I am curious how YOU would answer this question...

I don't know

I do not possess middle knowledge

Only God would know that

but what has that to do with the op ?

So you can't think of EVEN ONE circumstance outside of your control that was used to lead you to Christ!!!

So you have no need to thank God for what he does for you (in addition to Calvary). All I can say is Wow!!!

You are the type of person who thinks that even if you had been born Osama Bin Laden's child you would have still believed in Jesus because of YOUR wisdom or something.


P.S.

I believe in divine election, so this is an non-issue. God would have made the way for me to be believe.

But for those who stress free will, the issue of different circumstances is a valid question. Would you still believe if you had different circumstances?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So you can't think of EVEN ONE circumstance outside of your control that was used to lead you to Christ!!!

So you have no need to thank God for what he does for you (in addition to Calvary). All I can say is Wow!!!

You are the type of person who thinks that even if you had been born Osama Bin Laden's child you would have still believed in Jesus because of YOUR wisdom or something.


P.S.

I believe in divine election, so this is an non-issue. God would have made the way for me to be believe.

But for those who stress free will, the issue of different circumstances is a valid question. Would you still believe if you had different circumstances?
You are a bit confused

None of this below is what you originally asked me or has any relevance to my reply

So you can't think of EVEN ONE circumstance outside of your control that was used to lead you to Christ!!!

So you have no need to thank God for what he does for you (in addition to Calvary). All I can say is Wow!!!

You are the type of person who thinks that even if you had been born Osama Bin Laden's child you would have still believed in Jesus because of YOUR wisdom or something.
 
You are a bit confused

None of this below is what you originally asked me or has any relevance to my reply

Then let me ask you directly...

Has God done ANYTHING to help you believe in him, that had he NOT done it you might not have believed?

If you say NO...

Then you have no need to thank God for what he has done for you (other than Calvary).


P.S.

I say YES! The first of many is that God had me born to Christian parents in a country with few Christians.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Then let me ask you directly...

Has God done ANYTHING to help you believe in him, that had he NOT done it you might not have believed?

If you say NO...

Then you have no need to thank God for what he has done for you (other than Calvary).


P.S.

I say YES! The first of many is that God had me born to Christian parents in a country with few Christians.

Look God does a lot of things to bring people to faith but who can say if he didn't do it one way or it didn't happen one way it could have not happened another

Why is God limited to what one might believe was the only way
 
Look God does a lot of things to bring people to faith but who can say if he didn't do it one way or it didn't happen one way it could have not happened another

Why is God limited to what one might believe was the only way

Are you saying that God does some things to bring people to faith that he does not do for others?

In other words, God arranges for most living in some countries to hear the Gospel, but does not arrange for most living in Afghanistan to hear the Gospel.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Are you saying that God does some things to bring people to faith that he does not do for others?

In other words, God arranges for most living in some countries to hear the Gospel, but does not arrange for most living in Afghanistan to hear the Gospel.
I am saying God does things to encourage faith

and I am not going to put him in a box on how or what manner he must operate

though it does seem to me there are advantages being born in one place than the other
 
I am saying God does things to encourage faith

and I am not going to put him in a box on how or what manner he must operate

though it does seem to me there are advantages being born in one place than the other

Right, but this forum board concerns Arminianism & Calvinism.

So would you agree that...

Since God decides who gets to hear the message of the Gospel*, God ultimately decides who will likely get saved.

*Based on where God had you born.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I am curious how YOU would answer this question...

Are there ANY circumstances, OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, which had they been different, you might not have believed in Christ?

My answer is Yes. There are many. The first was that I was born to Christian parents in a country with few Christians. If I had been born to other parents I might not have believed in Christ.

It is a simple question and I did not use any fancy terms.

Are you willing to give us your answer.


P.S.

In full disclosure, my followup question will be...

If you answered Yes to the question above, WHO WAS IN CONTROL of those circumstances?
Yes; if something had been different I wouldn't have believed in Christ. If I hadn't finally agreed to go to Church with my brother to get him to stop asking me to go, I wouldn't have gotten Saved; well, I wouldn't have gotten Saved THAT day...

I think it's a yes and no answer. A Seed was planted, the Seed was watered; but if God didn't give the growth THAT day, the Seed would have been watered again until God gave the growth. There are a lot of things that are out of our control, like the Holy Spirit coming and going, etc; but I think the main thing that's out of my control is God's Unmerited Favor. If there was even one reason I should Merit the Grace of God, it wouldn't be Grace and could only be Merited Favor. By definition, Unmerited Favor HAS to be at the top of the list of things that are out of my control...

And answering your follow-up; God is always in control when Unmerited Favor IS a factor...
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Yes; if something had been different I wouldn't have believed in Christ. If I hadn't finally agreed to go to Church with my brother to get him to stop asking me to go, I wouldn't have gotten Saved; well, I wouldn't have gotten Saved THAT day...

