Hundredfold Martyrs

the date of the actual writing of these ECW manuscript copies, is far more important because of the many copyists altering, adding, and omitting theological content between the date of the original composition and the copies that we have today - whether in a single copy or multiple recensions.

The fact that the various heavenly witensses references are generally in all manuscripts, and are in context in the discussion, trumps your concern.

And it is also trumped by the many uses of the heavenly witnesses in varying contexts in the same time period.

You are just upset that there are 15-20 full verse uses, including the fact of the hundreds involved in the Council of Carthage, in a period that would be impossible if the heavenly witnesses was begun in the late 4th century.

You are now stuck with the Textual Theory of the Absurd.
 
Jovinian & his colleagues attacked all "orthodox" promoters of virginity as being Manichees.

Manichaeism is a dualistic religion that offered salvation through special knowledge (gnosis) of spiritual truths. With respect to "orthodoxy" in Christianity, one such mystical Manichaean type of gnosis is, par excellence, the constitution of the heavenly Trinity as "tres unum sunt" - three are one thing - as contrasted with the scriptural "noster Dominus unus" - one Lord - (Vulgate: Deut 6:4).

Where do you see Manichees affirming "tres unum sunt"?

Where do you see Jovinian attacking "tres unum sunt"?
 
Where do you see Manichees affirming "tres unum sunt"?
In the writings of Priscillian, who amalgamated Manichaeism and Christianity.

"lpse est enim qui fuit, est et futurus est et uisus a saeculis uerbum caro factus inhabitauit in nobis et crucifixus deuicta morte uitae heres effectus est ac tertia die resurgens factus futuri forma spem nostrac resurrectionis ostendit et ascendens in caelos uenientibus ad se iter construit totus in patre et pater in ipso, ut manifestaretur quod scribtum est: gloria in excelsis deo et pax hominibus in terra bonae uoluntatis; sicut lohannes ait: tria sunt quae testimonium dicunt in terra: aqua, caro et sanguis et haec tria in unum sunt, et tria sunt quae testimonium dicunt in caelo: pater, uerbum et spiritus et haec tria unum sunt in Christo Iesu."

"He is that who was, is, and shall be, and appeared as 'the Word' from eternity, 'was made
flesh, dwelled in us and', after being crucified, since death had been conquered,
was made heir of life; and by rising on the third day, as he was made
the type of future, he showed the hope of our resurrection, and by ascending
to the heavens he built the path for those who carne to him, while he was 'all
in the Father and the Father in him', so that what was written might be
manifested: 'Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to people of good
will;' [and] as John says: 'There are three who testify on earth, the water, the
flesh, and the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three who testify
in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in
Jesus Christ.'"

(Conti)
Where do you see Jovinian attacking "tres unum sunt"?
Silly question. Jovinian's writings were all destroyed by his persecutors after he was condemned as a heretic.
 
Silly question. Jovinian's writings were all destroyed by his persecutors after he was condemned as a heretic.

Jerome preserved the argumentation of Jovinian, as the base of his response, and afawk there is zero connection of the type you are trying to make.

Jovinian & his colleagues attacked all "orthodox" promoters of virginity as being Manichees.

Manichaeism is a dualistic religion that offered salvation through special knowledge (gnosis) of spiritual truths. With respect to "orthodoxy" in Christianity, one such mystical Manichaean type of gnosis is, par excellence, the constitution of the heavenly Trinity as "tres unum sunt" - three are one thing - as contrasted with the scriptural "noster Dominus unus" - one Lord - (Vulgate: Deut 6:4).

You just made this up as a defining difference with no basis.
 
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In the writings of Priscillian, who amalgamated Manichaeism and Christianity.

"He is that who was, is, and shall be, and appeared as 'the Word' from eternity, 'was made flesh, dwelled in us and', after being crucified, since death had been conquered, was made heir of life; and by rising on the third day, as he was made the type of future, he showed the hope of our resurrection, and by ascending
to the heavens he built the path for those who carne to him, while he was 'all in the Father and the Father in him', so that what was written might be manifested: 'Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to people of good will;' [and] as John says: 'There are three who testify on earth, the water, the flesh, and the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three who testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Jesus Christ.'"

