let's start with a better translation:

But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.
Rom 7:6 NET


What's the difference between serving the letter verses serving in the Spirit? Serving according to the letter relied upon the flesh to keep it, whereas serving in the Spirit relies upon God to keep it.

Wrong! The difference between the law and the Spirit is dying to the law to be free to wed a new "husband" and live under a new master. Dying changes everything! That is the difference, because it is only by death, our death, that "we have been released from the law" that bound us, just as the law of marriage binds a wife/husband to their spouse as long as they are alive, but if there is a death, the remaining spouse is freed from the law and is free to marry another.

Moreover, flesh is is not even mentioned in verse 6, and flesh in the context of being able to sin or not sin, is a reference to the sinful nature, the old man that was crucified, not to who is doing the action of obedience. It is not a question of me doing or God doing, it is a question of who am I following and obeying, the desires of the flesh/sinful nature or the Spirit!


Note that being delivered from the law is not the obligation, but the penalty of the law which is what kills. The penalty for sin is death. The penalty for transgressing God's law is death. Serving God in Spirit is life eternal, and that has nothing to do with transgressing God's laws, and everything to do with keeping them. That is how "you shall live".

Being delivered is from the control of sin, and the power of sin is the law! (1Cor 15:56)
We are "released from the law that binds" (7:6), "the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2), "in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Rom 8:4)

Your argument is full of eisegesis, reading the elements of your argument into the texts to make it say what you want it to say. Sometimes you say things that are not necessarily bad or even wrong, but the scripture you reference do not make these arguments. I think you are smarter that that! You are quite obviously and intelligent person, but your hermeneutics are lacking. We don't need to force truths into passages that don't deal with these truths. I don't need to force the truths about fidelity in marriage into John 3:16 because John 3 has nothing to do with marital faithfulness. Romans 7 has nothing to do with whether obedience to the Levitical regulations are valid or if their is a conflation of the moral law and ceremonial regulations.


Doug
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
I repeatedly run into people who claim that the Royal law that all Christians keep has nothing to do with the commandments that were given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. If that is the case, then how do they reconcile some of these most notorious contradictions? I have listed them below, but also pointed out that they are not contradictions at all because they are NOT referring to the same law at all. In other words, the commandments should never be conflated with the "law that was added because of transgressions"(Gal. 3:19) of the commandments.

What follows below distinguishes and explains how to reconcile this confusion that is so pervasive in modern Christianity. If anyone wishes to persist in this confusion, I would be interested in seeing how you reconcile or identify one with the other.



THE GREAT MORAL LAW
1. Called the "Law of the Lord" (Isa. 5:24).
2. Called "the Royal Law" (James 2:8,10-12).
(At the time James was writing, the Old Testament was considered the only Scripture.)
3. Will be the standard in the Judgment (Ja. 2:10-12; Rom. 2:12,13; Eccl. 12:13,14).
4. Written with the finger of God, on stone (Deut. 4:13; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 32:16).
5. Placed inside of the Ark in the Sanctuary (Ex. 40:20).
6. Points out sin (Romans 7:7). A mirror (James 1:23).
7. Where there is no law, there is no sin therefore the law existed before sin. (1 John. 3:4; Rom. 4:15). Lucifer sinned when he broke God’s law.
8. Is not burdensome (1 John 5:3). Called "the law of liberty" (James 2:12).
9. Is "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12).
10. "Till heaven and earth pass away, no part will be done away with or changed (Matt. 5:18)
11. Is perfect (Psalm 19:7; Romans 7:12).
12. Is "established" (Romans 3:31).
13. Is "the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:13; John 15:10.
14. Is built upon principles of supreme love for God and love for our fellow man (Ja. 2:8-12; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).
15. Is written in our hearts by the Spirit of Christ when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour (Heb. 8:8-10; Rom. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:3; Jer. 31:33,34).
16. Carries a promise ( Jer. 31:33,34; Gal. 3:29).
17. Converts the soul (Psalm 19:7).


THE CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Was called the "law of offerings and sacrifices." (Heb 9:9, Lev. 7:37-38).
3. Judges no man (Col. 2:14-16).
4. Written by Moses in a book (2 Chron 35:12).
5. Placed in a pocket on the outside of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26).
6. Symbolized Christ’s Act of sacrifice, and work of atonement (John 1 29,36).
7. Was added "because of sin" (Gal. 3:19).
8. Was a "yoke of bondage". (Gal. 5:1, Acts 15:10).
9. Was "carnal" or "fleshly". (Heb. 7:16).
10. Was taken away (Heb. 10:9), annulled (Heb. 7:18), abolished (Eph. 2:15), made obsolete (Heb. 8:13), changed (Heb. 7:12).
11. Was a "shadow" of the real "things to come" (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:9).
12. Is "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).
13."Let no man judge you in regard to ... a festival or a new moon or (ceremonial) sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16-17).
14.Is a beautiful prophecy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and Heavenly mediation.
15.
16.
17. "Made nothing perfect" (Heb. 7:19; Heb. 9:9).
There was the Law of Moses.

There is the Law of Christ.

And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given through Moses,
but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. " John 1:16-17​

The Law of Moses. The believers had no indwelling Holy Spirit to overpower their own flesh as to conform them to God's righteous actions. So, they needed to live by the letter of the Law to keep themselves from living by their sin nature. They needed to force themselves not to do what the Law said was wrong, and force themselves to do what it said was right to do.

The Law of Christ is that we today should live by. The Church is not the nation of Israel.

