Hyper Calvinism as defined by a Calvinist

[ReverendRV]

And likes to think that he is anti-Calvinist.

He's not an Anti Calvinist; he's anti Calvinism...

 

[zerinus]

It's good he's here though; sowing and watering Seed and all...

LOL! I enjoy reading your posts more than reading most of the others' most of the time.

 

[ReverendRV]

LOL! I enjoy reading your posts more than reading most of the others' most of the time.

Please enjoy the following then..

Peter Pan ~ by ReverendRV

Colossians 2:16-17; Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

When I think of ‘shadows’ my mind goes to the story of Peter Pan. In the Disney adaptation we find that Peter Pan goes looking for his shadow and finds it in the home of the Girl Wendy. It seems that the shadow has a mind of it’s own and from time to time it runs away. It takes quite an effort for the shadow to be captured, and Wendy helps Peter by sewing the shadow to his feet. Thus his shadow ceases its effort to escape; for now…

God gave his Law to the Jews through his Prophet Moses. The Jews became zealous for Gods Law and rightfully so. The Apostle Paul says that the Law was given by God to show us that we are Sinners; and to point us to Jesus. ~ In ancient days the people kept the time of day with a sundial. A sundial has a shadow casting device called a gnomon, attached to a dial plate which has markings. The markings almost always have hours, and may or may not be legal time, often it is local sun time. The sundial always points to the truth. Paul teaches us that the ‘things’ he mentions in this verse are some of the markings on the face of the sundial, and the shadow is cast from the gnomon. We are to learn from this sundial just ‘how far gone we are’ in our spiritual day. Have you ever told a lie? Then the gnomon’s shadow has started moving across the clock face and stops at half past the ‘Liar’ marking. Have you ever stolen? The shadow moves more and stops at ‘Thief’. The day has hardly begun but we see ‘it is time’ that we know the truth…

Like the shadow of Peter Pan, the Jews began to chase the shadow of the Law as if it were the reality. They loved the darkness rather than the light. We, like them, have gone astray and do not want to come into the light. What we fail to realize is that without light, there is no shadow to be cast onto the ground. In our fascination for the shadow, the thought has never occurred to us that if we follow the shadow from the face of the sundial back to it’s origin we will find out ‘who’ the gnomon is! The Bible tells us that Jesus kept the Law of God perfectly and we are living in his shadow. He is the gnomon which reaches all the way up to Heaven. Climb Jacobs ladder, if you enter the Kingdom of God through Faith in Jesus, you will not be judged guilty by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

But you ask, “Didn’t Jesus say that not one dot of an ‘i’ or one cross of a ‘t’ will perish from the Law of God?” Yes, he did; but we also learn from the Bible that, “For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” If we do not keep the festivals but we do keep the Sabbath days, then we are cursed because we have not continued to do everything written in the books of the Law of Moses. Instead, let’s live by Gods Grace! Don’t be like Peter Pan and desire a life which chases the shadow of the reality, only to sew it to your heel. The shadow will escape you again, because it is only dangling by a thread…

Ephesians 2:8; For by Grace you are saved through Faith apart from Works so that no man can boast…

 

[zerinus]

There are serious disappointments between their theology, which is what I am interested in.

I meant to say "disagreements," LOL! The auto spell checker on my handheld device keeps playing tricks on me, and I am not always careful enough to catch it.

 

[zerinus]

I'm happy to talk about Mormonism here. Who needs the Gospel when Mormons Baptize both the Dead Anne Frank, and Dead Nazis? If Nazis don't need the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I don't need the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Is the Baptism of the Dead 'Good News' for me?

Sorry, can't comply. This is designed the Calvinism & Arminianism forum, and I would like respect that designation. If you seriously want to discuss Mormonism, the best thing to do is to take it to that forum.

 

[zerinus]

He's a Mormon????

And opposed to Calvinism on biblical grounds! What are you going to do about it? Nothing, right?

 

[TomFL]

You like to think that you are not a Calvinist, but you have borrowed a third of your theology from them. That is why you can't defeat Calvinism properly. Deep down you are still agreeing with them half the time.

When you can't get the nature of God right Calvinism is the least of your problems

 

[Theo1689]

When you can't get the nature of God right Calvinism is the least of your problems

Agreed 100%.