I think it's a yes and no answer. A Seed was planted, the Seed was watered; but if God didn't give the growth THAT day, the Seed would have been watered again until God gave the growth. There are a lot of things that are out of our control, like the Holy Spirit coming and going, etc; but I think the main thing that's out of my control is God's Unmerited Favor. If there was a reason I should Merit the Grace of God, it wouldn't be Grace and could only be Merited Favor. By definition, Unmerited Favor HAS to be at the top of the list of things that are out of my control...

And answering your follow-up; God is always in control if Unmerited Favor IS a factor...
Look at what Mordecai told Esther. ”Do not imagine that you in the king’s palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?”[Esther 4:13-14] Open theists and molinists love to use this to support their beliefs. But Esther did exactly what God predestined her to do.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Look at what Mordecai told Esther. ”Do not imagine that you in the king’s palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?”[Esther 4:13-14] Open theists and molinists love to use this to support their beliefs. But Esther did exactly what God predestined her to do.
Are you a former member of CARM Forums?

When I argue against Molinism, Counterfactuals, and Middle Knowledge; I point out that If I were Saved in one Reality but not Saved in the Main Sequence Reality, God will have lost a Sheep when he will lose none. Molinism cannot believe in Predestination or Providence when it believes you can be Saved here but Lost there...
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Are you a former member of CARM Forums?

When I argue against Molinism, Counterfactuals, and Middle Knowledge; I point out that If I were Saved in one Reality but not Saved in the Main Sequence Reality, God will have lost a Sheep when he will lose none...
No I’m not. I just signed up last night. I am a member, and former member(banned) of quite a few others. Reformed folk aren’t welcomed on many Christian websites.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No I’m not. I just signed up last night. I am a member, and former member(banned) of quite a few others. Reformed folk aren’t welcomed on many Christian websites.
I got kicked off of the Society of Arminians Farcebook Group because I got an Arminian to start agreeing with me that we're Totally Unable without the Grace of God making a 'real' difference in our Salvation, and prevening even our Will...

I wonder why getting that kind of agreement doesn't happen here...
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
I am curious how YOU would answer this question... Are there ANY circumstances, OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, which had they been different, you might not have believed in Christ? My answer is Yes. There are many. The first was that I was born to Christian parents in a country with few Christians. If I had been born to other parents I might not have believed in Christ. It is a simple question and I did not use any fancy terms. Are you willing to give us your answer. P.S. In full disclosure, my followup question will be... If you answered Yes to the question above, WHO WAS IN CONTROL of those circumstances?
Well, I don’t believe for one second God leaves ppl‘s salvation to chance. Neither do I think He looked down through the corridors of time to see who would be willing and elected to save them. He knew everyone who would be saved, and that was because He worked it out according to His plan, not their’s.
 

Iconoclast

Active member
I am curious how YOU would answer this question...

Are there ANY circumstances, OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, which had they been different, you might not have believed in Christ?

My answer is Yes. There are many. The first was that I was born to Christian parents in a country with few Christians. If I had been born to other parents I might not have believed in Christ.

It is a simple question and I did not use any fancy terms.

Are you willing to give us your answer.


P.S.

In full disclosure, my followup question will be...

If you answered Yes to the question above, WHO WAS IN CONTROL of those circumstances?
from the 1689 confession of faith


CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4
1
Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
I am curious how YOU would answer this question...

Are there ANY circumstances, OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, which had they been different, you might not have believed in Christ?

My answer is Yes. There are many. The first was that I was born to Christian parents in a country with few Christians. If I had been born to other parents I might not have believed in Christ.

It is a simple question and I did not use any fancy terms.

Are you willing to give us your answer.


P.S.

In full disclosure, my followup question will be...

If you answered Yes to the question above, WHO WAS IN CONTROL of those circumstances?

Circumstances don't matter in the realm of Jesus Christ our King. The Bible explains it all. God chooses, we do not.

I could have been raised by wolves and/or demons, but God had other plans for me and my future. Praise be to Him. I don't know why, nor do I care. God's glory prevails.
 
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I am curious how YOU would answer this question...

Are there ANY circumstances, OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, which had they been different, you might not have believed in Christ?

My answer is Yes. There are many. The first was that I was born to Christian parents in a country with few Christians. If I had been born to other parents I might not have believed in Christ.

It is a simple question and I did not use any fancy terms.

Are you willing to give us your answer.


P.S.

In full disclosure, my followup question will be...

If you answered Yes to the question above, WHO WAS IN CONTROL of those circumstances?

This will only hold true if people were isolated from each other without any external influences. We have the internet, media, TV, radio, and etc. People will hear the gospel, regardless. For people impossible to reach like the tribal people, we have missionaries to reach them. Christians are now about 2 billion around the globe.

It's an outright fallacy that if you were born in a non-Christian household, you'll surely end up non-Christian. People are now more connected than ever before.

And just because you were born in a Christian household doesn't mean you're a true Christian. Lots of cults, hypocrites, deceivers, and liars in the Christian world.
 
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