Live by means of understanding the filling of the Spirit, which is His enabling power of grace we have been freely given. And, in such a state of grace enabling, to learn to think and walk in Truth. His Word is to keep out thoughts away from the cosmic thinking of the world, and to know doctrine to think with while grace is controlling our sin nature from reigning.

There are two different types of Law.

Moses - for those without God's grace to control their flesh. Knowing the Law they needed to will themselves not to do what the Law said was wrong, and will themselves to do what the Law said was right. It was willpower and obedience. No freedom to simply do as they should by the enabling of grace power from God.

Jesus - Grace power! Suddenly we find ourselves not desiring to do what is wrong, and desiring to do what is right. No longer willing and forcing ourselves into conformity of the mandates of the Law by following the letter of the Law!

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18​


Moses' Law could not provide the grace we are now told to walk in! We are a new creation in Christ Jesus! Not the old way.


But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will
worship the Father in spirit and truth;
for the Father is seeking such
to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship
in spirit and truth.
"
John 4:23-24​


No more under Law. Those who believe that is what we need are suffering from a form of chronic carnality. They do not understand how to be filled with the Spirit. To make matters worse, along come the Pentecostals, telling them that to be Spirit filled one must act like a mindless person lacking all common sense. Its Satan pitting one false system against another false system.



God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

(not Law)
 

TibiasDad

Active member
I repeatedly run into people who claim that the Royal law that all Christians keep has nothing to do with the commandments that were given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. If that is the case, then how do they reconcile some of these most notorious contradictions? I have listed them below, but also pointed out that they are not contradictions at all because they are NOT referring to the same law at all. In other words, the commandments should never be conflated with the "law that was added because of transgressions"(Gal. 3:19) of the commandments.

What follows below distinguishes and explains how to reconcile this confusion that is so pervasive in modern Christianity. If anyone wishes to persist in this confusion, I would be interested in seeing how you reconcile or identify one with the other.



THE GREAT MORAL LAW
1. Called the "Law of the Lord" (Isa. 5:24).
2. Called "the Royal Law" (James 2:8,10-12).
(At the time James was writing, the Old Testament was considered the only Scripture.)
3. Will be the standard in the Judgment (Ja. 2:10-12; Rom. 2:12,13; Eccl. 12:13,14).
4. Written with the finger of God, on stone (Deut. 4:13; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 32:16).
5. Placed inside of the Ark in the Sanctuary (Ex. 40:20).
6. Points out sin (Romans 7:7). A mirror (James 1:23).
7. Where there is no law, there is no sin therefore the law existed before sin. (1 John. 3:4; Rom. 4:15). Lucifer sinned when he broke God’s law.
8. Is not burdensome (1 John 5:3). Called "the law of liberty" (James 2:12).
9. Is "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12).
10. "Till heaven and earth pass away, no part will be done away with or changed (Matt. 5:18)
11. Is perfect (Psalm 19:7; Romans 7:12).
12. Is "established" (Romans 3:31).
13. Is "the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:13; John 15:10.
14. Is built upon principles of supreme love for God and love for our fellow man (Ja. 2:8-12; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).
15. Is written in our hearts by the Spirit of Christ when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour (Heb. 8:8-10; Rom. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:3; Jer. 31:33,34).
16. Carries a promise ( Jer. 31:33,34; Gal. 3:29).
17. Converts the soul (Psalm 19:7).


THE CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Was called the "law of offerings and sacrifices." (Heb 9:9, Lev. 7:37-38).
3. Judges no man (Col. 2:14-16).
4. Written by Moses in a book (2 Chron 35:12).
5. Placed in a pocket on the outside of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26).
6. Symbolized Christ’s Act of sacrifice, and work of atonement (John 1 29,36).
7. Was added "because of sin" (Gal. 3:19).
8. Was a "yoke of bondage". (Gal. 5:1, Acts 15:10).
9. Was "carnal" or "fleshly". (Heb. 7:16).
10. Was taken away (Heb. 10:9), annulled (Heb. 7:18), abolished (Eph. 2:15), made obsolete (Heb. 8:13), changed (Heb. 7:12).
11. Was a "shadow" of the real "things to come" (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:9).
12. Is "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).
13."Let no man judge you in regard to ... a festival or a new moon or (ceremonial) sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16-17).
14.Is a beautiful prophecy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and Heavenly mediation.
15.
16.
17. "Made nothing perfect" (Heb. 7:19; Heb. 9:9).

"In other words, the commandments should never be conflated with the "law that was added because of transgressions"(Gal. 3:19) of the commandments."

Herein lies the first, and primary error that leads the entire arguments astray. If I understand you correctly, "the law added because of transgression", in your mind, is the ceremonial law and not the moral law, but the context of Gal 3:19 denies this premise. Gal 3:17 identifies the law as that which was "introduced 430 years" after Abraham, which refers to Sinai the Ten Commandments.

Doug
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
There was the Law of Moses.

There is the Law of Christ.

Could you reconcile what I posted? Nobody ever has. The law of Moses is the commandments which are identical to the law of Christ. Again, I provided an in depth outline showing that you can't distinguish them without contradicting yourself.
 

TibiasDad

Active member
I repeatedly run into people who claim that the Royal law that all Christians keep has nothing to do with the commandments that were given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai.

The problem is, that scripture defines the Royal law specifically:

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. James 2:8

This means that James, the physical brother of Jesus, was referring to, not the ten commandments, not the Levitical law as a whole, but the Essential, all encompassing law, of the Shema and the corresponding edict relative to human interaction, Lev 19:18 that Jesus, his brother, said was the premier law; the law on which every other law hangs!


Doug
 
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