How would you feel?

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
They are nether perfect nor accurate equivalences.

Capital punishment is the pre-established consequence of taking another's life. The human being killed knows this consequence exists, and they know it before they commit the act precipitating their punishment. The human fetus does not now of the law, has not broken any law, and has not taken another's life. The murderer is guilty, and the fetus is innocent. Furthermore, the murderer is presumed innocent until proven guilty, able to make defense for themselves to prove their innocent (and thereby spare their life), and the crime(s) must meet specific criteria including but not limited to intent, premeditation, and willful disregard for the victim's life. I have endeavored to stay away from such comparisons in my posts because of the rhetoric associated with calling mothers and doctors murderers, but that is the logical consequence of such comparisons.

Comparing abortion to capital punishment is woefully flawed; it is NOT a "perfectly accurate" comparison.

Assuming you mean noncombatants with the comparison to war, it is universally recognized war is a violation of the right to life. This violation of the right to life is one of the chief reasons wars should be avoided, not supported. For the combatants, they've all made a prior decision to put at risk their own life; if they are soldiers then they have done so contractually. They are also supplied with the means to defend themselves. None of this applies to the human fetus but the right to live. Therefore, comparisons with war are arguments against abortion, not for it.

Comparing abortion to capital punishment is woefully flawed; it is NOT a "perfectly accurate" comparison.

Self-defense? The fetal human is not provided an opportunity to defend itself. The prolife position is very much about defending those who cannot defend themselves. The abortionist and the woman seeking the abortion are are the instigators in a situation in which the fetus' life is put fatally at risk and without option for defense.

Comparing abortion to self-defense is woefully flawed; it is NOT a "perfectly accurate" comparison.

In the case of assisted suicide it is the human taking his/her own life making the decision and proactively acting on their own (situational) behalf to take their own behalf. No one asks the fetus if it wants to be killed (they instead make comparisons like you have to justify the killing), and the fetus is not initiating, proactively following through and collaborating with their own demise.

Comparing abortion to self-defense is woefully flawed; it is NOT a "perfectly accurate" comparison.

None of the examples asserted are equivalent. Most of them (war being the sole possible exception) are also arguments of extremes, and not normative behavior. About 45k are killed in the US are murdered in the US each year. They yearly average for abortion is about 1 million per year (it is currently down to about 600k). Suicide kills about the same amount (45k); another 2,000 can be added to that number for assisted suicides. In the last 45 years the annual average of those killed via capital punishment is about 30. In other words, all of the examples provided (again, with the possible exception of war) prove not only to be false equivalences but also argument from extremes. Furthermore, ALL of these behaviors, including war, are legally and sociologically considered deviance. Arguments from extremes are always and everywhere fallacious.

So not only is it appropriate to ask if this comparison is intended to say abortion is killing, but it is also appropriate, given the evidence of the case you've asserted, to ask if you are intentionally making an argument ad absurdum. We might also ask if you mean to say a pregnant woman and the fetal human child are at war, or that the fetal human is having war waged against it by the abortionist, the abortion industry (a $5 billion industry in the US), and/or the federal or state governments.



In other words, there are quite a lot of problems asserting those statistical, legal (and in some cases moral), normatively deviant behaviors as equivalences. As I noted with another poster: these are not rationales for abortion; they are rationalizations for abortion.

The fetal human has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The pregnant woman also has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The fundamental argument in the abortion debate is about whether the right to life is subordinate or superior to the right to pursue happiness. Because there cannot be any pursuit of happiness, or pursuit of a "quality of life" absent the existence of life, the right to life is necessarily preeminent to quality of life. Arguments from extremes (whether they be statistical, legal, or moral extremes) are logically fallacious and therefore not a reasonable rational basis for sound legal/social policy.

Just think about it.
This is all nonsense. It doesn't matter about known consequences, it doesn't matter about universal recognition of war. The commandment says thou shalt not kill. It doesn't have a little asterisk next to it and down the bottom of the page say, in small type, "except if the bloke knew the consequences of his actions before he did them or if it's a war". It doesn't say "but it's okay if you only do it to a few people a year. It says that though shalt not kill. The prohibition is absolute. Killing in war, executing a criminal, both in direct violation of the commandment. As direct as you can get. Far moreso than abortion because neither you nor anybody else has even attempted to show that thou shalt not kill includes fetus.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
It's not my job to defend somebody else's comparisons.
Not asking you to do so. YOU were the one who posted the comparison between "condemned criminals." Not somebody else. It's right here in Post #180 for any and all to read. That fact is objectively verifiable.

So too is the fact this is now the third post in which clarifying and explaining the comparison topically has been avoided.

In response to the statement, "All life has a right to exist," YOUR response was, "Condemned criminals do not," and you were asked, "Am I to understand your post to imply abortion is a death sentence?" to which your response was, "My point was that the right to life is not inviolable in your paradigm," and I have since demonstrated you have my position incorrect and are arguing a strawman, comparisons between capital punishment and abortion are not equivalent, and arguments from extremes are inherently fallacious.

So....

You gonna prove capital punishment is germane or concede the point?
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
YOU were the one who posted the comparison between "condemned criminals."
It was not a comparison.
It was a list of exceptions, to which I add abortion.

I don't compare any on the list to each other; they are all exceptions in their own right.
You gonna prove capital punishment is germane or concede the point?
Capital punishment is a revelvant rebuttal to "all life has a right to exist".

if you support war, self-defence, and capital punishment, then not all life has a right to exist.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
Capital punishment is a revelvant rebuttal to "all life has a right to exist".
It is not.

The constituent circumstances of capital punishment make the comparison logically invalid. The explanation why has been provided and you have been asked four times now to explain how or why - in light of the reasons why the relevance is incorrect - how it is you continue to assert your position, the position you have clearly asserted and then denied having asserted. Strawmen, false equivalences, arguments from extremes, and other fallacies continue to be asserted in avoidance of the argument capital punishment is relevant.

The condemned criminal has willfully abdicated his right to life. The aborted human fetus has not.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
It is not.

The constituent circumstances of capital punishment make the comparison logically invalid.
What comparison?

You said "all life has a right to exist", and I pointed out a counterexample.
The condemned criminal has willfully abdicated his right to life. The aborted human fetus has not.
Presumes that a foetus has the right not just to life, but to life inside an unwilling woman.
Where abortion is legal, it does not.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Butting in again with a comment that has nothing to do with anything being said in the conversation? You need to stop following me around and obsessively posting to me.
Welcome to my world. The best option is to treat him like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Once you have cut his arms and legs of, just move on and ignore him.
 

mikeT

Well-known member
All life has a right to exist. That is what is enshrined in the US Constitution.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Ah, I see the problem.

You meant "all American life has a right to exist"...
 

BMS

Well-known member
According to some privileged white men who lived 250 years ago, several of whom kept slaves.
Well if you want racism, slavery has existed throughout history and the sex slave uncovered in Rotherham, Bradford, Blackburn etc in the last few years was middle eastern Muslim.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
Let me know when you can show that the commandment was meant to include fetuses.
Let me know when you can stay on topic because this op is not about Exodus 20:13. I have not asserted the verse as a measure of the topic and you should not have assumed otherwise. Besides, proof-texting a single verse is always a fail, both exegetically and logically.
 
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