I once heard a Catholic priest say.....

Nope. They bowed down because your sect leaders tell them to worship the inanimate object.
I'm not Protestant. The only Christian sects I know are Protestants, do they worship inanimate objects?
As has been shown on this board, you have no clue if it is Jesus or not. You just bow and worship the bread anyway.
Well, sorry for being clueless, if that is what you call it. It's too hard for me to keep up with the 40,000 different versions of God so I just keep the One True God before me.

JoeT
 
There is no accident. Your argument is that Catholics worshiping inanimate objects....which is idolatry...is OK because they do not know any better.
No, that is not my argument. That is your CARICATURE of my argument.

First, the Eucharist is God, not an idol, not bread, not wine, not an "inanimate object." Protestants refuse to worship the Eucharist becasue THEY do not know any better.

Second: my argument is that the priest was invalidly baptized, which meant his ordination was not valid. This is becasue Baptism is the gateway to all the other Sacraments. A person cannot receive any other Sacrament without being baptized. This mean that he TECHNICALLY celebrated no Masses. It also means that aside from the Sacrament of Baptism (which does not require ordination to the priesthood to celebrate) TECHNICALLY no other Sacrament was valid either. That means TECHNICALLY, there was no change in the bread and wine and no Mass. Did Catholics sin in worshipping bread and wine at the invalid Mass? Did the priest sin? NO. They had no reason to believe the Masses or other Sacramental celebrations were invalid. Thus, what they did, they did in good conscience.

This is not all that different from a spouse who discovers after 20 years of marriage---that the marriage was not valid becasue there was a previous marriage that was not disclosed at the time of the wedding and no one knew about it. Since there was no marriage, TECHNICALLY, the spouse committed adultery, since sex is for marriage only, according to the laws of God. But in actuality, the spouse committed no such act of adultery since the spouse had every reason to believe that the marriage was valid and lawful in the eyes of God.

By the way, as an aside---YOU PROTESTANTS are the ones who claim sin is sin. YOU are the ones who claim there is no Mortal Sin or Venial Sin, that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. Now you seem to be suggesting that idolatry is a sin WORSE than adultery. If sin is sin, than in the eyes of God, idolatry and adultery are equally bad.

Which is it? Is sin, sin, or are some sins worse than others?

Yet there is the rotting bread they worship which testifies otherwise. Your argument that you Catholics cannot possibly know any better will not fly.
But, as you saw above, that was not my argument. That was your CARICATURE of my argument.
The whole fact that Roman Catholics cannot tell the difference between Jesus Christ and a piece of rotting bread only highlights the rampant idolatry rather than excuse it.
No, what it highlights is what happens when a priest refuses to follow the proper formulas for Baptism. It highlights what happens when a priest thinks he knows better than the universal Church, and God, and takes matters into his own hands and changes the rite to suit his own personal tastes. It illustrates what happens when priests take ownership of something they do not personally own and does not belong to them.

The Sacraments belong to the Church universal, not any one priest. It is the job of a priest to celebrate the rituals as they were given to him. Note: it isn't that hard to say "I baptize you....." like the ritual says, rather than "We baptize...." If it IS to hard for the guy--he never should have made it through seminary.
 
They bowed down because it was the real presence of Christ, an omnipresent God, in the box.

JoeT

matthew 24:23
At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.

Luke 17:23-24
People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is!’ or ‘Look, here He is!’ Do not go out or chase after them. For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day.
 
I'm not Protestant.

That would partially explain the tendency to worship inanimate objects.

Well, sorry for being clueless, if that is what you call it.

Being clueless as to the difference between Jesus Christ and a piece of rotting bread is not something you merely apologize for. It is something to correct.

But some prefer the idolatry to the One, True God.
 
There is no accident. Your argument is that Catholics worshiping inanimate objects....which is idolatry...is OK because they do not know any better.
No, that is not my argument.

You're the one who likened it to someone UNKNOWINGLY in a marriage with someone who did not have a previous marriage annulled.

