I fail to see what point you're making. It was standard practice for Arians and Catholic to criticize each other. It still is.
Hundredfold Martyrs
- Thread starter Steven Avery
- Start date
Steven Avery
Well-known member
Exactly. And many others as well.
That was why I was surprised when you made a bit point about heavenly witnesses sources being critiqued.
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
Very interesting. Good work.
I'm struggling to find time to look into this at the moment (you know, work, family etc) but I'll try to look into it further when I can.
Has anybody found out if there's any English translations of this text (meaning the whole text obviously) available anywhere?
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
What's the deal Avery?
Where's the missing context? Why aren't you saying anything about it? Why aren't you defending your assumptions FROM THE CONTEXT?
FULL CONTEXT!
Why are your 100-Fold Martyr quotations divorced and separated from the writer's qualifying and defining context?
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TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
Ps-Cyprian, Sermo de centesima, sexagesima, tricesima, edited by Reitzenstein, dans ZNTW, 1914, 15,
● Certainly, whoever might be so inclined to accomplish the work of those six angels, he shall enjoy so much blessedness [fruitfulness] as the illustrious three, the Father and Son and Holy Spirit,
=========
...Therefore you who have learnt to receive God through virtuousness, observe his promise too, which said : Anyone not reborn from water and holy spirit, will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Therefore you who will long to arrive in the kingdom of heaven, do not cast out that spirit of renewal by your lustful living.[2]
...For He Himself [Christ] is a step in the ascent into heaven, for He Himself is the gate, Himself the entry into life, by whom in your redemption from the contagion of the world you have been spiritually bound by the Three Witnesses. This Trinity, therefore, increases by the Ten Words [i.e., multiplied by the 10 Commandments] so that the thirty-fold reward is completed. [i.e.,”the sum”that is 30 (3 multiplied by 10)].[3]
○ Latin:
1. utique qui se disposuerit ad [Line 239] persequendum opus illorum angelorum sex, percipiet fructus tam praeclaros [Line 240] tres, patrem et filium et spiritum sanctum
(p. 84, lines 240-242)
https://books.google.com/books?id=NNsMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA84
2. qui ergo deum per sanctimonium accipiendum didicisti, et promissum eius [Line 283] obserua, qui dixit: "Si quis non renatus fuerit ex aqua et spiritu sancto,[Line 284] non intrabit in regnum caelorum". qui ergo in regnum caelorum cupies [Line 285] peruenire, illum spiritum renouationis tuae lasciue uiuendo noli expellere.
( p. 84, lines 282-285)
3. ipse est enim gradus ascensionis in caelum, ipse est enim porta, ipse in- [Line 287] -troitus vitae, a quo in redemptione tua a mundi contagione tribus testimoniis [Line 288] spiritaliter sis religatus. trinitas ergo ista per decem verba adolescit, ut [Line 289] trecesima merces compleatur.
( p. 84, lines 286-289)
● For the Law of the Lord is hard and bitter, but it makes bitterness, in order that it might reveal sweetness. For also by John this is demonstrated, when the spirit hands over the book to the angel who broke the seals, saying:”Take the book and eat it up. And it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey.”This means: by the mouth of three witnesses it will be proved, that is: by the mouth of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit it will be confessed, because it is apparent that honey [Latin: mel] is written in three letters. For certainly, we also read honey [Latin: mel], constituted of three letters.
○ Latin: lex enim domini dura est et amara, [Line 349] <sed> amaritudinem facit, ut dulcedinem ostendat. nam et per Iohannem de- [Line 350] -monstravit, cum spiritus [PAGE 87] librum angelo sigilla solventi traderet dicens: ”Accipe [Line 351] librum et devora eum et amaritudinem faciet ventri tuo, sed in ore tuo erit [Line 352] dulce, tamquam mel.”(Rev 10:9) hoc est per os trium testium probari, id est per os [Line 353] patris et filii et spiritus sancti confiteri, quod mel tribus litteris constat scribi; [Line 354 nam et mel quidem legimus tribus litteris statui.
