If God wanted people to become X, why not write the bible properly?

(I wrote X to keep the title shorter. X=Jewish/Christian)

Christians do a lot of leg work, trying to convince people that the Bible is true, but so many things work against them. Maybe it's not God's intention for people to be convinced by it. During a lot of tedious arguments, atheists may remember Christians retreating to "god won't show us proof, because that would take away our free will". This undermines the Bible, since they claim the Bible is proof.

Famous examples of how the Bible makes it hard to believe.

1. Sun created on 4th day. Surely it would have been better to have it created on the first day. Augustine didn't believe it, and neither did anyone prior. Genesis 2:4 is another attempt to do it right, but makes it worse. If this is the front of the Bible, then surely you want to make a good impression.
- humans created in God's image (really?)
- magic tree put in the wrong place
- deliberately-installed talking serpent, that tells the truth
- serpent somehow becomes Satan later, with no explanation
- Elohim and Yahwey seem to disagree on things
- God can't exterminate humans without asking a man to gather millions of species and put them in a boat, but has no trouble during passover
- God forgets to put plant species on the boat.
- Babel tower intimidates God, so he curses them with something they already had.

2. Hell. Create a disgusting idea to cudgel people into believing your religion, but don't explain anywhere, where it came from, or why. Make it look like it came from Greeks, rather than the Hebrew religion.. Avoid mentioning it in the whole Torah and Genesis. Put a really vague mention of hell on the end of Daniel, a book of prophecy which is supposedly locked up until the end of time. Put a load of prophecies in Daniel that don't happen, to make people think it's a fake, anyway. Put details of hell in the book of Enoch, but have Christians and Jews throw it out. Then make two versions of it, and leave it with Ethiopians.

3. Jesus.
- Insist that he died for our sins, but is still alive.
- In the main book of the NT, Matthew (last verse) - just say he resurrected for no particular reason, other than to show us he had power.
- Don't use the word "grace" in the entire gospel, esp. in Matthew don't even hint at how grace could save you.
- Let someone who murdered Christians and maybe never met any, dispense his words of contradictory wisdom
- Tell us to follow all Jewish law in Matthew, and all of Jesus' laws, and then say you don't have to.
- Don't let him write anything
- Don't put any authorship or dates on the books

4. Satan.
- create a nemesis to wreck it all up, but don't explain how God could possibly be almost losing, or give any sense of what Satan is.
- have a prophecy that only virgin men go to heaven
-

As you know, the list kind of goes on. My intent is not to have Christians defend any of these problems, but to simply ask: Do you think you've been given a hard book to work with, and if so, why? If not, then does that go against the empirical evidence?
 

AV1611VET

Well-known member
Do you think you've been given a hard book to work with, and if so, why? If not, then does that go against the empirical evidence?
Yes and no.

The Bible is so simple, even a child can get saved; yet It is so technical, even the most scientific minds can't parse It correctly.

If you want me to address all those points you made in your OP, which you said you didn't intend to have us them, then please see my thread here:

Q & A: Creationism
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
The Bible is so simple, even a child can get saved;
Unless they are taught the wrong interpretations.
yet It is so technical, even the most scientific minds can't parse It correctly.
Coming to a different conclusion doesn't mean you didn't understand it.

If the Bible had said "humans can breathe molten bronze" and science had replied "nah, bro", that's not scientists "parsing the Bible incorrectly".
 

CrowCross

Super Member
(I wrote X to keep the title shorter. X=Jewish/Christian)

Christians do a lot of leg work, trying to convince people that the Bible is true, but so many things work against them. Maybe it's not God's intention for people to be convinced by it. During a lot of tedious arguments, atheists may remember Christians retreating to "god won't show us proof, because that would take away our free will". This undermines the Bible, since they claim the Bible is proof.

Famous examples of how the Bible makes it hard to believe.

