I want to talk with a militant atheist on God exists or not.

Furion

Well-known member
No, I do not mean that. I have noticed that people believe in a God that reflects their own personality. For example, former Arch Bishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams who is a civilised, educated and caring man does not believe in a God that sends people to suffer in torment for eternity. Whereas, right wing fundamentalist Christians who are quite judgemental do.
The Jews of Christ's day also created a god of their imagining. Christ corrected them, said and demonstrated...God, and what God wants. Unless you are an imbecile, the message came through to you, 2000 years later.
 

rossum

Well-known member
There is a beginning to some object or condition p iff there is some time t where p holds, and no time prior to t where p holds.
I agree, however, there is an interesting wrinkle to this definition. Let p = "Time exists". If p does not hold then there is no time in existence, hence time does not have a beginning. There was no time when time did not exist and hence time did not have a beginning. :)
 

yrger

Member
yrger said:
Thanks, dear Nouveau, for concurring with me that there are entities in existence with a beginning.

You can also ask me to concur with you on something that you in your honest intelligent productive thinking see to be most decisive in the resolution of the issue God exists or not.

Now, here is the next thing I like you to concur with me on, namely, do you concur with me that you and I we have a beginning to our existence.

We can skip a long question by question attempt at some logical syllogism, given that you appreciate simplicity, if you can answer 1 question:

Do you believe in a disembodied sentient will that commands things into creation that you call God or do you simply believe God is nature and has no will of its own - it's just causal?

If you tell us that, then we can get down to the real discussion about whether the "nature" of the god you believe in has merit.


1. Do you believe in a disembodied sentient will that commands things into creation that you call God or do you simply believe God is nature and has no will of its own - it's just causal?

My answer: Let you and me concur that there is the existence of the process of causation.

2. If you tell us that, then we can get down to the real discussion about whether the "nature" of the god you believe in has merit.

My answer: Let us concur on God as first cause and last cause of everything with a beginning.

Here is my concept of God:
"God in concept is the creator of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

What is your concept of God, God with the G in upper case?

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5wize

Well-known member
1. Do you believe in a disembodied sentient will that commands things into creation that you call God or do you simply believe God is nature and has no will of its own - it's just causal?

My answer: Let you and me concur that there is the existence of the process of causation.

2. If you tell us that, then we can get down to the real discussion about whether the "nature" of the god you believe in has merit.

My answer: Let us concur on God as first cause and last cause of everything with a beginning.

Here is my concept of God:
"God in concept is the creator of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

What is your concept of God, God with the G in upper case?

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You state: "My answer: Let us concur on God as first cause and last cause of everything with a beginning."

I don't care what you call your first and last causal agent. I care what the nature of that first and last causal agent is.

Is the nature of that which you call God (the first and last causal agent.) a disembodied sentient will that commands things into creation or do you simply believe God is causal nature and has no will of its own?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
The Jews of Christ's day also created a god of their imagining. Christ corrected them, said and demonstrated...God, and what God wants. Unless you are an imbecile, the message came through to you, 2000 years later.
What a moronic, content free statement. No wonder you believe this nonsense if you think like you do.
 

yrger

Member
You state: "My answer: Let us concur on God as first cause and last cause of everything with a beginning."

I don't care what you call your first and last causal agent. I care what the nature of that first and last causal agent is.

Is the nature of that which you call God (the first and last causal agent.) a disembodied sentient will that commands things into creation or do you simply believe God is causal nature and has no will of its own?


Well, let you define what is nature and give examples from daily life, not from mental speculation.

But what is your end objective at all?
 

5wize

Well-known member
Well, let you define what is nature and give examples from daily life, not from mental speculation.

But what is your end objective at all?
I am not mentally speculating on what nature is. The dictionary definition of nature, which is a definition we share, is good enough. If you define nature differently than that, then that is something WE need to know about you and not something you need to know about those of us that already accept the common definition.

My end objective is to assess whether the characteristics of what you call God are a sentient disembodied will containing agency or whether you are merely a pantheist that believes that the reality of existence we find in nature, as nature is commonly defined, is your definition of a causal God.

That is the end game of the entire post, not just mine, and I'd rather get there than wander through pages of a potential syllogism. We both know that is where this is leading.... so let's go there and then deconstruct a potential syllogism from the end goal.
 
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yrger

Member
Please then just tell me what is your argument that God does not exist, okay?

Here is my concept of God:
"God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning."

What is your concept of God, God with the G in upper case?
 

5wize

Well-known member
Please then just tell me what is your argument that God does not exist, okay?

Here is my concept of God:
"God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning."