( p. 86-87, lines 348-352 )
https://books.google.com/books?id=NNsMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA86
===========================
Corrected version.
Line numbers all accurate, and the extra phrase about the kingdom of God taken out of incorrect duplicate spot.
Publication texts added, sometimes with added lines.
The one with water and spirit is just in for the Johannine connections, not specifically the heavenly witnesses.
This doesn't sound anything like Cyprian!
According to Tarmo Toom, in "Augustine in Context", there is no published English translation of either De singularitate clericorum or De centesima, as of 2017, despite Philip Sellew claiming to have done an (unpublished) English translation.
Interestingly, Augustine opposed the extreme views of the successors of the encratites, asserting no intrinsic superiority in celibacy, but only superiority in a celibate way of life. I'm not sure I can even concede that to him for, as always, "it all depends."
(Don't think Abraham or David would have been too pleased to have been told to live a celibate lifestyle.)
Possibly an indication that De centesima is even today perceived as dangerously heretical, despite Steven Avery alleging it is of the "Cyprian milieu."
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
There's a pronounced "the fleshly (carnal)" vs "the spiritual" throughout the text, which is characteristic of the language and titles of both the Gnostics and the Montanist's.
Steven Avery
Well-known member
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
The whole book revolves around interpretations of numbers (i.e. "hundredfold, sixtyfold, thirtyfold), reading eisegetical interpretations into the Scriptures that speak about these numbers.
Very much like the passage in Pseudo-Athansius DCA.
Very much like the passage in Pseudo-Athansius DCA.
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
The purpose of the book is also intended to promote a vision of Christian life, in which one steadily rises from the ranks of the faithful to the ascetic life, and from the ascetic life to the renunciation of life itself in martyrdom.
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
What we have is a case of Matthew 28:19 with one of the Law of Moses "at the mouth of three witnesses" texts again!
Why is it Mr Avery, that you (nor your translator) never told us that all three names in the phrase/clause "Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti" in the "Sermo de centesima, sexagesima, tricesima," Line 353 is in the genitive case, which, if honestly translated, should have three "of"'s, i.e. "of the ... and of ... and of"?
Not in the nominative case "Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus" as the Latin Comma.
This is slipped in slyly under the radar.
Granted there is an "of" with the Father, but notice how the "of" with the Son, and the "of" with the Holy Spirit is slyly missing in their translation.
Translator Jeroen Beekhuizen
(Correspondence with Avery, 28 October 2019)
"For the Law of the Lord is hard and bitter, but it makes bitterness, in order that it might reveal sweetness. For also by John this is demonstrated, when the spirit hands over the book to the angel who broke the seals, saying: ”Take the book and eat it up. And it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey.” This means: by the mouth of three witnesses it will be proved, that is: by the mouth of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit it will be confessed, because it is apparent that honey [Latin: mel] is written in three letters. For certainly, we also read honey [Latin: mel], constituted of three letters.
Compare:
Why is it Mr Avery, that you (nor your translator) never told us that all three names in the phrase/clause "Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti" in the "Sermo de centesima, sexagesima, tricesima," Line 353 is in the genitive case, which, if honestly translated, should have three "of"'s, i.e. "of the ... and of ... and of"?
Not in the nominative case "Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus" as the Latin Comma.
- Genitive case "Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti" (Ps-Cyprian)
- Genitive case "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Ps-Cyprian)
- Nominative case "Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus" (Comma)
- Nominative case "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"
This is slipped in slyly under the radar.
Pseudo-Cyprian of Carthage
"Sermo de centesima, sexagesima, tricesima," Edited by Reitzenstein, dans ZNTW, 1914.
Pages 86-87, Lines 348-352 (Modified slightly by me).
"lex enim Domini dura est et amara, [Line 349] <sed> amaritudinem facit, ut dulcedinem ostendat. nam et per Iohannem [Line 350] demonstravit, cum Spiritus [Page 87] librum angelo sigilla solventi traderet dicens: ”Accipe [Line 351] librum et devora eum et amaritudinem faciet ventri tuo, sed in ore tuo erit [Line 352] dulce, tamquam mel.” (Rev 10:9) hoc est per os trium testium probari, id est per os [Line 353] Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti confiteri, quod mel tribus litteris constat scribi; [Line 354] nam et mel quidem legimus tribus litteris statui.