1. Sun created on 4th day. Surely it would have been better to have it created on the first day. Augustine didn't believe it, and neither did anyone prior. Genesis 2:4 is another attempt to do it right, but makes it worse. If this is the front of the Bible, then surely you want to make a good impression.

Why would it have been better to create it on the first day?
- humans created in God's image (really?)

What is the image of God?
- magic tree put in the wrong place

How is the middle of the garden the wrong place?
- deliberately-installed talking serpent, that tells the truth

1/2 thuths.
- serpent somehow becomes Satan later, with no explanation

Revelation sheds light on who the serpent is.
- Elohim and Yahwey seem to disagree on things
Such as????
- God can't exterminate humans without asking a man to gather millions of species and put them in a boat, but has no trouble during passover

God gathered the animals....what is the problem with the passover?
- God forgets to put plant species on the boat.
Why would that be a problem?
- Babel tower intimidates God, so he curses them with something they already had.

What did they already have?
2. Hell. Create a disgusting idea to cudgel people into believing your religion, but don't explain anywhere, where it came from, or why. Make it look like it came from Greeks, rather than the Hebrew religion.. Avoid mentioning it in the whole Torah and Genesis. Put a really vague mention of hell on the end of Daniel, a book of prophecy which is supposedly locked up until the end of time. Put a load of prophecies in Daniel that don't happen, to make people think it's a fake, anyway. Put details of hell in the book of Enoch, but have Christians and Jews throw it out. Then make two versions of it, and leave it with Ethiopians.

That's a lot of nothing.
3. Jesus.
- Insist that he died for our sins, but is still alive.

It's called the resurrection
- In the main book of the NT, Matthew (last verse) - just say he resurrected for no particular reason, other than to show us he had power.
What about the other accounts?
- Don't use the word "grace" in the entire gospel, esp. in Matthew don't even hint at how grace could save you.

I can show you 25 verses that mention grace.
- Let someone who murdered Christians and maybe never met any, dispense his words of contradictory wisdom
Such as????
- Tell us to follow all Jewish law in Matthew, and all of Jesus' laws, and then say you don't have to.

Where?
- Don't let him write anything

?????
- Don't put any authorship or dates on the books

Many have the author mentioned in the books.
4. Satan.
- create a nemesis to wreck it all up, but don't explain how God could possibly be almost losing, or give any sense of what Satan is.

The bible explains satan
- have a prophecy that only virgin men go to heaven

Such as?
-

As you know, the list kind of goes on. My intent is not to have Christians defend any of these problems, but to simply ask: Do you think you've been given a hard book to work with, and if so, why? If not, then does that go against the empirical evidence?
All you have presented is a say-so post. Nothing but unsupported claims.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
(I wrote X to keep the title shorter. X=Jewish/Christian)

Christians do a lot of leg work, trying to convince people that the Bible is true, but so many things work against them. Maybe it's not God's intention for people to be convinced by it. During a lot of tedious arguments, atheists may remember Christians retreating to "god won't show us proof, because that would take away our free will". This undermines the Bible, since they claim the Bible is proof.

Famous examples of how the Bible makes it hard to believe.

1. Sun created on 4th day. Surely it would have been better to have it created on the first day. Augustine didn't believe it, and neither did anyone prior. Genesis 2:4 is another attempt to do it right, but makes it worse. If this is the front of the Bible, then surely you want to make a good impression.
- humans created in God's image (really?)
- magic tree put in the wrong place
- deliberately-installed talking serpent, that tells the truth
- serpent somehow becomes Satan later, with no explanation
- Elohim and Yahwey seem to disagree on things
- God can't exterminate humans without asking a man to gather millions of species and put them in a boat, but has no trouble during passover
- God forgets to put plant species on the boat.
- Babel tower intimidates God, so he curses them with something they already had.

