I reject the Rcc, its pope, its marian dogmas, its claim to be the one, true church..

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

So you jump from Matthew to John on two different subjects. One speaking of the coming TRIBULATION at the end of times, and one is speaking of our every day tribulations.
You’re all over the place with no discernment whatsoever.
 
So you jump from Matthew to John on two different subjects. One speaking of the coming TRIBULATION at the end of times, and one is speaking of our every day tribulations.
You’re all over the place with no discernment whatsoever.
So there are different ways of salvation for different Christians? Right.
 
The devil can't take what belongs to Christ....His sheep shall never perish....see my sig line.

And even a sheep that wanders is never lost....the Good shepherd will leave the 99 to find the lost sheep and bring him back safely to the fold.
As a mere mortal you haven't got that God's eye view that already knows outcomes like which are sheep and which are goats. There are lots of people that have adamantly believed they are sheep but have later left the flock for atheism or some other non Christian ideal. Before anyones life on earth has ended, we are still on that journey facing those temptations that 'callings' of the devil.
 
We are tempted by many things. But if one is truly born again by the Spirit, Christ Himself said that no one could snatch them out of His hand. As Peter wrote that we are kept by the power of God. If someone leaves the faith the were never Of Christ's sheep in the first place.
Which is why the type of certainty that you are describing can not be valid until Judgment Day. It is why Scripture warns us "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." (1Pet5 8)
 
As a mere mortal you haven't got that God's eye view that already knows outcomes like which are sheep and which are goats.
Totally irrelevant to what I said. I don’t need Gods eye view to know what scripture says.
There are lots of people that have adamantly believed they are sheep but have later left the flock for atheism or some other non Christian ideal.
Still irrelevant to what I said. I don’t need to know.
Before anyones life on earth has ended, we are still on that journey facing those temptations that 'callings' of the devil.
Still irrelevant to what I said.
 
Totally irrelevant to what I said. I don’t need Gods eye view to know what scripture says.

Still irrelevant to what I said. I don’t need to know.

Still irrelevant to what I said.
I agree with all the scripture references regarding the lost sheep and the sheep and the goats. But as a human being, I have that strong awareness of my limitations to see the outcomes from Gods point of view. How do nonCCs regard the fact of these human limitations? Do you feel you no longer have them when you become Christian?
 
I agree with all the scripture references regarding the lost sheep and the sheep and the goats. But as a human being, I have that strong awareness of my limitations to see the outcomes from Gods point of view.

You don't have to see the outcomes of anyone other than yourself. You should know whether you belong to Him or not.
How do nonCCs regard the fact of these human limitations? Do you feel you no longer have them when you become Christian?

It's not my job to know the outcome of everyone that claims the name Christian, so I have no idea why you think you need to.
 
Which is why the type of certainty that you are describing can not be valid until Judgment Day. It is why Scripture warns us "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." (1Pet5 8)
Yes we can be certain because of Jesus' word to us. God promises that if we fully trust what Christ did on the cross for our salvation we have His salvation. Jesus fully did what He came to do. It is finished, His work of redemption is done. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit Who reveals to our spirit that we are children of God. Rom. 8:16. John 20:31 says that these things which he wrote was so people may believe and believing may have life in His name.
God saves ALL who believe (trust) that Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, that He was buried, and on the third day, was raised from the grave, according to the scriptures, which is the gospel and is THE power of God for salvation to anyone who believes.1 Cor. 1:16. God's Holy Word is our assurance of salvation. Now we won't fully realize the benefit of salvation till we die, but we most certainly know we are saved. Now if one believes their works have to help Christ save them, then no, they will never have assurance because they are not trusting Christ and are actually denying His atoning work on the cross. ( The Gospel) They have no salvation, much less assurance of salvation.
 
I agree with all the scripture references regarding the lost sheep and the sheep and the goats. But as a human being, I have that strong awareness of my limitations to see the outcomes from Gods point of view. How do nonCCs regard the fact of these human limitations? Do you feel you no longer have them when you become Christian?
We will NEVER leave this world perfectly sinless. If we could do that then Jesus would not have had to die on the cross. But He suffered and died in our place if we are fully trusting in His atoning work, and our sins, the punishment, and penalty of our sins are paid for and we are washed by His blood. And He took the certificate of debt we owe for them and nailed it to the cross. Col. 2:14 Thus we are justified (just as if we had never sinned).
 
...its claimed "history" of having apostolic succession from Peter until today...well, I just reject everything that is the Rcc
Yeah, we know it is all a lie. That there was ever one Christian Church from the beginning that all recognized as the one and only Christian Church on earth with a Bishop based in Rome. That in the 11th century there was a great schism in Christendom that resulted in two Christian Church's made up of the East and the Western branches. That down the road there was another big schism in Christianity when a wayward Catholic priest went off on his own. And then the rapid proliferation of non-orthodox believing churches, one right after another. Yep, it is all a lie, none of it ever happened, even the secular historians lied.
 
