If determinism is true

TomFL

Well-known member
1. How is man really guilty of his sins, if God decreed beforehand all his sins and made
them happen. By this understanding, God made all these sins happen, and there was
no way any of them could have been avoided? How can man be guilty for things he
could not have prevented?

2. How does God Himself escape culpability for all the evil which He ordained?
 

ReverendRV

Active member
1. How is man really guilty of his sins, if God decreed beforehand all his sins and made
them happen. By this understanding, God made all these sins happen, and there was
no way any of them could have been avoided? How can man be guilty for things he
could not have prevented?

2. How does God Himself escape culpability for all the evil which He ordained?
Man is 'Guilty' of his sin because he means it for Evil, but God is 'Not Guilty' for Man's Sin because God means it for Good, The 'Meaning' of the two parties involved leaves one Participant Culpable but the other participant not Culpable...
 
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PeanutGallery

Active member
Man is 'Guilty' of his sin because he means it for Evil, but God is 'Not Guilty' for Man's Sin because God means it for Good, The 'Meaning' of the two parties involved leaves one Participant Culpable but the other participant not Culpable...
You mean man, who is meticulously decreed by God, is culpable for sin designed for good? Where is that in scripture?
 

ReverendRV

Active member
You mean man, who is meticulously decreed by God, is culpable for sin designed for good? Where is that in scripture?
Genesis 50:20 ESV; As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
The other day, I was listening to a Tony Evans sermon. He was preaching on Genesis 50:20, and he was getting wound up; and if you're familiar with him, you can imagine it. When speaking of God's involvement, Dr Evans said, "He meant it! HE meant it!! He MEANT IT!!!". God meant for Joseph's brothers to sell him out; and God meant it for Good. ~ The Sanctuary usually gets as loud as the Dr Evans does, but on this occasion they were agreeing but they weren't as vocal as usual, Lol. God's Decree and his Providence are at first Sweet, but then bitter to the stomache...
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
1. How is man really guilty of his sins, if God decreed beforehand all his sins and made
them happen. By this understanding, God made all these sins happen, and there was
no way any of them could have been avoided? How can man be guilty for things he
could not have prevented?

2. How does God Himself escape culpability for all the evil which He ordained?

Man still commits his sins, and God isn't to "blame" for them, for God has a good and godly purpose for them.

Gen. 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me,
but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today.

Isa. 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
6 Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few;

Acts 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
1. How is man really guilty of his sins, if God decreed beforehand all his sins and made
them happen. By this understanding, God made all these sins happen, and there was
no way any of them could have been avoided? How can man be guilty for things he
could not have prevented?

2. How does God Himself escape culpability for all the evil which He ordained?
Lol sounds like the reasoning of the person Paul rebuked in Rom 9, check it out Rom 9

For the scripture said to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

You will say then to me, Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?

No but, O man, who are you that reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?

Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor?

What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
 

ReverendRV

Active member
That does not answer the question:
You mean man, who is meticulously decreed by God, is culpable for sin designed for good? Where is that in scripture?
Thankyou for your time, hopefully I'll have a better discussion with the OP. He wants to talk about it...
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
The death of Christ is an example !
Christ's death was determined:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Where's the verse:
You mean man, who is meticulously decreed by God, is culpable for sin designed for good?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Lol sounds like the reasoning of the person Paul rebuked in Rom 9, check it out Rom 9

For the scripture said to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

You will say then to me, Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?

No but, O man, who are you that reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?

Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor?

What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Your problem Paul's interlocutor is a hardened Jew who God used for the purpose of Crucifying Christ. Not someome protesting against meticulous divine determination

Try again
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Man still commits his sins, and God isn't to "blame" for them, for God has a good and godly purpose for them.

Gen. 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me,
but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today.

Isa. 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
6 Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few;

Acts 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
Not if God determined such sin by an unconditional decree without regard to anything man might do and that before the foundation of the world
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Man is 'Guilty' of his sin because he means it for Evil, but God is 'Not Guilty' for Man's Sin because God means it for Good, The 'Meaning' of the two parties involved leaves one Participant Culpable but the other participant not Culpable...

Hello Reverend

Not if God determined such sin before the foundation of the world without any regard to what man might do as a number of Calvinists creeds affirm
 

ReverendRV

Active member
Hello Reverend

Not if God determined such sin before the foundation of the world without any regard to what man might do as a number of Calvinists creeds affirm
According to the Bible, it does mean that TomL. We see in the person of Jesus Christ, that the Will of God and the Will of Man are a Hypostasis. The reason for this in Christ's case is the Hypostatic Union, but God's Decree and Man's decree flow Concurrently, inseparably but without mixing too...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
According to the Bible, it does mean that TomL. We see in the person of Jesus Christ, that the Will of God and the Will of Man are a Hypostasis. The reason for this in Christ's case is the Hypostatic Union, but God's Decree and Man's decree flow Concurrently, inseparably but without mixing too...

Reverend

I am not sure I am understanding your reasoning here

But the bible is clear

God is not the cause of man's sin

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and ysin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
James 1:16 ¶ Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from athe Father of lights, bwith whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.4

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and xhe will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Job 34:10 ¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding:
far be it from God that he should do wickedness,
and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
Job 34:11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him,
and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Job 34:12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly,
and the Almighty will not pervert justice.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Christ's death was determined:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Where's the verse:
You mean man, who is meticulously decreed by God, is culpable for sin designed for good?
I already stated that it is in Acts . You have been shown the verses before. I decline to show you verses.
 

ReverendRV

Active member
Reverend

I am not sure I am understanding your reasoning here

But the bible is clear

God is not the cause of man's sin

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and ysin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
James 1:16 ¶ Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from athe Father of lights, bwith whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.4

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and xhe will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Job 34:10 ¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding:
far be it from God that he should do wickedness,
and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
Job 34:11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him,
and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Job 34:12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly,
and the Almighty will not pervert justice.
Amen to all that!
 
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