If ό Θεός is the NT designate name for God the Father of Jesus....

Well, cjab, if I were to use only the words that are found in the Bible to have this discussion, you wouldn't be able to participate. This is something that you should've been able to understand if that is what you were actually interested in doing.

No.

You are the one who is confused.

But as I said, you are conflating "ontology" and "authority", as you call them.

What you are actually saying here is that they have the same "ontology" but different "authority" you are conflating the categories as I have maintained all along.
I see nothing wrong with distinguishing ontology from authority. Such is the basis of 1 Cor 15, Jn 1:1 and Jesus being the son of God, and his deferring to the Father in all things.

You think you do.

They are all men. They have the same ontology.

I have actually been trying to understand how you are using the terms to see how you arrived at your conclusions. I think it is fairly clear to all except you that you are conflating the terms you are using.

I Tim. 2:14 does not say that women are more susceptible to being deceived, let alone that they are unequal to men. Maybe you could benefit from this, "But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. 5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.” 8 And they remembered his words, 9 and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. "Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles, 11 but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them. "
I defer to TRJM's reference to https://www.openbible.info/topics/women_inferior_to_man.

I agree however that the weakness of women was exposed by the fall; and God formally recognized this in Gen 3:16 (αὐτός σου κυριεύσει) "[Your husband] will have dominion over you."

Some people have hypothesized that women don't have the same souls as men, but I wouldn't go that far, although the sins of some women are very grievous.

I've defined the terms I am using in our discussion and have consistently used them in that manner in our exchanges. My acknowledgment of other possibilities with others doesn't change this fact.

What are you referring to here?
Sorry inadvertently missed the A off the opening word of the Trisagion (pasting error). I was trying to get over to you that the essence of God is monadism (indivisibility), although comprised of different qualities & attributes nonetheless. Thus to pretend that "theos" in the NT can be treated other than as a unique monadic identifer is just wrong. You need to grasp that the NT transcends paganism, as o θεός transcends Θεοί.

Because God and the way that we refer to God are not the same....

You can say whatever you want. I have told you what the truth is.
How can you tell me the truth if you don't know it yourself?

All right. I'll leave you to your ignorance, then.

You don't believe that Jesus is God so you can't help but understand him as separate from the Father.
I think Jesus said "[One] with God" and "from God" and "[Word and monogenes] of God" (Rev 19:13, Jn 1:14)

Since the bible so carefully distinguishes, and yet at the same times associates, the Word and God, it's just a pity that you with your bulldozer approach, can't see what the bible says. It seems everything you say is dominated by a motive to cast me as a heretic, which is perverse, as you only condemn yourself by doing so.

I didn't charge you with "heresy". Didn't you notice the quotation marks? I was responding to what you said about me. I said plainly what I meant which is that your conduct isn't Christ-like and your handling of scripture is poor.
You did, because you said "has no scriptural support for the overwhelming majority of his assertions."

That's not what Paul said.

Because there are other ways that it could be said. Just as I could refer to God as God, Elohim, the Almighty, I am, Lord, Yahweh, The Creator, etc.
Only a pagan would credit a human being as being "God."
I've not accused anyone of heresy. You don't know how to read.

None of this is relevant.

If you say so.
 
The Bible doesn't say this.
I think it does, because Jesus when resurrected, he was "glorified with thy own self." John 17:5. Also see Col 2:9. Unless these attributes of divinity are present, and they are only present in heaven, then deity cannot be conceived except in terms of sonship. Deity doesn't pertain to the flesh.

A man can only be filled with the Spirit, as Jesus was. The heavenly reality is somewhat different.

Where is your scripture for this?

Where is your scripture for this?
I feel that this conversation is going nowhere, and is a waste of time, because of your hostility, so I'm inclined to terminate it.

I've not taken a position. I've made that clear. I have suggested that some positions should be ruled out, though.

Why you insist on interpreting the passages of scripture that clearly talk about Jesus's nature and preexistence before his incarnation by the remarks he made as a man is beyond my comprehension.
Ridiculous. What is John 17:5 and 5:58 and about if not about his prior life with God?
I've not done this. You keep making false accusations.

I've not been hypocritical in this discussion. Your imagination has been running away with you.

Whatever you say, chief.

I've not said one bit about this.

Says the person who has been refuted by scripture and has no scriptural support for the overwhelming majority of his assertions.