2. Hell. Create a disgusting idea to cudgel people into believing your religion, but don't explain anywhere, where it came from, or why. Make it look like it came from Greeks, rather than the Hebrew religion.. Avoid mentioning it in the whole Torah and Genesis. Put a really vague mention of hell on the end of Daniel, a book of prophecy which is supposedly locked up until the end of time. Put a load of prophecies in Daniel that don't happen, to make people think it's a fake, anyway. Put details of hell in the book of Enoch, but have Christians and Jews throw it out. Then make two versions of it, and leave it with Ethiopians.

3. Jesus.
- Insist that he died for our sins, but is still alive.
- In the main book of the NT, Matthew (last verse) - just say he resurrected for no particular reason, other than to show us he had power.
- Don't use the word "grace" in the entire gospel, esp. in Matthew don't even hint at how grace could save you.
- Let someone who murdered Christians and maybe never met any, dispense his words of contradictory wisdom
- Tell us to follow all Jewish law in Matthew, and all of Jesus' laws, and then say you don't have to.
- Don't let him write anything
- Don't put any authorship or dates on the books

4. Satan.
- create a nemesis to wreck it all up, but don't explain how God could possibly be almost losing, or give any sense of what Satan is.
- have a prophecy that only virgin men go to heaven
-

As you know, the list kind of goes on. My intent is not to have Christians defend any of these problems, but to simply ask: Do you think you've been given a hard book to work with, and if so, why? If not, then does that go against the empirical evidence?
Write it properly....

Curious concept.

Who is the committee that decides what properly is, and consists of?

Perhaps, since it's YHVH's Word, he decided that the way it's written is the proper and most effective way to write it?

Or, are you saying that YHVH doesn't actually know what he's doing and needs to take a clue from the more erudite among humans?
 
Write it properly....

Curious concept.

Who is the committee that decides what properly is, and consists of?

Us, really. The Bible is supposed to convince us of stuff. If it gets everything wrong (in our eyes) then it's not going to be accepted.
This is what I read in Genesis 1:2-8. God parted the waters and made blue sky from water, with an ethereal "good" backlight. This ethereal backlight then got divided into two hemispheres or something, and rotated around the earth for the first 3 days. The writer apparently did not understand atmospheric scattering of blue light.This confused everyone.
 
All you have presented is a say-so post. Nothing but unsupported claims.

That was a tragic reply, and missed the point that you were not supposed to defend the confusion in the Bible. only answer whether people were being confused by it, and whether you would prefer a book that was written not to confuse people. The points I made were well known items of confusion, or just plain wrong.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Maybe it's not God's intention for people to be convinced by it
It is God's intention that everyone turn to His Son. I mean, He tells us straight up.

And as well, God knows who are His, who is not, and who is a pretenda.

Nothing has changed since God had it penned.

The rich still find it difficult, those trying to hide their sin still hide, and those who are downtrodden in life or spirit recognize His voice and are saved.

No surprises for God here.

Regarding writing the bible properly, you should consider He wrote it exactly as He wanted. Why did He speak in parables? He tells us why.

So not only do the rich and the strong willed hear it with their ears, their condition is prohibitive to following it.
 

Yakuda

Well-known member
(I wrote X to keep the title shorter. X=Jewish/Christian)

Christians do a lot of leg work, trying to convince people that the Bible is true, but so many things work against them. Maybe it's not God's intention for people to be convinced by it. During a lot of tedious arguments, atheists may remember Christians retreating to "god won't show us proof, because that would take away our free will". This undermines the Bible, since they claim the Bible is proof.

Famous examples of how the Bible makes it hard to believe.

1. Sun created on 4th day. Surely it would have been better to have it created on the first day. Augustine didn't believe it, and neither did anyone prior. Genesis 2:4 is another attempt to do it right, but makes it worse. If this is the front of the Bible, then surely you want to make a good impression.
- humans created in God's image (really?)
- magic tree put in the wrong place
- deliberately-installed talking serpent, that tells the truth
- serpent somehow becomes Satan later, with no explanation
- Elohim and Yahwey seem to disagree on things
- God can't exterminate humans without asking a man to gather millions of species and put them in a boat, but has no trouble during passover
- God forgets to put plant species on the boat.
- Babel tower intimidates God, so he curses them with something they already had.