"For the Law of the Lord is hard and bitter, but it makes bitterness, in order that it might reveal sweetness. Another example of this is shown through John, when the spirit hands over the book to the angel who broke the seals, saying: ”Take the book and eat it up. And it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey.” [Revelation 10:9] That is, "at the mouth of three witnesses," this is to be established, that is, through the mouth "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" [Matthew 28:19 (genitive case Latin)] it is to be confessed, because it is apparent that honey is written in three letters. For certainly, we also read honey, constituted of three letters."
This is nothing more than slight of hand in Avery's translation to make it look more like the Comma, rather than Matthew 28:19!"Sermo de centesima, sexagesima, tricesima," Edited by Reitzenstein, dans ZNTW, 1914.
Pages 86-87, Lines 348-352 (Modified slightly by me).
"lex enim Domini dura est et amara, [Line 349] <sed> amaritudinem facit, ut dulcedinem ostendat. nam et per Iohannem [Line 350] demonstravit, cum Spiritus [Page 87] librum angelo sigilla solventi traderet dicens: ”Accipe [Line 351] librum et devora eum et amaritudinem faciet ventri tuo, sed in ore tuo erit [Line 352] dulce, tamquam mel.” (Rev 10:9) hoc est per os trium testium probari, id est per os [Line 353] Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti confiteri, quod mel tribus litteris constat scribi; [Line 354] nam et mel quidem legimus tribus litteris statui.
"For the Law of the Lord is hard and bitter, but it makes bitterness, in order that it might reveal sweetness. Another example of this is shown through John, when the spirit hands over the book to the angel who broke the seals, saying: ”Take the book and eat it up. And it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey.” [Revelation 10:9] That is, "at the mouth of three witnesses," this is to be established, that is, through the mouth "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" [Matthew 28:19 (genitive case Latin)] it is to be confessed, because it is apparent that honey is written in three letters. For certainly, we also read honey, constituted of three letters."
Granted there is an "of" with the Father, but notice how the "of" with the Son, and the "of" with the Holy Spirit is slyly missing in their translation.
Translator Jeroen Beekhuizen
(Correspondence with Avery, 28 October 2019)
"For the Law of the Lord is hard and bitter, but it makes bitterness, in order that it might reveal sweetness. For also by John this is demonstrated, when the spirit hands over the book to the angel who broke the seals, saying: ”Take the book and eat it up. And it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey.” This means: by the mouth of three witnesses it will be proved, that is: by the mouth of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit it will be confessed, because it is apparent that honey [Latin: mel] is written in three letters. For certainly, we also read honey [Latin: mel], constituted of three letters.
Compare:
Clement of Alexandria
“Selections from Prophetic Writings” (Eclogae Propheticae) 13.1
Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων, ἐπὶ Πατρὸς καὶ Υἱοῦ καὶ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος,
ἐφ' ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν.
“Every verbal statement [Or: “matter” “point spoken”] is to be established upon the basis of [Or: “at the evidence of”] two and three witnesses,” [Deut. 19:15 LXX (Clause-B, paraphrased)] in the presence "of a Father and of a Son and of Holy Spirit," [Matthew 28:19 (Clause-B, articles omitted)] before whom, as witnesses and as helpers it is our duty to keep what are called 'the commandments'.”
“Selections from Prophetic Writings” (Eclogae Propheticae) 13.1
Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων, ἐπὶ Πατρὸς καὶ Υἱοῦ καὶ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος,
ἐφ' ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν.
“Every verbal statement [Or: “matter” “point spoken”] is to be established upon the basis of [Or: “at the evidence of”] two and three witnesses,” [Deut. 19:15 LXX (Clause-B, paraphrased)] in the presence "of a Father and of a Son and of Holy Spirit," [Matthew 28:19 (Clause-B, articles omitted)] before whom, as witnesses and as helpers it is our duty to keep what are called 'the commandments'.”