I can't even pretend to take this seriously.
I can't take your allegations of hypocrisy seriously, because you've not substantiated them. As Jesus did, you have to give chapter and verse when bringing such allegations. Col 2:9 was the closest that Paul came to identifying Jesus as o θεός, but he never manages it, any more than John does. So obviously we will never agree, because your arguments are smoke and mirrors. They must fail in any court of law. Go learn what the term "monogenes son of God" means and get back to me on this.
 
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I see nothing wrong with distinguishing ontology from authority. Such is the basis of 1 Cor 15, Jn 1:1 and Jesus being the son of God, and his deferring to the Father in all things.
You say that, but in your examples you state that a difference in "authority" is evidence of different "ontology." You seem confused.
I defer to TRJM's reference to https://www.openbible.info/topics/women_inferior_to_man.

I agree however that the weakness of women was exposed by the fall; and God formally recognized this in Gen 3:16 (αὐτός σου κυριεύσει) "[Your husband] will have dominion over you."

Some people have hypothesized that women don't have the same souls as men, but I wouldn't go that far, although the sins of some women are very grievous.
None of this demonstrates that men and women have a different ontology (even if one accepts your completely inaccurate and misogynistic statements about women).
Sorry inadvertently missed the A off the opening word of the Trisagion (pasting error). I was trying to get over to you that the essence of God is monadism (indivisibility), although comprised of different qualities & attributes nonetheless. Thus to pretend that "theos" in the NT can be treated other than as a unique monadic identifer is just wrong. You need to grasp that the NT transcends paganism, as o θεός transcends Θεοί.
"You need to grasp" that "ὁ θεός" is just a common articular noun that can be used to refer to God or to other things regardless of the form of the word used. It is not a name.
How can you tell me the truth if you don't know it yourself?
Because the things that I am claiming are truth are clearly true: "ὁ θεός" isn't a name, women are not ontologically inferior to men, etc. These are things you shouldn't even be arguing about.
I think Jesus said "[One] with God" and "from God" and "[Word and monogenes] of God" (Rev 19:13, Jn 1:14)

Since the bible so carefully distinguishes, and yet at the same times associates, the Word and God, it's just a pity that you with your bulldozer approach, can't see what the bible says.
I can see that the text says that Jesus is God. You've seen it, too. The difference is that you lie and say it doesn't.
John 20:28 "ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου."
Titus 2:13 "προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,"
It seems everything you say is dominated by a motive to cast me as a heretic, which is perverse, as you only condemn yourself by doing so.
I've not cast you as a heretic. I've told you explicitly what I've said and what I've intended to convey.
You did, because you said "has no scriptural support for the overwhelming majority of his assertions."
That is called a fact, cjab. The fact that they have stung you suggests you know this already.
Only a pagan would credit a human being as being "God."
Or someone that takes Jesus at his word.
 
You say that, but in your examples you state that a difference in "authority" is evidence of different "ontology." You seem confused.
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. No fixed rules. Did not God say re Esau and Jacob "The older will serve the younger" Gen 25:23? Did not God say to Adam "rule over the animals etc"?

None of this demonstrates that men and women have a different ontology (even if one accepts your completely inaccurate and misogynistic statements about women).
They do, because the NT writers allude to the weakness of women, a "fact" that you can't accept for political reasons, as you are clearly a feminist.

"You need to grasp" that "ὁ θεός" is just a common articular noun that can be used to refer to God or to other things regardless of the form of the word used. It is not a name.
Only if you're an idolator could ὁ θεός be used to refer to "other things" in the NT.

Because the things that I am claiming are truth are clearly true: "ὁ θεός" isn't a name, women are not ontologically inferior to men, etc. These are things you shouldn't even be arguing about.
What idolators think is irrelevant.

I can see that the text says that Jesus is God. You've seen it, too. The difference is that you lie and say it doesn't.
John 20:28 "ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου."
Titus 2:13 "προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,"
Your delusion.

I've not cast you as a heretic. I've told you explicitly what I've said and what I've intended to convey.
In so many words and things, you have.

That is called a fact, cjab. The fact that they have stung you suggests you know this already.

Or someone that takes Jesus at his word.
Neither the words in Titus 2:13 nor John 20:28 were spoken by Jesus.
 