You are the one that said this is "adultery." Your word.


First, the Eucharist is God

I already proved that your church officially denies that this is the case at every Mass....yet you Catholics worship anyway.

, not an idol, not bread, not wine, not an "inanimate object."

The rotting bread does not lie. It is decomposing as you consume it.

My Lord does not decompose.


That means TECHNICALLY, there was no change in the bread and wine and no Mass.

Duh. An inanimate object...Catholics worshiped.

Idolatry.


Did Catholics sin in worshipping bread and wine at the invalid Mass? NO.

Worshiping inanimate objects is ALWAYS idolatry.

You cannot mistakenly worship rotting bread. Wake up!


They had no reason to believe the Masses or other Sacramental celebrations were invalid.

And here you just prove what I just said and which you denied:

Your argument is that Catholics worshiping inanimate objects....which is idolatry...is OK because they do not know any better.

You just made the SAME argument again. LOL.

Christ followers have EVERY REASON to never bow down and worship inanimate objects! You admit that Catholics just do it anyway, because they cannot tell the difference between Jesus Christ and a piece of bread.


Thus, what they did, they did in good conscience.

Idolatry can never be committed in good conscience.




This is not all that different from a spouse who discovers after 20 years of marriage

Not at all, because in the situation of marriage, information was missing or withheld.

Not that case with your rotting bread. The information is the same.



Which is it? Is sin, sin, or are some sins worse than others?

Both. You create a dichotomy where there is none.

The whole fact that Roman Catholics cannot tell the difference between Jesus Christ and a piece of rotting bread only highlights the rampant idolatry rather than excuse it.
No, what it highlights is what happens when a priest refuses to follow the proper formulas for Baptism.

Catholics blame their idolatry on what a priest did 30 years ago?

You think God will buy it?
 
No, that is not my argument. That is your CARICATURE of my argument.

First, the Eucharist is God, not an idol, not bread, not wine, not an "inanimate object." Protestants refuse to worship the Eucharist becasue THEY do not know any better.

Second: my argument is that the priest was invalidly baptized, which meant his ordination was not valid. This is becasue Baptism is the gateway to all the other Sacraments. A person cannot receive any other Sacrament without being baptized. This mean that he TECHNICALLY celebrated no Masses. It also means that aside from the Sacrament of Baptism (which does not require ordination to the priesthood to celebrate) TECHNICALLY no other Sacrament was valid either. That means TECHNICALLY, there was no change in the bread and wine and no Mass. Did Catholics sin in worshipping bread and wine at the invalid Mass? Did the priest sin? NO. They had no reason to believe the Masses or other Sacramental celebrations were invalid. Thus, what they did, they did in good conscience.

This is not all that different from a spouse who discovers after 20 years of marriage---that the marriage was not valid becasue there was a previous marriage that was not disclosed at the time of the wedding and no one knew about it. Since there was no marriage, TECHNICALLY, the spouse committed adultery, since sex is for marriage only, according to the laws of God. But in actuality, the spouse committed no such act of adultery since the spouse had every reason to believe that the marriage was valid and lawful in the eyes of God.

By the way, as an aside---YOU PROTESTANTS are the ones who claim sin is sin. YOU are the ones who claim there is no Mortal Sin or Venial Sin, that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. Now you seem to be suggesting that idolatry is a sin WORSE than adultery. If sin is sin, than in the eyes of God, idolatry and adultery are equally bad.

Which is it? Is sin, sin, or are some sins worse than others?


But, as you saw above, that was not my argument. That was your CARICATURE of my argument.

No, what it highlights is what happens when a priest refuses to follow the proper formulas for Baptism. It highlights what happens when a priest thinks he knows better than the universal Church, and God, and takes matters into his own hands and changes the rite to suit his own personal tastes. It illustrates what happens when priests take ownership of something they do not personally own and does not belong to them.