And when YOU can't get the nature of Christians right ("peaceful", "gentle", "charitable", etc.), then Calvinism is the least of YOUR problems.
IMO.

 

[Theo1689]

I meant to say "disagreements," LOL! The auto spell checker on my handheld device keeps playing tricks on me, and I am not always careful enough to catch it.

"not always careful enough"....

The same attitude you approach Scripture with, obviously...

 

[zerinus]

Please enjoy the following then..

Peter Pan ~ by ReverendRV

Colossians 2:16-17; Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

When I think of ‘shadows’ my mind goes to the story of Peter Pan. In the Disney adaptation we find that Peter Pan goes looking for his shadow and finds it in the home of the Girl Wendy. It seems that the shadow has a mind of it’s own and from time to time it runs away. It takes quite an effort for the shadow to be captured, and Wendy helps Peter by sewing the shadow to his feet. Thus his shadow ceases its effort to escape; for now…

God gave his Law to the Jews through his Prophet Moses. The Jews became zealous for Gods Law and rightfully so. The Apostle Paul says that the Law was given by God to show us that we are Sinners; and to point us to Jesus. ~ In ancient days the people kept the time of day with a sundial. A sundial has a shadow casting device called a gnomon, attached to a dial plate which has markings. The markings almost always have hours, and may or may not be legal time, often it is local sun time. The sundial always points to the truth. Paul teaches us that the ‘things’ he mentions in this verse are some of the markings on the face of the sundial, and the shadow is cast from the gnomon. We are to learn from this sundial just ‘how far gone we are’ in our spiritual day. Have you ever told a lie? Then the gnomon’s shadow has started moving across the clock face and stops at half past the ‘Liar’ marking. Have you ever stolen? The shadow moves more and stops at ‘Thief’. The day has hardly begun but we see ‘it is time’ that we know the truth…

Like the shadow of Peter Pan, the Jews began to chase the shadow of the Law as if it were the reality. They loved the darkness rather than the light. We, like them, have gone astray and do not want to come into the light. What we fail to realize is that without light, there is no shadow to be cast onto the ground. In our fascination for the shadow, the thought has never occurred to us that if we follow the shadow from the face of the sundial back to it’s origin we will find out ‘who’ the gnomon is! The Bible tells us that Jesus kept the Law of God perfectly and we are living in his shadow. He is the gnomon which reaches all the way up to Heaven. Climb Jacobs ladder, if you enter the Kingdom of God through Faith in Jesus, you will not be judged guilty by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

But you ask, “Didn’t Jesus say that not one dot of an ‘i’ or one cross of a ‘t’ will perish from the Law of God?” Yes, he did; but we also learn from the Bible that, “For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” If we do not keep the festivals but we do keep the Sabbath days, then we are cursed because we have not continued to do everything written in the books of the Law of Moses. Instead, let’s live by Gods Grace! Don’t be like Peter Pan and desire a life which chases the shadow of the reality, only to sew it to your heel. The shadow will escape you again, because it is only dangling by a thread…

Ephesians 2:8; For by Grace you are saved through Faith apart from Works so that no man can boast…

Thank you. I read that, but I am not sure what to make of it. If you are suggesting that obedience to God is no longer a gospel requirement, then you are sadly mistaken. I started a thread about obedience to God sometime ago which can be seen here. In it I gave many biblical references to support that assertion. Take a look, and tell me what you think.

 

[Theo1689]

Thank you. I read that, but I am not sure what to make of it. If you are suggesting that obedience to God is no longer a gospel requirement, then you are sadly mistaken. I started a thread about obedience to God sometime ago which can be seen here. In it I gave many biblical references to support that assertion. Take a look, and tell me what you think.

Any comprehensive treatment of that topic would include the following:


Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

But Mormons run away from these passages like Kryptonite.


Keep in mind, since it easy to mislead people about what we believe.
We are not "anti-obedience".
We do not believe in "disobedience".

What we believe is that actual obedience comes AFTER we are saved, and so is not a prerequisite "to" being saved.

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

 

[TomFL]

Agreed 100%.

