I think Trinitarians and Unitarians will both disagree with me on this...

I think Trinitarians and Unitarians will both disagree with me on this...

I believe the PERSON who said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you" is the SAME PERSON who said “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Genesis 12:1 ESV... Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you."

John 8:58 ESV... Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

Are there any Trinitarians or Unitarians on this forum who AGREE with my statement above?

If not, please tell why you believe those two PERSONS are NOT the same.


P.S.

And I believe that Person is YHWH God.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 

Cynthia

Member
I think Trinitarians and Unitarians will both disagree with me on this...

I believe the PERSON who said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you" is the SAME PERSON who said “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Genesis 12:1 ESV... Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you."

John 8:58 ESV... Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

Are there any Trinitarians or Unitarians on this forum who AGREE with my statement above?

If not, please tell why you believe those two PERSONS are NOT the same.



P.S.

And I believe that Person is YHWH God.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
I agree. This is the teaching of the church. Not a shocker.
 
I agree. This is the teaching of the church. Not a shocker.

I am glad you agree with me on that! But just to clarify...

You are saying that the SECOND Person of the Trinity (and not the FIRST Person of the Trinity) said "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you". Correct?

If Yes, can you provide a link to "the teaching of the church" that states that? I was having difficulty finding any church catechism etc that says it.


Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with me on this...

I believe the PERSON who said "Let there be light" is the SAME PERSON who said “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Genesis 1:3 ESV... And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

John 8:58 ESV... Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
 

Johnnyb

New member
I think Trinitarians and Unitarians will both disagree with me on this...

I believe the PERSON who said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you" is the SAME PERSON who said “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Genesis 12:1 ESV... Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you."

John 8:58 ESV... Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

Are there any Trinitarians or Unitarians on this forum who AGREE with my statement above?

If not, please tell why you believe those two PERSONS are NOT the same.



P.S.

And I believe that Person is YHWH God.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
No, as a BU (Biblical Unitarian) I do NOT agree that "Jesus from Nazareth, a man" was the SAME person who told Abram to leave his country, and his father's house, to a land that God would show him.

The reason is simple: Acts 3:13 unquestionably distinguishes The God of Abraham from Jesus.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go" (Acts 3:13, NIV)

In short, as the above passage clearly shows, Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham, but His servant.
 
No, as a BU (Biblical Unitarian) I do NOT agree that "Jesus from Nazareth, a man" was the SAME person who told Abram to leave his country, and his father's house, to a land that God would show him.

The reason is simple: Acts 3:13 unquestionably distinguishes The God of Abraham from Jesus.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go" (Acts 3:13, NIV)

In short, as the above passage clearly shows, Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham, but His servant.

As I said in the OP, I think Unitarians will disagree with me on this. You are proving my point.

I agree that there is a distinction between "God" and "Jesus". I believe the distinction is that "God" refers to YHWH in transcendence and "Jesus" refers to YHWH in immanence as a human (incarnate / appeared in the flesh / became flesh).

John 1:1,14 NIV... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 Timothy 3:16 NIV... Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

Are YOU able to provide an overview of what YOU believe? Here is mine...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 

Cynthia

Member
I am glad you agree with me on that! But just to clarify...

You are saying that the SECOND Person of the Trinity (and not the FIRST Person of the Trinity) said "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you". Correct?

If Yes, can you provide a link to "the teaching of the church" that states that? I was having difficulty finding any church catechism etc that says it.


Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with me on this...

I believe the PERSON who said "Let there be light" is the SAME PERSON who said “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Genesis 1:3 ESV... And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

John 8:58 ESV... Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Heb 1:1-2 states ...by his Son, whom he (the Father) appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made he universe.
vs 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word....

I don't like to quote from catechisms as they often use wording not found in the scriptures and which invite difficulty. There are several lying around here, one from Luther, one from the Greek Orthodox Church. But I will not quote them as I said...

Jesus also said as you mentioned earlier I believe, 'Before Abraham was I AM' or something close. I am rushed and should not respond from memory entirely.
 
I think Trinitarians and Unitarians will both disagree with me on this...

I believe the PERSON who said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you" is the SAME PERSON who said “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Genesis 12:1 ESV... Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you."

John 8:58 ESV... Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

Are there any Trinitarians or Unitarians on this forum who AGREE with my statement above?

If not, please tell why you believe those two PERSONS are NOT the same.



P.S.

And I believe that Person is YHWH God.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

Jesus did say that he spoke the words of the Father just as God had promised long before.

"I will put MY words in his mouth" Deut 18:18
 
Jesus did say that he spoke the words of the Father just as God had promised long before.

"I will put MY words in his mouth" Deut 18:18

I can't tell, are you saying you AGREE or DISAGREE with this statement...

The PERSON who said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you" is the SAME PERSON who said “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

So for clarification, which is it...

AGREE or DISAGREE
 
Heb 1:1-2 states ...by his Son, whom he (the Father) appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made he universe.
vs 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word....

I don't like to quote from catechisms as they often use wording not found in the scriptures and which invite difficulty. There are several lying around here, one from Luther, one from the Greek Orthodox Church. But I will not quote them as I said...

Jesus also said as you mentioned earlier I believe, 'Before Abraham was I AM' or something close. I am rushed and should not respond from memory entirely.

Read that again more carefully from the beginning.

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; the one who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true.” 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I am testifying about Myself, My testimony is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17 Even in your Law it has been written that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple area; and no one arrested Him, because His hour had not yet come. 21 Then He said again to them, “I am going away, and you will look for Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” 25 Then they were saying to Him, Who are You?” Jesus said to them, What I told you at the beginning."


Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world.... unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.
 

Cynthia

Member
Read that again more carefully from the beginning.

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; the one who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true.” 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I am testifying about Myself, My testimony is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17 Even in your Law it has been written that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple area; and no one arrested Him, because His hour had not yet come. 21 Then He said again to them, “I am going away, and you will look for Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” 25 Then they were saying to Him, Who are You?” Jesus said to them, What I told you at the beginning."


Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world.... unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.
the OP was about the passage in John 8:58.
 
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