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TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
This section of the text has nothing to do with the Father, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit bearing witness about their own "one-ness" at all!
It's all about "honey" and "sweetness" and (surprise surprise) "three letters"!
Eisegesis again!
It's all about "honey" and "sweetness" and (surprise surprise) "three letters"!
Eisegesis again!
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"Corrected version" isn't really an accurate statement now, is it, Avery.
Here's the source you cited initially in this thread:
Reitzenstein (1914) Eine frühchristliche Schrift ZNTW
The full title is:
Eine frühchristliche Schrift von den dreierlei Früchten des christlichen Lebens (An early Christian treatise on the three fruits of the Christian life)
This is the work from which I provided the true page and line numbers, contra the ones you had, and this is the work in which I discovered your splicing together of phrases -- with 42 lines between them -- as if they were part of the same sentence!Then the source you provided, still in this thread, was:
Reitzenstein, dans ZNTW, 1914, 15
The third time was:
Reitzenstein, dans ZNTW, 1914, 15
And now, the latest source you direct us to in google books, after being busted on your crafty out of context and far and away separated citations, is from a completely different work!
Zeitschrift für die neutestamentliche Wissenschaft und die Kunde des Urchristentums, Volume 15 (Journal for New Testament scholarship and the knowledge of early Christianity)
So what is it you're up to here, Avery? You got busted on your original source so you went searching for a different source that still contained your ridiculous Hundredfold Martyr "witness?" Are you serious?
God will not hold you guiltless for such manipulation and deception.
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
Typo fix up.
Not in the nominative case "Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus" as the Latin Comma.
Not in the nominative case "Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus" as the Latin Comma.
- Genitive case "Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti" (Ps-Cyprian)
- Genitive case "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Ps-Cyprian)
- Nominative case "Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus" (Comma)
- Nominative case "the Father, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit" (Comma)
You haven't even read it, so how do you know what I'm talking about?
The scholars must be shaking in their boots.
II. THE OF CENTESIMA, SEXAGESIMA, TRICESIMA The treatise De centesima, sexagesima, tricesima brings us to the Judeo-Christian Latin apocalyptic of the second century.
First edited by Reitzenstein (ZNTW, 15, 1914, pp. 60-90), it was introduced in SPL, I, p. 53-67. Reitzenstein fixed him in the second century, in a Gnostic milieu, for doctrinal reasons.
.
.
What Cyprian seems to have done is plagarize bits of De Cent. for his more politically acceptable De habitu virginum, but making certain modifications: virgins substituted for ascetics (eunuchs). "But De Cent., speaks precisely of the spadones (eunuchs) and nowhere of the virgns...."
from :
HISTOIRE DES DOCTRINES CHRÉTIENNES AVANT NICÉE
III
LES ORIGINES DU CHRISTIANISME LATIN
PAR Jean Daniélou (1978)
______________________________________________________________________________________
"There is ample indication that our writer resorts to paraphrase, rewording, or imaginative application of scriptural passages when it suits his purposes, as in the parable of the Talents, which becomes in his telling
more specifically a story about ten Talents, to provide a factor for multiplication"
Five Days of Creation? The Origin of an Unusual Exegesis (Fs.-Cyprian, De centesima 26)
by Philip Sellew
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Would you like to add the above to your blog, to set the record straight?
Steven Avery
Well-known member
I know many scholars like angelomorphic Christianity, many are agnostics and atheists and various unusual beliefs and some follow Ehrman in believing that many NT books are forgeries.
Many works are untranslated, Origen, Jerome etc.
Your idea of heretical fear is humorous.
There is a legitimate question for Hugh Houghton and Grantley Robert McDonald as to the omission in their books.
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Steven Avery
Well-known member
That dates the text to late 2nd or early 3rd century. And the heavenly witnesses reference has solid scholarship acceptance. For TNC, the “three witnesses” are not in Matthew 28:19.
I guess you must be a Catholic after all.
Steven Avery
Well-known member
Try to write coherently.
I just explained to you that the Academy, with its translators, include all types of beliefs. You are thinking in reverse.