And when YOU can't get the nature of Christians right ("peaceful", "gentle", "charitable", etc.), then Calvinism is the least of YOUR problems.
IMO.

Was that a confession ?

 

[Theo1689]

When you can't get the nature of God right Calvinism is the least of your problems

Was THAT a "confession"?

<Chuckle>

 

[TomFL]

Was THAT a "confession"?

<Chuckle>

Yes yours

 

[zerinus]

A hyper-Calvinist is one who:

1. Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR

That is pure hypocrisy, dishonesty, and deception, Calvinist style. The "gospel" is literally the "good news" of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. It is the "good news" that Jesus has redeemed them and atoned for their sins, and that they can obtain salvation through it by faith and repentance. But if they are not among the "elect," but are among the "reprobate," and Jesus did not in fact die for and atone for their sins, then preaching that message to them is pure hypocrisy and deception. The "gospel" is not a "good news" for them at all, it is bad news. Telling someone that you have "good news" for them, when what you have is bad news, is nothing short of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and deception.

2. Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR

Unless they are among the reprobate, in which case no amount of "faith" would do them any good.

3. Denies that the gospel makes any “offer” of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR

More hypocrisy, dishonesty, lies, and deception Calvinist style, as per element #1.

4. Denies that there is such a thing as “common grace,” OR

Another dishonest, deceitful, and hypocritical concept, Calvinist style. Grace that does not lead to salvation is no grace, but hypocrisy, dishonesty, and deception.

5. Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

Sorry, I wrote that wrong! It should have read, "Greater love hath no man than this, that he should unconditionally predestine them to damnation and reprobation to suffer a never ending torment in hell for his own glory!" LOL! What farce of a religion. What kind of nutcase is it that would fall for this kind of nonsense as a religion?

 

[zerinus]

You've failed in your objective.

See my previous post. You never know, you might change your mind after reading that.

 

[Theo1689]

Calvinism is false. It is a damnable heresy. It is antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the lesson that you really need to learn.

All you're doing is engaging in mud-slinging.
You falsely CLAIMED that your view is based on "Biblical grounds"
But you never OFFER any "Biblical grounds".
You only offer PHILOSOPHICAL opinion.

 

[Theo1689]

That is pure hypocrisy, dishonesty, and deception, Calvinist style.

Ad hominem.

The "gospel" is literally the "good news" of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. It is the "good news" that Jesus has redeemed them and atoned for their sins, and that they can obtain salvation through it by faith and repentance. But if they are not among the "elect," but are among the "reprobate," and Jesus did not in fact die for and atone for their sins, then preaching that message to them is pure hypocrisy and deception. The "gospel" is not a "good news" for them at all, it is bad news. Telling someone that you have "good news" for them, when what you have is bad news, is nothing short of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and deception.

Unless they are among the reprobate, in which case no amount of "faith" would do them any good.

First of all, I would note that this is NOT a "Biblical" argument, but a philosophical one.

Secondly, I would note that the reprobate don't WANT to have faith, or even to have anything to do with God, so that comment is irrelevant.

Finally, the Bible NEVER teaches that the gospel is "good news" for "everyone in the world", so your argument is based on an unBiblical premise.

More hypocrisy, dishonesty, lies, and deception Calvinist style, as per element #1.

More ad hominem.

Another dishonest, deceitful, and hypocritical concept, Calvinist style.

More ad hominem.

Grace that does not lead to salvation is no grace,

Prove it.

but hypocrisy, dishonesty, and deception.

More ad hominem.

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

Sorry, I wrote that wrong! It should have read, "Greater love hath no man than this, that he should unconditionally predestine them to damnation and reprobation to suffer a never ending torment in hell for his own glory!" LOL! What farce of a religion. What kind of nutcase is it that would fall for this kind of nonsense as a religion?

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

Christ truly did lay down His life for his friends, namely the elect.
Namely, "His people".
Namely, "His sheep".

 

[TomFL]

See my previous post. You never know, you might change your mind after reading that.

Guess the Calvinist are not finding your arguments too persausive

 

[zerinus]

Guess the Calvinist are not finding your arguments too persausive

Or they don't want to. Calvinism numbs the mind, blinds the eyes, and dulles the intellect so that the most obvious truths and plainest arguments became inaccessible.