Nothing particularly Manichaean in the quote, and nothing much different than the additional fifteen or so quotes of the full verse in that post-Nicean era.
 
Jerome preserved the argumentation of Jovinian, as the base of his response, and afawk there is zero connection of the type you are trying to make.
In De nuptiis et concupiscentia, another writing against Julian, Augustine indicated that it was Ambrose specifically against whom Jovinian had directed his accusation of Manichaeism:"

"Will you, Pelagians and Caelestians, dare to call even this man [i.e.
Ambrose] a Manichee? The heretic Jovinian called him that, when that
holy man maintained that the virginity of holy Mary remained even
after she gave birth. If, then, you do not dare to call him a Manichee,
why do you call us Manichees, though on the same point we are
defending the Catholic faith with the same line of thought?"


Nupt. 2.5.15 (CSEL 42, 267); trans. Teske, 62. See also Augustine's
comments in C. Jul. op. imp. 4.121–2 (PL 45, 1415–19).

(p.23 Marriage, Celibacy, and Heresy in Ancient Christianity,Hunter, David G., 2007)

And no, Jerome ddidn't preserve all Jovinian's writings, just some excerpts. BTW Jerome was widely condemned for his response to them, and for maintaing a caste system of blessings between the unmarried and the married, in the vein of Manichaeism and per De Cent. It is quite difficult to estimate how far Manichee practises and beliefs influenced Christianity in those days, but I suggest it was considerable.

You just made this up as a defining difference with no basis.
You're clueless.
 
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Nothing particularly Manichaean in the quote, and nothing much different than the additional fifteen or so quotes of the full verse in that post-Nicean era.
Priscillian introduced untrammelled Manchaeism into Christianity; and his Trinitarian doctrines were eventually followed by the ECFs and the RCC.
 
Priscillian introduced untrammelled Manchaeism into Christianity; and his Trinitarian doctrines were eventually followed by the ECFs and the RCC.

You used to say that the Trinitarian formulations were before Priscillian.

Seems like you jump around quite a bit.
 
In De nuptiis et concupiscentia, another writing against Julian, Augustine indicated that it was Ambrose specifically against whom Jovinian had directed his accusation of Manichaeism:"

None of this has anything to do with your bogus "tres unum sunt" claim, relating to Jovinian.

Jovinian & his colleagues attacked all "orthodox" promoters of virginity as being Manichees.

Manichaeism is a dualistic religion that offered salvation through special knowledge (gnosis) of spiritual truths. With respect to "orthodoxy" in Christianity, one such mystical Manichaean type of gnosis is, par excellence, the constitution of the heavenly Trinity as "tres unum sunt" - three are one thing - as contrasted with the scriptural "noster Dominus unus" - one Lord - (Vulgate: Deut 6:4).
 
And no, Jerome ddidn't preserve all Jovinian's writings, just some excerpts. BTW Jerome was widely condemned for his response to them,

He is lauded for doing a faithful job in presenting the Jovinian arguments, even while his own response is considered quite deficient.
 
Stop making things up. I never linked Jovinian to tres unum sunt directly.

In the quote above, that seemed clearly to be your aim.

cjab said:
Jovinian & his colleagues attacked all "orthodox" promoters of virginity as being Manichees.

Manichaeism is a dualistic religion that offered salvation through special knowledge (gnosis) of spiritual truths. With respect to "orthodoxy" in Christianity, one such mystical Manichaean type of gnosis is, par excellence, the constitution of the heavenly Trinity as "tres unum sunt" - three are one thing - as contrasted with the scriptural "noster Dominus unus" - one Lord - (Vulgate: Deut 6:4).

I am glad you are walking it back.
 
In the quote above, that seemed clearly to be your aim.
I said "Jovinian & his colleagues attacked all "orthodox" promoters of virginity as being Manichees."

That, per se, is unrelated to the Trinity.
I am glad you are walking it back.

