"I desire mercy ...... "

Josheb

Well-known member
Good questions.

Does this apply?

2Early in the morning He went back into the temple courts.a All the people came to Him, and He sat down to teach them. 3The scribes and Pharisees, however, brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before them 4and said, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such a woman. So what do You say?”

6They said this to test Him, in order to have a basis for accusing Him. But Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with His finger.

7When they continued to question Him, He straightened up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” 8And again He bent down and wrote on the ground.

9When they heard this,b they began to go away one by one, beginning with the older ones, until only Jesus was left, with the woman standing there. 10Then Jesus straightened upc and asked her, “Woman, where are your accusers?d Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, Lord,” she answered.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”
Certainly, but given you asking the inquiry of this op and you now introducing this passage I think it up to you to clarify the application you see. Please do be specific.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Certainly, but given you asking the inquiry of this op and you now introducing this passage I think it up to you to clarify the application you see. Please do be specific.

For me it means what it says.

New American Standard Bible
Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE MERCY, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Or put another way, are we so post to be a sin offering? (selah)

Which is why I quoted the story about the woman caught in adultery.

Is there a back story to it?

Maybe, maybe not; but, even if there is, that is too much to go through.

Suffice it to say, Mercy and truth are through Jesus Christ.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
I must admit that I knew Civic was Johnny for a long time; but I promised him I wouldn't say anything. At the beginning, it didn't seem like that big of a deal to me. But as time went by, I started regretting it; because imo he changed in a bad way...

As Christians, we are to obey authority, and IMO that includes CARM.
And operating two accounts requires misrepresentation.
This brings up a WHOLE bunch of issues, trust-wise.
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
As Christians, we are to obey authority, and IMO that includes CARM.
And operating two accounts requires misrepresentation.
This brings up a WHOLE bunch of issues, trust-wise.
I mentioned that to him a time or two. IMO he doesn't look at Rule violation as Sin, but looks at it more like Rahab hiding the Spies; IE doing God a favor...
 

Josheb

Well-known member
For me it means what it says.

New American Standard Bible
Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE MERCY, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Or put another way, are we so post to be a sin offering? (selah)
I don't think so. Any offering that is on us would be that of Romans 12:1.
Which is why I quoted the story about the woman caught in adultery.
She was not any offering. Neither was anyone in that episode (except Jesus). His was the mercy given. His was the obedience, loyalty, kindness, and compassion. ALL of the rest of them were examples of Hosea's (and all the other prophets') disobedience for which that prophetic word was uttered. You said you read it to mean what it says, so what is stated that you find makes the adulteress a sin offering?
Is there a back story to it? Maybe, maybe not; but, even if there is, that is too much to go through.
Yes, and I believe I provided it. Jesus' words come from the OT and pertain to a condition that goes back at least as far as the Judges (when the roles of the civil and religious rule were unified and not divided - just as they are in Christ and the Church) if not all the way back to Genesis 1:1 ala John 1:12-14 and 1 Peter 1:19-20. The "back story" of scripture in part or whole is always Jesus; Jesus alive, dead, buried, and resurrected.
Suffice it to say, Mercy and truth are through Jesus Christ.
Mercy and sacrifice. The latter is dependent upon the former.


Although writing specifically about Jacob and Esau the words of Paul in Romans 9 can be generalized to all: God has mercy upon whom He has mercy, and that mercy is epitomized by grace in the sacrifice of His son. This is why, after having realized Jesus was quoting something God had spoken centuries earlier, I believe the mercy in question is His, not ours.

1 Timothy 1:12-17
I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

James, writing about those who've broken the law (which is all of us), put it this way,

James 2:12-13
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

We love because He first loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for us all (1 Jn. 4).
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
I don't think so. Any offering that is on us would be that of Romans 12:1.

She was not any offering. Neither was anyone in that episode (except Jesus). His was the mercy given. His was the obedience, loyalty, kindness, and compassion. ALL of the rest of them were examples of Hosea's (and all the other prophets') disobedience for which that prophetic word was uttered. You said you read it to mean what it says, so what is stated that you find makes the adulteress a sin offering?

Yes, and I believe I provided it. Jesus' words come from the OT and pertain to a condition that goes back at least as far as the Judges (when the roles of the civil and religious rule were unified and not divided - just as they are in Christ and the Church) if not all the way back to Genesis 1:1 ala John 1:12-14 and 1 Peter 1:19-20. The "back story" of scripture in part or whole is always Jesus; Jesus alive, dead, buried, and resurrected.

Mercy and sacrifice. The latter is dependent upon the former.