The Sacraments belong to the Church universal, not any one priest. It is the job of a priest to celebrate the rituals as they were given to him. Note: it isn't that hard to say "I baptize you....." like the ritual says, rather than "We baptize...." If it IS to hard for the guy--he never should have made it through seminary.
First, the Eucharist is God, not an idol, not bread, not wine, not an "inanimate object.

Its none of those things but to also go on to say its not inanimate? What exactly have you seen it do? Does it talk or walk? If that is your god why is it lifeless? Or is it walking and talking under the 'appearance' of a pile of wafers in a cup?
 
Nope. They bowed down because your sect leaders tell them to worship the inanimate object.

As has been shown on this board, you have no clue if it is Jesus or not. You just bow and worship the bread anyway.
So true! And seeing is believing!
If you check the "Real Presence" website, a person can know when and where to go to 'Eucharistic adoration.' Visiting St. Patrick's Cathedral in the city of New York, and behind the main altar where Mass is performed, there was an area where people were kneeling and praying before a monstrance. And behind this monstrance that contained a consecrated Host, sat a very large statue of Mary. Several custodians were watching over the area making sure that the adorers would be permitted to adore in silence.
 
Its none of those things but to also go on to say its not inanimate? What exactly have you seen it do? Does it talk or walk? If that is your god why is it lifeless? Or is it walking and talking under the 'appearance' of a pile of wafers in a cup?
Scripture is lifeless yet you say it is the Living Word of God.

If the dead letter of Scripture is alive, why can't God as present under the signs of bread and wine be alive?
 
I see youre still evading answering the question. Answer mine and i'll answer yours.
I DID answer your question. Please go back and re-read.

Here it is again:

YOU say Scripture is alive despite the fact that it is a dead letter. Indeed it is alive.

That being the case, why is bread and wine changed to the body and blood of Christ lifeless? If a dead letter can be living, why can't the body and blood of Christ be living under the signs of bread and wine?
 
YOU say Scripture is alive despite the fact that it is a dead letter. Indeed it is alive.

Is the Word of God dead or alive? You Catholics need to make up your mind.

That being the case, why is bread and wine changed to the body and blood of Christ lifeless?

Because nothing is changed. It is rotting bread that is decomposing as it is served to you.

My Lord does not decompose.

Christ says He is away bodily. Catholics call Him a liar and say He is not away.

Christ says that if He is not away, we do not have the Holy Spirit. In effect, Catholics confess they do not have the Holy Spirit.
 
Is the Word of God dead or alive? You Catholics need to make up your mind.

The Word of God is ALWAYS living wherever or however it is expressed. The Word of God in Scripture is living--because it is the Word of God. It is dead letter yes, but those words are the Word of God and thus are in a mystical sense, living.

The Word of God in the Eucharist appears under the signs of bread and wine, and thus, are also in a mystical sense living.
Because nothing is changed. It is rotting bread that is decomposing as it is served to you.
Yeah, in YOUR sect, nothing changes.
My Lord does not decompose.
Who said he did?
Christ says He is away bodily.
Of course He is away bodily. That is why His presence is under the sign of bread and wine, not according to bodily flesh.
Catholics call Him a liar and say He is not away.
He is always present to us, but we walk by Faith, not sight. We do this with the Eucharist. We perceive God according to Faith, not sight.
Christ says that if He is not away, we do not have the Holy Spirit. In effect, Catholics confess they do not have the Holy Spirit.
Of course we have the Holy Spirit, but--as I am sure you know---the Holy Spirit is not Christ, and visa-versa. The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person of the Blessed Trinity. Christ and the Holy Spirit are God, yes, but they are not equivalent--as if the Holy Spirit is Christ and visa-versa.
 
I DID answer your question. Please go back and re-read.

Here it is again:

YOU say Scripture is alive despite the fact that it is a dead letter. Indeed it is alive.

That being the case, why is bread and wine changed to the body and blood of Christ lifeless? If a dead letter can be living, why can't the body and blood of Christ be living under the signs of bread and wine?
Wrong, my initial question was regarding you saying the host was 'not inanimate'. I want to know what you see it doing that you think its somehow animated? That was my question. Care to answer that one? Here are your words;

romishpopishorganist said:
No, that is not my argument. That is your CARICATURE of my argument.