Manichaeism is a very broad term for all kinds of erroneous doctrines connected with the supposed primordial conflict between light and darkness, or goodness and evil. It continued on long into the Christian era, with Bogomils, and Albigenses also being alleged exemplars. A two-fold caste system, with an elect hierarchy devoted to chastity was one of its key indices. That caste system is also to be found in Roman Christianity.

Undoubtedly it infiltrated the minds of many in the RCC. These types also had a penchant for mysticism and gnosticism, and from Priscillian, we learn, a penchant for Trinitarianism. It's difficult at present to see where Trinitarianism came from, but many consider it originated in Hellenic & Egyptian religion, and later, pseudo-Christian gnosticism.

"For example, Basilides, the first known Gnostic thinker to use homoousios in the first
half of the second century, speaks of a threefold sonship consubstantial
with the god who is not. The Valentinian Gnostic Ptolemy claims
in his letter to Flora that it is the nature of the good God to beget and
bring forth only beings similar to, and consubstantial with himself.
An anonymous Gnostic teacher, most probably Mark the Magician,
states that in the original Tetrad Dynamis (Power) is homoousios with
the Monas (Unit)."

The Word “Homoousios” from Hellenism to Christianity
Pier Franco Beatrice
Church History / Volume 71 / Issue 02 / June 2002, pp 243 - 272
 
"For example, Basilides, the first known Gnostic thinker to use homoousios in the first half of the second century, speaks of a threefold sonship consubstantial
with the god who is not.

This comes from Hippolytus, and is rather incomprehensible in the way stated by Pier Franco Beatrice. That is because it is close to incomprehensible from Hippolytus:

Basilides and the non-existent Deity
https://ogdoas.wordpress.com/2014/09/08/basilides-a-synopsis/

“There existed, he says, in the Seed itself, a Sonship, threefold, in every respect of the same Substance with the non-existent God, and begotten from nonentities. This Sonship involved a threefold division, one part was refined, another lacking refinement, and another requiring purification.”

(continues)

Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria have reports as well.
 
I'm not sure how much truth we can credit Jerome with in respect of Jovinian. He set out to represent Jovinian as a paragon of licentiousness. In Book II Jerome accused Jovinian of being a de facto Latin reincarnation of Basildes.

"Basilides, the master of licentiousness and the grossest sensuality, after the lapse of so many years, and like a second Euphorbus, was changed by transmigration into Jovinian, so that the Latin tongue might have a heresy of its own. Was there no other province in the whole world to receive the gospel of pleasure, and into which the serpent might insinuate itself, except that which was founded by the teaching of Peter, upon the rock Christ? Idol temples had fallen before the standard of the Cross and the severity of the Gospel: now on the contrary lust and gluttony endeavour to overthrow the solid structure of the Cross."

Jerome further accuses Jovinian of being at the head of an army of worldings:

"But the very women, unhappy creatures! Though they deserve no pity, who chant the words of their instructor (for what does God require of them but to become mothers?), have lost not only their chastity, but all sense of shame, and defend their licentious practices with an access of impudence. You have, moreover, in your army many subalterns, you have your guardsmen and your skirmishers at the outposts, the round-bellied, the well-dressed, the exquisites, and noisy orators, to defend you with tooth and nail. The noble make way for you, the wealthy print kisses on your face. For unless you had come, the drunkard and the glutton could not have entered paradise. All honor to your virtue, or rather to your vices! You have in your camp, even amazons with uncovered breasts, bare arms and knees, who challenge the men who come against them to a battle of lust. Your household is a large one, and so in your aviaries not only turtle-doves, but hoopoes are fed, which may wing their flight over the whole field of rank debauchery. Pull me to pieces and scatter me to the winds: tax me with what offenses you please: accuse me of luxurious and delicate living: you would like me better if I were guilty, for I should belong to your herd."

