I chose vanilla ice cream last night

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Without it your argument is meaningless. You claim that the unregenerate nature is incapable of selfless behavior, and thus is incapable of being unselfish in any act.

Diug
I did not say the unregenerate were incapable of selfless behavior.. quote me.

What I will say is whatever is not of faith is sin.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Without it your argument is meaningless. You claim that the unregenerate nature is incapable of selfless behavior, and thus is incapable of being unselfish in any act.

Diug
Ditto :)

And we know in calvie land they always accuse the opposition faith is a work . Just the usual rhetoric and conflating.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
I chose vanilla ice cream last night.
Did your choice to choose vanilla save you? ;)
I chose vanilla ice cream last night. The strange thing is, as much as I like vanilla, it wasn't really turning me on. I was actually craving strawberry instead.

There were no other compelling reasons to choose vanilla, it wasn't cheaper, more healthy etc etc. Yet I chose it.
No, you didn't. God made you do that. You're a robot! 🤖
Ok that never happened, it was a parable. 😁
Yet it highlights and hits at the heart of the absurdity of libertarian free will theology.

Basic logic, and more importantly scripture, says we choose based upon desire.
The flesh sets its desire against the Spirit (Gal. 5:17), and those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh (Rom. 8:5).




Why is there no vomiting emoticon in this forum?
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Did your choice to choose vanilla save you? ;)

No, you didn't. God made you do that. You're a robot! 🤖

The flesh sets its desire against the Spirit (Gal. 5:17), and those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh (Rom. 8:5).




Why is there no vomiting emoticon in this forum?
Yep, if we choose sin it's because we were walking in the flesh and desired it more than faithfulness.

But we are led by our desires. We are not "free" from that.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
But we are led by our desires. We are not "free" from that.
People quite often choose something other than what they desire. Many things alter the desire-driven choice. The person who understands delayed gratification handles desires and the related choices much differently than the person lacking in any ability to delay gratification. Similarly, the person with an active and aware relationship with the indwelling Spirit of God not only has a completely different set of desires than the person lacking that relationship, they also have much greater diversity and liberty in the manner desires lead and the ability to make choices apart from desires. Replacing the determinism of God (robot soteriology) with the determinism of desire is just another form of determinism. It's worse because it leaves God out of the equation. It is a godless soteriology ;)! In general, your point is true and valid but it is not absolute. Care should be taken not to over-generalize to points not applicable.

Stick to the simple fact the person without the Spirit CANNOT choose or act Spiritually and your foundation will be firmly scriptural and logical. That guy's desire are different and he handles them differently. Content and method.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
People quite often choose something other than what they desire.

This is only true because we have multiple competing desires, and the greatest desire always wins. There are many factors that influence our desire. Doug pointed out reason factors into it. The understanding of delayed gratification factors into it. But in that case the greater desire is the the delayed gratification.

Replacing the determinism of God (robot soteriology) with the determinism of desire is just another form of determinism. It's worse because it leaves God out of the equation. It is a godless soteriology ;)!

Good point.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
People quite often choose something other than what they desire. Many things alter the desire-driven choice. The person who understands delayed gratification handles desires and the related choices much differently than the person lacking in any ability to delay gratification. Similarly, the person with an active and aware relationship with the indwelling Spirit of God not only has a completely different set of desires than the person lacking that relationship, they also have much greater diversity and liberty in the manner desires lead and the ability to make choices apart from desires. Replacing the determinism of God (robot soteriology) with the determinism of desire is just another form of determinism. It's worse because it leaves God out of the equation. It is a godless soteriology ;)! In general, your point is true and valid but it is not absolute. Care should be taken not to over-generalize to points not applicable.

Stick to the simple fact the person without the Spirit CANNOT choose or act Spiritually and your foundation will be firmly scriptural and logical. That guy's desire are different and he handles them differently. Content and method.
You have to desire to delay your gratification.

You are just pointing to a higher order desire.

We do what we want to do most. This is a self evident truth.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
This is only true because we have multiple competing desires, and the greatest desire always wins.
That is not true. Overgeneralizations are being made and the distinctions between conscious and subconscious desires is neglected. I recommend anyone interested in this matter of "desire" and how it reportedly drives choices do a simple word search in the Bible for the word "desire." There Bible says very little specifically about a causal relationship between desire and choice and what little it does say about desire is not synergistic. Whatever is concluded after reading those verses, it will be noted one of the overarching scriptures applicable to everything read in that search is Jeremiah 17:9's deceitfulness of the heart (few understand their desires or their influences) and the monergistic effects of God giving a sinner over to their desires (Ps. 81:12; Rom. 1:24; Gen. 3:16). Those desires are said to be unclean, shameful, dishonoring, etc. They are not vanilla versus strawberry (unless we deem those flavors inherently lethal ;)).
There are many factors that influence our desire.
Who is the "our" in that statement?

Most of those "factors" are unknown to the person. No one is making any choice freely when its influences in part or whole are unknown. This is all the more so for the unregenerate whose thinking is futile, heart darkened; those given over to their lusts and those hostile to God.
Doug pointed out reason factors into it.
I have not read that post(s) but an unregenerate reasoning is futile according to Romans 1. Not only is his/her thinking futile but his/her heart is darkened and deceitful above all else. Point of clarification: the heart may be many things. It may reason. It may even reason well on some occasion but above all else it is deceitful. It's that "above all else" that is the chief influence.

Therefore, at this junction in the discussion I will ask everyone two questions: 1) are we relying on the perceptions of our own personal experience(s) to render God's word? or 2) Are we submitting our personal experience and what we think we know about human volitional faculties to God's word and accepting He statements as the more authoritative of the two?
The understanding of delayed gratification factors into it.
It's not just a "factor." It can be quite deterministic and tyrannically so. Delayed gratification is just one of MANY developmental milestones a healthy human (cognitively healthy, emotionally healthy, volitionally healthy, relationally healthy, spiritually healthy, etc., etc., etc.) MUST accomplish in order to make freer choices (freer, not completely free). Some of the other necessary milestones are trust (usually accomplished within the first year of life) connection (usually within the first 3-4 years). Autonomy (also usually accomplished within the first few years of life). These and several others are necessary milestones in human development. Even the conversion of a six-year-old is dependent upon these things (although not identically to that of a 25-year-old or a 45-year-old). Anyone who has sat with a 28-year-old man who has not accomplished the very real and necessary milestone of delayed gratification can see the utter and profound bondage in which that man lives. Most may not be in such a sever condition, but we have deceived ourselves if we think we are so volitionally free as to not have any binding in the unregenerate sinful state.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

That's not averse we get to choose to believe or not believe. It's not a verse with which we have any options. That's the sovereign God's authoritative appraisal of the sinner's heart and he has given every single God denier over to the desires of that heart, that deceitful heart.
But in that case the greater desire is the delayed gratification.
No one desires delayed gratification. That is a learned skill, not a desire. Part of the problem in discussions like this is the confusing and conflating of thoughts, emotions, volition, and actions and the lack of understanding how little of it occurs outside of interpersonal relationships (all of which occurs outside of any relationship with God in the life of the unregenerate).
Good point.
Thanks. I have my moments ;).
 
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