Although writing specifically about Jacob and Esau the words of Paul in Romans 9 can be generalized to all: God has mercy upon whom He has mercy, and that mercy is epitomized by grace in the sacrifice of His son. This is why, after having realized Jesus was quoting something God had spoken centuries earlier, I believe the mercy in question is His, not ours.

1 Timothy 1:12-17
I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

James, writing about those who've broken the law (which is all of us), put it this way,

James 2:12-13
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

We love because He first loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for us all (1 Jn. 4).

Thanks for the response.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
She was not any offering. Neither was anyone in that episode (except Jesus). His was the mercy given. His was the obedience, loyalty, kindness, and compassion. ALL of the rest of them were examples of Hosea's (and all the other prophets') disobedience for which that prophetic word was uttered. You said you read it to mean what it says, so what is stated that you find makes the adulteress a sin offering?

Bolded above ....

NEVER ..... said that.

Why would you even think I was saying that?

Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE MERCY, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
 
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Josheb

Well-known member
For me it means what it says.

New American Standard Bible
Now go and learn what this means: I DESIRE MERCY, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Or put another way, are we so post to be a sin offering? (selah)

Which is why I quoted the story about the woman caught in adultery.......

You said you read it to mean what it says, so what is stated that you find makes the adulteress a sin offering?
Bolded above ....

NEVER ..... said that.

Why would you even think I was saying that?

Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE MERCY, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

....
Post #82 above. Right at the top of this page. I think it because that is verifiable what you posted. Now that we have irrefutably established you did in fact state, "For me it means what it says," how aboout answering the questions asked.

  • Is it being suggested there are Calvinists who "club" others?
  • Will you clarify the application you see since you introduced the the account of the woman caught in adultery?
  • What is stated that you find makes the adulteress a sin offering?

And if I misunderstood any of it then simply clarify your own posts but don't tell me you never said things you clearly posted. If you mean you read one passage to mean what it says and another passage not to mean what it says, then it is up to you to clarify and explain that. Not me. More than one poster has asked you to answer your own question and comment on your own op.
Is this applicable to big club Calvinists? (those carrying a 'big club')

New American Standard Bible
Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Hmmmm..... yes, do please explain what you mean by "big club Calvinists," tell us what you think is the application of Matthew 9:13, and how it is applicable specifically to "big club Calvinists".


Looking forward with anticipation to reading the answer(s), hoping for cogent discourse and the entire thing isn't a petty and disappointing Cal-hating troll.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Post #82 above. Right at the top of this page. I think it because that is verifiable what you posted. Now that we have irrefutably established you did in fact state, "For me it means what it says," how aboout answering the questions asked.

  • Is it being suggested there are Calvinists who "club" others?
  • Will you clarify the application you see since you introduced the the account of the woman caught in adultery?
  • What is stated that you find makes the adulteress a sin offering?

And if I misunderstood any of it then simply clarify your own posts but don't tell me you never said things you clearly posted. If you mean you read one passage to mean what it says and another passage not to mean what it says, then it is up to you to clarify and explain that. Not me. More than one poster has asked you to answer your own question and comment on your own op.

Hmmmm..... yes, do please explain what you mean by "big club Calvinists," tell us what you think is the application of Matthew 9:13, and how it is applicable specifically to "big club Calvinists".


Looking forward with anticipation to reading the answer(s), hoping for cogent discourse and the entire thing isn't a petty and disappointing Cal-hating troll.

As a matter of course, no one, ever clubs another in a theological discussion. (sigh)

I was hoping you would answer post 90.

Noticed you did not. :confused:

You can if you want though.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
As a matter of course, no one, ever clubs another in a theological discussion. (sigh)
Not an answer to the question asked. What no one does as a matter of course does not mean this op isn't suggesting it of a specific group.
I was hoping you would answer post 90.

Noticed you did not. :confused:

You can if you want though.
I was hoping you would answer any of the questions asked or requests made prior to post 90. Noticed you did not. You could if you want, especially if you want further answers from me because I'm a big fan of parity in discussions and think the "dia-" in dialogue is important (for both content and method).


And I did in fact answer the question asked in post 90. Not only have I answered it specifically with words in the post I have addressed it methodologically. I am kindly and patiently waiting on op-relevant parity, and I do not seem to be the only poster doing so.

  • Is it being suggested there are Calvinists who "club" others?
  • Will you clarify the application you see since you introduced the the account of the woman caught in adultery?
  • What is stated that you find makes the adulteress a sin offering?
  • What is the op-relevant response to my op-reply?

Waiting....
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Not an answer to the question asked. What no one does as a matter of course does not mean this op isn't suggesting it of a specific group.