"Beware of the name of Jovinianus. It is derived from that of an idol. [That is, Jove.] The Capitol is in ruins: the temples of Jove with their ceremonies have perished. Why should his name and vices flourish now in the midst of you, when even in the time of Numa Pompilius, even under the sway of kings, your ancestors gave a heartier welcome to the self-restraint of Pythagoras than they did under the consuls to the debauchery of Epicurus?"
_____________________________

Jerome's contrary views in Book I are extreme, ranging from near idolatry of virginity (synonymous with the worship of the Magna Mater Cybele), to purported advocacy of self-castration for men:

"The virtue of woman is, in a special sense, purity....Let my married sisters copy the examples of Theano, Cleobuline, Gorgente, Timoclia, the Claudias and Cornelias; and when they find the Apostle conceding second marriage to depraved women, they will read that before the light of our religion shone upon the world wives of one husband ever held high rank among matrons, that by their hands the sacred rites of Fortuna Muliebris were performed, that a priest or Flamen twice married was unknown, that the high-priests of Athens to this day emasculate themselves by drinking hemlock, and once they have been drawn in to the pontificate, cease to be men."

"And yet John, one of the disciples, who is related to have been the youngest of the Apostles, and who was a virgin when he embraced Christianity, remained a virgin, and on that account was more beloved by our Lord, and lay upon the breast of Jesus" [never says any such thing in the bible].

An anecdote of Zosimus tells how Constantine imported a statue of the Mother of the gods from Kyzikos, one of her major cult centers, and had it adapted to a statue of the Virgin Mary [Source].

Jerome seems to be unaware of how his appeal to the practices of pagan priests, and his idolatry of virginity, could be construed as confounding Christianity with the eastern cults of paganism.
_________________________________________

Jerome's bizarre views are further propounded in his treatise against Helvidius, composed at Rome in 383. Jerome had responded to Helvidius's use of Gen 1:28 by maintaining that the Old Testament edicts were no longer binding on Christians: "Be fruitful and multiply" was abrogated by 1 Cor 7:9 ("The time is short; from now on let those who have wives live as though they had none"). [contrariwise Jesus - Matt 5:18].

Jerome explains: "The reason why the wood grows up is that it may be cut down. The field is sown that it may be reaped. The world is already full, and the population is too large for the soil." In Ep. 22, Jerome argued that in the beginning, when the world was empty, it was quite appropriate that the blessing of children should be promised. "But as the crop gradually increased, a reaper was sent in."

Jerome views are echoed by encratites such as Hieracas. "Hieracas was a learned ascetic who flourished about the end of the 3rd century AD at Leontopolis in Egypt, where he lived to the age of ninety, supporting himself by calligraphy and devoting his leisure to scientific and literary pursuits, especially to the study of the Bible. He was the author of Biblical commentaries in Greek and Coptic, and is said to have composed many hymns. He became leader of the so-called sect of the Hieracites, an ascetic society from which married persons were excluded, and of which one of the leading tenets was that only the celibate could enter the kingdom of heaven." [Source].

Jerome can be charged emulating the encratic heresy of Hieracas. According to Athanasius, who refuted Hieracas in his First Letter to Virgins, Hieracas held that ‘marriage is evil inasmuch as virginity is good,’ Ep. virg. 24; trans. in David Brakke, Athanasius and the Politics of Asceticism (OECS; Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995), 282. Hieracas saw marriage in the Old Testament as allowed, but taught that Christ imposed celibacy on all believers.

David G. Hunter (p.131 "Marriage Heresy and Celibary"): "Although the ascetical teachings of Hieracas were later to become associated with Manichaeism, it is clear that Hieracas had much more in common with the ancient encratite tradition. Like Tatian, Hieracas appears to have based his call to ascetic renunciation on a radical interpretation of the sayings of Jesus and Paul. By all accounts, then, the ascetical theology of Hieracas represented a continuation of Tatian's radical encratism in fourth-century monastic garb. (Susanna Elm has suggested that the radicalism of Hieracas may have been a ‘strand of asceticism prevalent in all of Egypt’ throughout the fourth century. See her
‘Virgins of God’: The Making of Asceticism in Late Antiquity (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1994), 339–42, quotation at 341. Later Byzantine Christians associated Hieracas with the Manicheans: S. Lieu, ‘An Early Byzantine Formula for the Renunciation of Manichaeism: the Capita VII Contra Manichaeos of (Zacharias of Mitylene)’, JAC 26 (1983), 152–218.