I think it does,
There's your problem.
Also see Col 2:9. Unless these attributes of divinity are present, and they are only present in heaven, then deity cannot be conceived except in terms of sonship. Deity doesn't pertain to the flesh.
It does when deity is in flesh.
I feel that this conversation is going nowhere, and is a waste of time, because of your hostility,
You have a warped understanding of the matter if you think that I am the one being hostile.
so I'm inclined to terminate it.
Any time you wish.
Ridiculous. What is John 17:5 and 5:58 and about if not about his prior life with God?
Once again, you've failed to comprehend what I've said. I've been patient with you, but it truly feels like I am talking to a preteen.
I can't take your allegations of hypocrisy seriously, because you've not substantiated them.
Have you even read what I've written? I've proven my claims repeatedly in this thread.
As Jesus did, you have to give chapter and verse when bringing such allegations.
I've done so even in this thread.
Col 2:9 was the closest that Paul came to identifying Jesus as o θεός, but he never manages it, any more than John does.
John explicitly calls Jesus God in John 1:1! You are hung up on an article because you are ignorant of Greek. There's no fix for your willful ignorance unless you choose to learn something.
So obviously we will never agree, because your arguments are smoke and mirrors.
Whatever you say, chief.
They must fail in any court of law.
LOL
Go learn what the term "monogenes son of God" means and get back to me on this.
That's even more laughable than your previous statement. How about you go learn Greek before you try to lecture me about it.
 
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. No fixed rules. Did not God say re Esau and Jacob "The older will serve the younger" Gen 25:23? Did not God say to Adam "rule over the animals etc"?
Jacob and Esau are ontologically the same. You are conflating "authority" with "ontology". Why do you not understand this? If some unfortunate soul is reading this, please tell cjab that he is confused.
They do, because the NT writers allude to the weakness of women, a "fact" that you can't accept for political reasons, as you are clearly a feminist.
They also refer to the weakness of men. That doesn't mean that they are unequal.
Only if you're an idolator could ὁ θεός be used to refer to "other things" in the NT.
It is clearly used that way. It's not open for debate. The word phrase isn't used exclusively for God the Father.
Neither the words in Titus 2:13 nor John 20:28 were spoken by Jesus.
Apparently, you don't know what an apostle is. Perhaps you should take a moment to read Galatians 1.
 
I can't take your allegations of hypocrisy seriously, because you've not substantiated them. As Jesus did, you have to give chapter and verse when bringing such allegations. Col 2:9 was the closest that Paul came to identifying Jesus as o θεός, but he never manages it, any more than John does. So obviously we will never agree, because your arguments are smoke and mirrors. They must fail in any court of law. Go learn what the term "monogenes son of God" means and get back to me on this.
μονογενής, ές (μόνος, γένος; Hes.; LXX; PsSol 18, 4; TestSol 20:2; TestBenj 9:2; ParJer 7:26; ApcEsdr 6:16; ApcSed 9:2; Joseph., Just.; loanw. in rabb.) acc. μονογενῆ (-ῆν J 3:16 v.l.; Hb 11:17 D; also ApcEsdr 6:16)


pert. to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship, one and only, only (so mostly, incl. Judg 11:34; Tob 3:15; 8:17) of children: of Isaac, Abraham’s only son (Jos., Ant. 1, 222) Hb 11:17. Of an only son (PsSol 18:4; TestSol 20:2; ParJer 7:26; Plut., Lycurgus 59 [31, 8]; Jos., Ant. 20, 20) Lk 7:12; 9:38. Of a daughter (Diod S 4, 73, 2) of Jairus 8:42. (On the motif of a child’s death before that of a parent s. EpigrAnat 13, ’89, 128f, no. 2; 18, ’91, 94 no. 4 [244/45 a.d.]; GVI nos. 1663–69.)