I was hoping you would answer any of the questions asked or requests made prior to post 90. Noticed you did not. You could if you want, especially if you want further answers from me because I'm a big fan of parity in discussions and think the "dia-" in dialogue is important (for both content and method).


And I did in fact answer the question asked in post 90. Not only have I answered it specifically with words in the post I have addressed it methodologically. I am kindly and patiently waiting on op-relevant parity, and I do not seem to be the only poster doing so.

  • Is it being suggested there are Calvinists who "club" others?
  • Will you clarify the application you see since you introduced the the account of the woman caught in adultery?
  • What is stated that you find makes the adulteress a sin offering?
  • What is the op-relevant response to my op-reply?

Waiting....

Post 90 .....

still looking for a response.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Let's try this ......

Back to the OP.

What do you think Jesus meant.

Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE MERCY, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Not your interpretation about what you what you thought I meant.

Or you could just answer post 90.

Either way.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
Post 90 .....

still looking for a response.
It can be found in Post 91.
Let's try this ......

Back to the OP.

What do you think Jesus meant.

Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE MERCY, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Not your interpretation about what you what you thought I meant.

Or you could just answer post 90.

Either way.
Are you bothering to read any of the other posters' posts? Any thought put into what's been posted? Any intent to discuss it? I have already answered and addressed the op. That content can be found in Posts 78, 81, and 86 above.


I do not believe the mercy and/or sacrifice to which Jesus is referring is that of the unregenerate sinner. Because he is referencing legal and prophetic precedent that OT content should be considered and when it is considered along with content from the epistolary it leads me to conclude the mercy/compassion and sacrifice referenced are that of God, not the unregenerate sinner. What mercy and sacrifice the sinner might contribute soteriologically can be done only after conversion as reported in the aforementioned Romans 12:1, and even then the mercy is clearly reported to be God's, not the sinners, and that sacrifice on our end is solely consequent, and causally dependent upon the prior sacrifice of God.

And that applies to everyone, not just Calvinists. I don't know what "big club Calvinists" might be but I hope it was not intended to impugn anyone.



Please stop asking me for answers I have already provided. Please address that content and answer the questions asked therein.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Nope ....

Post 91 was a non response to post 90.

I already addresed that.

How about back to the op and what you think Jesus meant?

Not what you think I was saying about it.

New American Standard Bible
Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE MERCY, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Any opinion here.
 
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HealTheLand

Active member
It can be found in Post 91.

Are you bothering to read any of the other posters' posts? Any thought put into what's been posted? Any intent to discuss it? I have already answered and addressed the op. That content can be found in Posts 78, 81, and 86 above.


I do not believe the mercy and/or sacrifice to which Jesus is referring is that of the unregenerate sinner. Because he is referencing legal and prophetic precedent that OT content should be considered and when it is considered along with content from the epistolary it leads me to conclude the mercy/compassion and sacrifice referenced are that of God, not the unregenerate sinner. What mercy and sacrifice the sinner might contribute soteriologically can be done only after conversion as reported in the aforementioned Romans 12:1, and even then the mercy is clearly reported to be God's, not the sinners, and that sacrifice on our end is solely consequent, and causally dependent upon the prior sacrifice of God.

And that applies to everyone, not just Calvinists. I don't know what "big club Calvinists" might be but I hope it was not intended to impugn anyone.



Please stop asking me for answers I have already provided. Please address that content and answer the questions asked therein.


why is Jesus so complicated that it is hard to read? ⚛️🔬
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It can be found in Post 91.

Are you bothering to read any of the other posters' posts? Any thought put into what's been posted? Any intent to discuss it? I have already answered and addressed the op. That content can be found in Posts 78, 81, and 86 above.


I do not believe the mercy and/or sacrifice to which Jesus is referring is that of the unregenerate sinner. Because he is referencing legal and prophetic precedent that OT content should be considered and when it is considered along with content from the epistolary it leads me to conclude the mercy/compassion and sacrifice referenced are that of God, not the unregenerate sinner. What mercy and sacrifice the sinner might contribute soteriologically can be done only after conversion as reported in the aforementioned Romans 12:1, and even then the mercy is clearly reported to be God's, not the sinners, and that sacrifice on our end is solely consequent, and causally dependent upon the prior sacrifice of God.

And that applies to everyone, not just Calvinists. I don't know what "big club Calvinists" might be but I hope it was not intended to impugn anyone.



Please stop asking me for answers I have already provided. Please address that content and answer the questions asked therein.
You hain't figured out he's a Troll yet...
 
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