Epiphanius (Haer. 67.8.3) accuses the Hieracites of fostering the practice of ‘surreptitious wives’ (συνεισάκτους γυνα κας), that is, ascetic women who lived with ascetic men in a spiritual partnership. ‘No one can worship with them without being a virgin, a monk, continent or a widow’ (Haer. 67.2.9). [cf. De Cent.]

Further on Hieracas, see James E. Goehring, ‘Hieracas of Leontopolis: The Making of a Desert Ascetic’, in his Ascetics, Society, and the Desert: Studies in Early Egyptian Monasticism (Harrisburg, PA: Trinity Press International, 1999), 110–33.
________________________________________________________________

[cont.]
 
[cont.]

Jerome had other opponents besides Jovinian. One was "Hilary the Layman," the presumed (at least by Souter) identity of the author "Ambrosiaster". De peccato Adae et Evae, which appears as Question 127 in the Quaestiones veteris et novi testamenti of Ambrosiaster, was composed between the years 366 and 384. "Ambrosiaster" was at Rome during the period of Jerome's stay there (382 - 85). De peccato Adae et Evae could date from those years.

(NB: David G. Hunter ["On the Sin of Adam and Eve: A Little-Known Defense of Marriage and Childbearing by Ambrosiaster," HTR 82:3 (1989)283-99] thinks "Ambrosiaster" was a cleric. He says "Although Souter argued that Ambrosiaster was a layman, he admitted thaf his arguments were not conclusive. In favor of the view that Ambrosiaster was a cleric is the fact that he appears so knowledgeable about ecclesiastical customs, particularly those regarding church office" [NB: this inconclusive view may be due to clerical bigotry against lay persons.]

Hunter says "Ambrosiaster's writings reflect the knowledge and attitudes of a Christian aristocrat. He frequently refers to the emperor, to high state officials, and to members of the senatorial order. As we will see below, one of his illustrations of the value of clerical celibacy is derived from imperial ceremony. Ambrosiaster was quite interested in Roman legal traditions and seems also to have traveled widely, particularly in Africa and Egypt.

Ambrosiaster challenges one of the basic assumptions of Western (and Eastern) ascetical writers. He attacks the position held by Ambrose and Jerome: that in paradise Adam and Eve were virgins and that sexual relations occurred only after the Fall. Jerome in Ep. 22 to Eustochium (dated 384), states this position explicitly. After citing Gen 1:28 ("Increase and multiply and fill the earth"), he writes: This command is fulfilled after Paradise, and nakedness, and the fig leaves that betoken the lasciviousness (pruriginem) of marriage. . . . Eve was a virgin in Paradise. After the garments of skins her married life began. By thus associating sexuality with the Fall, ascetic writers such as Jerome could portray all sexual relations as "tainted" in some way by sin.

Per Hunter "On the Sin of Adam and Eve": "Jerome taught that the "two in one flesh" of Gen 2:24 no longer pertained to a unity of flesh, but only to one of spirit. [39] In Ep. 22 he argued that "under the Old Law there was a different conception of happiness." [40] Once riches were the promised reward; now "the poor are blessed, and Lazarus is preferred to the rich in his purple." [41] The same logic, as we saw above, also applied to procreation: once a crop of children was promised; now a reaper has been sent to harvest it. [42]"
[39] Ep. 22.1 A (CSEL 54. 145). Jerome is echoing Eph 5:32 and 1 Cor 6:17. Cf. Adversus Jovinianum 1.16.
[40] Ep. 22.21.1 (CSEL 54. 171): Aliafuit in veteri lege felicitas.
[41] Ep. 22.21.2 (CSEL 54. 171): nunc benedicuntur pauperes et Lazarus diviti praefertur in purpuram.
[42] Ep. 22.21.3 (CSEL 54. 172)

Ambrosiaster rejects the above as propaganda: sexuality was part of God's original intention for the human race. Ambrosiaster appeals to the unity of the Old and New Testaments, and to Jesus's teaching on divorce. Although never alluding to Jerome by name, Ambrosiaster infers Jerome as teaching dualism, Manichaeism and Marcionism by promoting a different view of God in the New Testament to that in the Old Testament. [cf. Quaes. 127.17-18.]