What is your concept of God, God with the G in upper case?
Your concept doesn't have enough conceptual form to address a specific negation. If you answer the question, you will have provided enough form to your argument as to anchor a negation. If you answer the question, I will certainly offer my negation:

Again: Is the nature of that which you call God (the first and last causal agent.) a disembodied sentient will that commands things into creation or do you simply believe God is causal nature and has no will of its own?
 

yrger

Member
Your concept doesn't have enough conceptual form to address a specific negation. If you answer the question, you will have provided enough form to your argument as to anchor a negation. If you answer the question, I will certainly offer my negation:

Again: Is the nature of that which you call God (the first and last causal agent.) a disembodied sentient will that commands things into creation or do you simply believe God is causal nature and has no will of its own?


Do you have any concept of God at all, God with the G in upper case, since your position is that God does not exist.

I tell you already time and again that God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

So, as you want to argue that no God exists, then you will miss my God if you keep on and on and on with your nature this and nature that and disembodied sentient, etc etc etc.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Do you have any concept of God at all, God with the G in upper case, since your position is that God does not exist.

I tell you already time and again that God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

So, as you want to argue that no God exists, then you will miss my God if you keep on and on and on with your nature this and nature that and disembodied sentient, etc etc etc.
I don't think you comprehend how incoherent your question to me is:

To paraphrase you - "Do I have a concept of God that I think does not exist?"

Yeah, I have a lot of those. Guess what? You have a lot of those too. I'd rather focus on one though - the one you think actually exists, but I don't have enough information.

Now look at my question to you, It is clear and well defined and can be answered yes or no:

Is this "creator cause" you are ranting on about a sentient willful agent or not?
 
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yrger

Member
If you can't understand my concept of God, namely, God is in concept the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, you are of course free to deny the existence of God according to your nature this and nature that and also disembodied sentient etc etc etc kind of a God whatever.

I will just tell you, your God is reminiscent of the flying spaghetti monster of current militant atheists, who learned from one demised Bertrand Russell comparing God to an orbiting teapot in space.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I agree, however, there is an interesting wrinkle to this definition. Let p = "Time exists". If p does not hold then there is no time in existence, hence time does not have a beginning. There was no time when time did not exist and hence time did not have a beginning. :)
I carefully worded the definition so that it will apply to both beginnings in time and beginnings of time.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
You can also ask me to concur with you on something that you in your honest intelligent productive thinking see to be most decisive in the resolution of the issue God exists or not.
Thank you. Yrger, please indicate whether or not you concur with me on the following two definitions:

There is a beginning to some object or condition p iff there is some time t where p holds, and no time prior to t where p holds.
An infinite causal regress is where every event is an effect caused by some prior cause, such that there is no beginning to the sequence.

Once you do this, I will then answer your next question.
 

5wize

Well-known member
If you can't understand my concept of God, namely, God is in concept the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, you are of course free to deny the existence of God according to your nature this and nature that and also disembodied sentient etc etc etc kind of a God whatever.

I will just tell you, your God is reminiscent of the flying spaghetti monster of current militant atheists, who learned from one demised Bertrand Russell comparing God to an orbiting teapot in space.
I honestly did not follow any of that. I have no concept of some sentient tea-pot god that I already don't believe in that you could call a flying spaghetti monster.

You are acting small and cornered. Be brave instead. Here's the simple question again:

Is this "creator cause" you are ranting on about a sentient willful agent or not?

Simple yes or no will get this interchange off the ground. But right now, you are prattling on about some ambiguous concept of some "creator cause" thing (actually I don't even know if you think it is a thing), that you gave the arbitrary label of God. That just sounds like pantheism.
 
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rossum

Well-known member
If you can't understand my concept of God, namely, God is in concept the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning
Does something like the cosmologists' multiverse -- the cause of the Big Bang -- meet your definition of God? If not, then what properties of God is the multiverse lacking?
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
Here is my concept of God:
"God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning."
So your concept of God is an infantile attempt to condense all of reality into a form that fits your limited grasp of reality.
Man is caused by woman.
The universe is caused by reality.
Novels have a beginning. And most are caused by authors (plural)
 

yrger

Member
[ . . . . ]


Please, dear Nouveau, you have not yet determined to concur or not with my latest request for concurrence, see text within " " in my post reproduced below.

Yrger wrote Yesterday at 11:59 PM #79
https://forums.carm.org/threads/i-w...t-atheist-on-god-exists-or-not.424/post-21435
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Nouveau said:
Yes, of course I agree there are things with beginnings.

[ . . . . ]


Thanks, dear Nouveau, for concurring with me that there are entities in existence with a beginning.

You can also ask me to concur with you on something that you in your honest intelligent productive thinking see to be most decisive in the resolution of the issue God exists or not.

"Now, here is the next thing I like you to concur with me on, namely, do you concur with me that you and I we have a beginning to our existence."


So, do you or don't you concur with me that you and I we have a beginning to our existence?




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