First, the Eucharist is God, not an idol, not bread, not wine, not an "inanimate object."

And to reiterate, its not god either.
 
My Lord does not decompose.
Who said he did?

Pssst....your Eucharist decomposes.

Please note that your sect teaches that NO bread remains after consecration: only Jesus, whole and entire.

Your Eucharist rots. God does not rot.

It is so simple that no Catholic will ever have any excuse that they did not know.


Christ says He is away bodily.
Of course He is away bodily. That is why His presence is under the sign of bread and wine, not according to bodily flesh.

You are denying Catholic dogma which says that is His body you are eating.

"This is my body."

LOL.

Catholics promoting their Eucharist: that is not His body! No bodily flesh there at all!

LOL.

"Eat my flesh"

Don't worry. Most Catholics don't believe He is there bodily either.


We perceive God according to Faith, not sight.

As I have already proven, you Catholics perceive absolutely NOTHING. Totally blind.

That is why you worship whatever wafer your priest puts in front of you.
 
Pssst....your Eucharist decomposes.
No it doesn't. Jesus cannot decompose. What decomposes are the signs of bread and wine.
Please note that your sect teaches that NO bread remains after consecration: only Jesus, whole and entire.
Please note that you cite only half the story.

What changes is the SUBSTANCE of the bread and wine. The ACCIDENTS (appearances) do NOT. WHat decomposes are the APPEARENCES.
Your Eucharist rots. God does not rot.
No. What "rots" are the Eucharistic signs under which Jesus appears: bread and wine.
Don't worry. Most Catholics don't believe He is there bodily either.
So? Catholicism isn't a popularity contest or a straw pole. What Joe Catholic believes or unbelieves does not effect what is true. Most Catholics support abortion too. Does this entail our teaching on abortion is wrong or must be changed?
As I have already proven, you Catholics perceive absolutely NOTHING. Totally blind.
What is perceived are the Eucharistic signs of bread and wine.
 
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Is Scripture inanimate?
Good grief do you people ever answer questions? I haven't made the claims you are. Can we stick with what you said as opposed to what you'd like to think i said but didn't? Your claim is that the host is "not inanimate." And i've asked a follow up question twice. Can you answer? If you want to discuss scripture thats fine, after you answer what i've asked you.
 
No it doesn't. Jesus cannot decompose. What decomposes are the signs of bread and wine.

Please note that you cite only half the story.

What changes is the SUBSTANCE of the bread and wine. The ACCIDENTS (appearances) do NOT. WHat decomposes are the APPEARENCES.

No. What "rots" are the Eucharistic signs under which Jesus appears: bread and wine.

So? Catholicism isn't a popularity contest or a straw pole. What Joe Catholic believes or unbelieves does not effect what is true. Most Catholics support abortion too. Does this entail our teaching on abortion is wrong or must be changed?

What is perceived are the Eucharistic signs of bread and wine.
Not a single thing in God's Word that even alludes to Jesus Christ appearing as a WAFER!
Your Roman Catholic Church makes things up for it's 'flock' to believe in order to 'keep control.'
"What is perceived" is all in your deeply-programed Roman Catholic childish imagination.

The truth is in the New Testament and history itself confirms that Jesus fulfilled a multitude of prophecies and much more. It is written that after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He appeared bodily -NOT IN A BREAD WAFER- to His disciples and many others before ascending bodily into heaven:

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep." (1 Corinthian 15: 3-6)

"And He led them out as far as to Bethany, and He lifted up His hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while He blessed them, He was parted from them, and carried up into Heaven. "(Luke 24: 50-51)

"And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld Him, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight." (Acts 1:9)

The Word of God plainly states that Jesus is currently at the right hand of the Father and that He is coming again! - as the Son of God, NOT as a bread wafer!
 
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