"When he refers to the Manichees, Ambrosiaster notes that they have been condemned "not only privately, but also by the edicts of the emperors." Legislation against the Manichees was renewed several times during Ambrosiaster's lifetime: Codex Theodosianus 16.5.3 (372), 7 (381), 9 (382), 11 (383), and 18 (389). In his commentary on 2 Tim 3:7 (CSEL 81/3. 312) Ambrosiaster cites verbatim Diocletian's rescript of 297 against the Manichees." - David G. Hunter, "On the Sin of Adam and Eve."]

It is remarked that Augustine was well aware of these charges of Manichaeism against Jerome, and so took steps to avoid over-spiritualizing Genesis [cf. Elizabeth Clark, "Heresy, Asceticism," 35.]

Ambrosiaster was likely followed by Augustine in allowing that, out of practical considerations for worldly cares and concerns, and per Paul in 1 Cor. 7, virginity may be preferable to marriage, but radically breaks with De. Cent., Jerome and the Encratites, by deprecating the existence of a caste system linked to eternal rewards.
 
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I'm not sure how much truth we can credit Jerome with in respect of Jovinian. He set out to represent Jovinian as a paragon of licentiousness. In Book II Jerome accused Jovinian of being a de facto Latin reincarnation of Basildes.

Neil Burnett is very good on the Jerome-Jovinian issues.

Jovinian : a monastic heretic in late-fourth century Rome (1996)
Neil Burnett
https://open.library.ubc.ca/media/stream/pdf/831/1.0087102/2
https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/831/items/1.0087102

This was a Master's Thesis, University of British Columbia, 1996, and Neil Burnett may not have other writings.
 
Neil Burnett is very good on the Jerome-Jovinian issues.

Jovinian : a monastic heretic in late-fourth century Rome (1996)
Neil Burnett
https://open.library.ubc.ca/media/stream/pdf/831/1.0087102/2
https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/831/items/1.0087102

This was a Master's Thesis, University of British Columbia, 1996, and Neil Burnett may not have other writings.
The point you have to bear in mind is that "Jerome's Adversus Iovinianum was widely rejected in Rome" (p.4). Jovinian was closely followed by Ambroisaster. This discloses that some of Jovinian's points were seen to have merit, irrespective of Jerome's diatribe against him.

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make in referring me to a 127 page thesis. The background is Jerome's "excessive campaign of ascetic proselytization, and the shocking death of Blesilla under his care, which would have been quite sufficient to bring any previously existing tensions in the minds of serious Christians to a fever pitch" (p.122).

Put bluntly, Jerome has many serious questions to answer about whether he was peddling some form of the encratic heresy. I believe he was. If he was, it suggests his involvement in Manichaean dualist practices and beliefs, doubtless learned in the East.
 
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The point you have to bear in mind is that "Jerome's Adversus Iovinianum was widely rejected in Rome" (p.4). Jovinian was closely followed by Ambroisaster. This discloses that some of Jovinian's points were seen to have merit, irrespective of Jerome's diatribe against him.

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make in referring me to a 127 page thesis. The background is Jerome's "excessive campaign of ascetic proselytization, and the shocking death of Blesilla under his care, which would have been quite sufficient to bring any previously existing tensions in the minds of serious Christians to a fever pitch" (p.122).

Put bluntly, Jerome has many serious questions to answer about whether he was peddling some form of the encratic heresy. I believe he was. If he was, it suggests his involvement in Manichaean dualist practices and beliefs, doubtless learned in the East.

This was a major scandal.
 
I'm not clear what point you're trying to make in referring me to a 127 page thesis.

Burnett explains imbalances on various sides, from Harnack to Jesuits. He explains how they attempt to frame the issues to match their POV. This writing by Burnett ends up being harder on Jerome and Ambrose than Hunter.

It is the best writing I have seen on the topic. I went through the first half and plan to at least skim the 2nd half.

The Blesilla reference is p. 124.
 
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