...its claimed "history" of having apostolic succession from Peter until today...well, I just reject everything that is the Rcc but I claim Jesus as my Lord, God and Savior. I repented of my sins, truly turned from my past sins, accepted Jesus, believed on Him that He died and was resurrected for the forgiveness of my sins and was later baptized as a public display of the old man dying and the new creation being risen. Still the Rcc teaches I am anathema. But do you, as a Rc believe I saved?
When it comes who is and who is not saved---God is the judge. I make no judgements.

Are you saved? That is between you and God.
 
And if your church says otherwise?
My Church does not say otherwise.

Lest you quote "It is necessary for salvation for all people to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" and or "Outside the Church, no salvation" those quotes have been debated on this site before--ad nauseam.

Contextually, the first one simply means to assert that it is the pope, not the king or emperor who has final authority in spiritual matters--matters pertaining to the Church. What the quote is saying in other words is this: "The pope, not the emperor is the final authority in the Church on spiritual matters."

"Outside the Church no salvation" is actually not a good translation of the Latin. In Latin, "Extra" has two meanings. Extra can mean "outside" but it can also mean "without." The statement, then should be translated as "Without the Church there is no salvation" not "Outside the Church there is no salvation." The Church is the Body of Christ, the means by which God is present on earth. Because God and the Church are bound together, it is the Church that makes present the graces of salvation merited by Christ. Hence, without the Church there is no salvation.

Now you certainly disagree that the pope is the final authority in spiritual matters. You believe the individual is the final arbiter. Whatever. It does not matter what you believe for the purposes of this post, since I am just explaining Catholic teaching. You also disagree that the Church makes present the graves of salvation merited by Christ. Again, fine. That does not effect the point I am making which is to explain Catholic teaching.

I repeat: whether or not you are saved is between you and God.
 
Ncc's don't know 'hope' in the sense that Catholics do. They think of it as 'wishing'. But we understand hope as a 'confident expectation'. That distinguishes an attitude of presumption from the rightly ordered awe of Gods mercy, patience and the undeserved grace we receive.
Can you cite someone saying we believe hope = wishing? It's not what I've ever said here. Hope is a joyful expectation just like Paul describes in Phil 3:20....we eagerly wait for our savior the Lord Jesus Christ. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
 
My Church does not say otherwise.
Lest you quote "It is necessary for salvation for all people to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" and or "Outside the Church, no salvation" those quotes have been debated on this site before--ad nauseam.
Contextually, the first one simply means to assert that it is the pope, not the king or emperor who has final authority in spiritual matters--matters pertaining to the Church. What the quote is saying in other words is this: "The pope, not the emperor is the final authority in the Church on spiritual matters."
Context is very important. So when your church says taking the eucharist is required for salvation, what then? What of those of us who deny that the wafer and wine are the literal body and blood of Christ. What, when prayers in your church state the Rc Mary is the only gate to heaven and must be entered only through her? What of:

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)
Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)
“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)
Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)
Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)
Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

In the current age of ecumenism and interreligious dialogue, the Church’s infallible dogma nulla salus has been all but ignored. We now often hear that the Catholic Church has only the “fullness” of truth as opposed to being the one and only ark of salvation. We even hear Catholics claim that the Protestant sects are eminently serviceable religions in their own right, instead of calling them what they really are: man-made institutions that are rife with heresy and immorality and which were created in opposition to the one true Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, the kingdom of God.

Pius IX condemned the notion that those outside the Catholic Church have a good hope of eternal life. Entertaining such an idea undermines the Church’s infallible teaching that outside of her there is no salvation. Such a false view results in a wellspring of indifferentism which has already infected the Church and the world today. Pius XI clarified that those who are invincibly ignorant of the Church may still be saved, but this is a narrow exception to the divine rule. How many are truly ignorant of the claims of Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church? Only God knows, and God alone is the Judge. Pius IX has told us that it is unlawful to proceed to further inquiry about the salvation of those outside the Church. Instead, we continue to labor in the harvest by planting the seed, and leave the growing to God.

But context, right? Well, that's alot of context to ignore. You seem out of step with the church you claim is the one, true church.
"Outside the Church no salvation" is actually not a good translation of the Latin. In Latin, "Extra" has two meanings. Extra can mean "outside" but it can also mean "without." The statement, then should be translated as "Without the Church there is no salvation" not "Outside the Church there is no salvation." The Church is the Body of Christ, the means by which God is present on earth. Because God and the Church are bound together, it is the Church that makes present the graces of salvation merited by Christ. Hence, without the Church there is no salvation.

Now you certainly disagree that the pope is the final authority in spiritual matters. You believe the individual is the final arbiter. Whatever. It does not matter what you believe for the purposes of this post, since I am just explaining Catholic teaching. You also disagree that the Church makes present the graves of salvation merited by Christ. Again, fine. That does not effect the point I am making which is to explain Catholic teaching.

I repeat: whether or not you are saved is between you and God.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top