pert. to being the only one of its kind or class, unique (in kind) of someth. that is the only example of its category (Cornutus 27 p, 49, 13 εἷς κ. μονογενὴς ὁ κόσμος ἐστί. μονογενῆ κ. μόνα ἐστίν=‘unique and alone’; Pla., Timaeus 92c; Theosophien 181, §56, 27). Of a mysterious bird, the Phoenix 1 Cl 25:2.—In the Johannine lit. (s. also ApcEsdr and ApcSed: ὁ μονογενής υἱός; Hippol., Ref. 8, 10, 3; Did., Gen. 89, 18; ὑμνοῦμέν γε θεὸν καὶ τὸν μ. αὐτοῦ Orig., C. Cels. 8, 67, 14; cp. ἡ δύναμις ἐκείνη ἡ μ. Hippol., Ref. 10, 16, 6) μονογενὴς υἱός is used only of Jesus. The renderings only, unique may be quite adequate for all its occurrences here (so M-M., NRSV et al.; DMoody, JBL 72, ’53, 213–19; FGrant, ATR 36, ’54, 284–87; GPendrick, NTS 41, ’95, 587–600). τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μ. ἔδωκεν J 3:16 (Philo Bybl. [100 a.d.]: 790 Fgm. 2 ch. 10, 33 Jac. [in Eus., PE 1, 10, 33]: Cronus offers up his μονογενὴς υἱός). ὁ μ. υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ vs. 18; τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μ. ἀπέσταλκεν ὁ θεός 1J 4:9; cp. Dg 10:2. On the expr. δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός J 1:14 s. Hdb. ad loc. and PWinter, Zeitschrift für Rel. u. Geistesgeschichte 5, ’53, 335–65 (Engl.). See also Hdb. on vs. 18 where, beside the rdg. μονογενὴς θεός (considered by many the orig.) an only-begotten one, God (acc. to his real being; i.e. uniquely divine as God’s son and transcending all others alleged to be gods) or a uniquely begotten deity (for the perspective s. J 10:33–36), another rdg. ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός is found. MPol 20:2 in the doxology διὰ παιδὸς αὐτοῦ τοῦ μονογενοῦς Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. Some (e.g. WBauer, Hdb.; JBulman, Calvin Theological Journal 16, ’81, 56–79; JDahms, NTS 29, ’83, 222–32) prefer to regard μ. as somewhat heightened in mng. in J and 1J to only-begotten or begotten of the Only One, in view of the emphasis on γεννᾶσθαι ἐκ θεοῦ (J 1:13 al.); in this case it would be analogous to πρωτότοκος (Ro 8:29; Col 1:15 al.).—On the mng. of μονογενής in history of religion s. the material in Hdb.3 25f on J 1:14 (also Plut., Mor. 423a Πλάτων … αὐτῷ δή φησι δοκεῖν ἕνα τοῦτον [sc. τὸν κόσμον] εἶναι μονογενῆ τῷ θεῷ καὶ ἀγαπητόν; Wsd 7:22 of σοφία: ἔστι ἐν αὐτῇ πνεῦμα νοερὸν ἅγιον μονογενές.—Vett. Val. 11, 32) as well as the lit. given there, also HLeisegang, Der Bruder des Erlösers: Αγγελος I 1925, 24–33; RBultmann J (comm., KEK) ’50, 47 n. 2; 55f.—DELG s.v. μένω. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 658). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

And the older article from M&M:


μονογενής 3439


is literally “one of a kind,” “only,” “unique” (unicus), not “only-begotten,” which would be μονογέννητος (unigenitus), and is common in the LXX in this sense (e.g. Judg 11:34; Ps 21 (22):21; 24 (25):16; Tob 3:15). It is similarly used in the NT of “only” sons and daughters (Lk 7:12; 8:42; 9:38), and is so applied in a special sense to Christ in Jn 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn 4:9, where the emphasis is on the thought that, as the “only” Son of God, He has no equal and is able fully to reveal the Father. We cannot enter here into the doctrinal aspects of the word, or into a discussion on the sources, Orphic or Gnostic, from which John is sometimes supposed to have drawn his use of it, but reference may be made to the art. by Kattenbusch “Only Begotten” in Hastings’ DCG ii. p. 281f. where the relative literature is given. A few exx. of the title from non-Biblical sources will, however, be of interest. In an imprecatory tablet from Carthage of iii/a.d., Wünsch AF p. 1837, we find—ὁρκίζω σε τὸν θεὸν … τὸν μονογενῆ τὸν ἐξ αὑτοῦ ἀναφανέντα, where the editor cites the great magical Paris papyrus, 1585 εἰσάκουσόν μου ὁ εἷς μονογενής. With this may be compared P Leid Vv. 34 (iii/iv a.d.) (= II. p. 21) εὐχαριστῶ σοι κύριε ὅ[τι] μοι [ἔλυσεν] τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα, τὸ μονογενές, τὸ ζωόν. See also Vett. Val. p. 1132. An inscr. in memory of a certain Plutarchus, Kaibel 1464 (iii/iv a.d.) describes him as μουνογενής περ ἐὼν καὶ πατέρεσσι φίλος. And the word is apparently used as a proper name in C. and B. i. p. 115, No. 17 (Hierapolis) Φλαβιανὸς ὁ καὶ Μονογονις εὐχαριστῶ τῇ θεῷ, where Ramsay thinks that we should probably read Μονογένης or Μηνογένης. For the true reading in Jn 1:18 it is hardly necessary to refer to Hort’s classical discussion in Two Dissertations, p. 1ff.

Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (pp. 416–417). London: Hodder and Stoughton.
 
I think the honest answer would have been “No, actually.”
Why? What evidence do you have that I don't know it? That I disagree with your theology and interpretations of various passages? Three years of formal study plus a year of Aramaic for flavoring adds up to a good working knowledge of the language. I don't spend nearly as much time in it as in ancient Greek (and Latin), but sufficient to keep up.
 
Why? What evidence do you have that I don't know it? That I disagree with your theology and interpretations of various passages? Three years of formal study plus a year of Aramaic for flavoring adds up to a good working knowledge of the language. I don't spend nearly as much time in it as in ancient Greek (and Latin), but sufficient to keep up.
Unfortunately, I think his job is to discredit you and JM anytime he gets a chance.
 
Why? What evidence do you have that I don't know it? That I disagree with your theology and interpretations of various passages? Three years of formal study plus a year of Aramaic for flavoring adds up to a good working knowledge of the language. I don't spend nearly as much time in it as in ancient Greek (and Latin), but sufficient to keep up.
Can you speak the following simple words in Biblical Hebrew? “ My name is Gryllus. I actually know Hebrew. Don’t believe anyone who tells you otherwise .”.. Without consulting lexicons or any kinds of helps.

If not , then you do NOT actually know Hebrew. You don’t fool me.
 
One of “my jobs” here is to expose charlatans, ….so that more people like you don’t exist, that is, those who have been fooled .
They are not intentionally and maliciously misleading people so they cannot be charlatans. Nor are they worshipping a pagan God. They are giving their honest opinions. You judge too harshly, imo.
 
They are not intentionally and maliciously misleading people so they cannot be charlatans. Nor are they worshipping a pagan God. They are giving their honest opinions. You judge too harshly, imo.
Perhaps you judge too quickly. “The gods have come down to us in human form!” (Acts 14:11) was the utterance of pagans, not Christians.
 
For the true reading in Jn 1:18 it is hardly necessary to refer to Hort’s classical discussion in Two Dissertations, p. 1ff.

Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (pp. 416–417). London: Hodder and Stoughton.
Re The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (“the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός ( “the only son”)

"It seems to have arisen from a confusion of the contracted forms of writing, Υ and ΘC. The question, which reading to adopt, is one which, in the balance of authorities, must be provisionally decided by the consideration that as far as we can see, we should be introducing great harshness into the sentence, and a new and strange term into Scripture, by adopting θεός: a consequence which ought to have no weight whatever where authority is overpowering, but may fairly be weighed where this is not so. The “præstat procliviori ardua” finds in this case a legitimate limit." (Alford).

Scholars who opt for υἱός consistently point out the apparent isolation of θεός in the Alexandrian form of text. In fact, Ehrman argues that because “virtually every other representative of every other textual grouping—Western, Caesarean, Byzantine—attests to υἱός,” θεός does not “fare well at all." (Wallace)

In any event those who opt for μονογενὴς θεός (without the article) - these being the Trinitarian hardliners who credit "God the Word, God the Son etc" (and who first arose in some of the successors to the apostles) - are put into the position of having to disapply Sharp's rule to θεός, as they must accept their own biblical intepretation that θεός is μονογενὴς. Or is it that they are greedy and want to have their cake and eat it?
 
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Re The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (“the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός ( “the only son”)

"It seems to have arisen from a confusion of the contracted forms of writing, Υ and ΘC. The question, which reading to adopt, is one which, in the balance of authorities, must be provisionally decided by the consideration that as far as we can see, we should be introducing great harshness into the sentence, and a new and strange term into Scripture, by adopting θεός: a consequence which ought to have no weight whatever where authority is overpowering, but may fairly be weighed where this is not so. The “præstat procliviori ardua” finds in this case a legitimate limit." (Alford).

Scholars who opt for υἱός consistently point out the apparent isolation of θεός in the Alexandrian form of text. In fact, Ehrman argues that because “virtually every other representative of every other textual grouping—Western, Caesarean, Byzantine—attests to υἱός,” θεός does not “fare well at all." (Wallace)

In any event those who opt for μονογενὴς θεός (without the article) - these being the Trinitarian hardliners who credit "God the Word, God the Son etc" (and who first arose in some of the successors to the apostles) - are put into the position of having to disapply Sharp's rule to θεός, as they must accept their own biblical intepretation that θεός is μονογενὴς. Or is it that they are greedy and want to have their cake and eat it?
It's odd that the Net Bible, in which Wallace had a large part in developing, went with - 18 Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. 18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
 
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