2. Hell. Create a disgusting idea to cudgel people into believing your religion, but don't explain anywhere, where it came from, or why. Make it look like it came from Greeks, rather than the Hebrew religion.. Avoid mentioning it in the whole Torah and Genesis. Put a really vague mention of hell on the end of Daniel, a book of prophecy which is supposedly locked up until the end of time. Put a load of prophecies in Daniel that don't happen, to make people think it's a fake, anyway. Put details of hell in the book of Enoch, but have Christians and Jews throw it out. Then make two versions of it, and leave it with Ethiopians.

3. Jesus.
- Insist that he died for our sins, but is still alive.
- In the main book of the NT, Matthew (last verse) - just say he resurrected for no particular reason, other than to show us he had power.
- Don't use the word "grace" in the entire gospel, esp. in Matthew don't even hint at how grace could save you.
- Let someone who murdered Christians and maybe never met any, dispense his words of contradictory wisdom
- Tell us to follow all Jewish law in Matthew, and all of Jesus' laws, and then say you don't have to.
- Don't let him write anything
- Don't put any authorship or dates on the books

4. Satan.
- create a nemesis to wreck it all up, but don't explain how God could possibly be almost losing, or give any sense of what Satan is.
- have a prophecy that only virgin men go to heaven
-

As you know, the list kind of goes on. My intent is not to have Christians defend any of these problems, but to simply ask: Do you think you've been given a hard book to work with, and if so, why? If not, then does that go against the empirical evidence?
God doesn't care if you're a "Jew/Christian". Do you think it matters to Him? And you're assuming the bible wasnt written "properly" because you have found things in it that seem contradictory?
 

5wize

Well-known member
It is God's intention that everyone turn to His Son. I mean, He tells us straight up.

And as well, God knows who are His, who is not, and who is a pretenda.

Nothing has changed since God had it penned.

The rich still find it difficult, those trying to hide their sin still hide, and those who are downtrodden in life or spirit recognize His voice and are saved.

No surprises for God here.

Regarding writing the bible properly, you should consider He wrote it exactly as He wanted. Why did He speak in parables? He tells us why.

So not only do the rich and the strong willed hear it with their ears, their condition is prohibitive to following it.
Reformed theology is well represented by both the rich and the strong willed.
 

JosephLeo

New Member
1. Sun created on 4th day. Surely it would have been better to have it created on the first day. Augustine didn't believe it, and neither did anyone prior. Genesis 2:4 is another attempt to do it right, but makes it worse. If this is the front of the Bible, then surely you want to make a good impression.

Why would the Sun be created on the 1st day? There was a big bang on the first day -- let there be light. We don't really need the Sun to give light, right? Light is still light regardless of where it came from, be it from an explosion, collision, friction, heat, etc. It can also come from someone punching your face and you see bright stars.

- humans created in God's image (really?)

Don't you ever wonder why humans are the only animals on Earth capable of creating, inventing, and building stuff? Can a pig or a cat think of something like E=mc2 or F=ma? How about create music like Mozart? How about create a beautiful painting? It's obvious that there is a huge division between man and animal. Why are we so advanced rather than them? So advanced that we managed to put a man on the moon. Can a cockroach do that? Do you see a horse use a fork and a knife to eat a baked human? Can they cook and create different recipes?

God is a creator. We were created after his image and likeness. So, that's where we got our creative skills.

- magic tree put in the wrong place
- deliberately-installed talking serpent, that tells the truth
- serpent somehow becomes Satan later, with no explanation

- The tree is merely symbolic to represent life which is God and death which is the devil. It's like it's raining cats and dogs. God told Adam and Eve to avoid the devil and not to eat of it's fruit.

- What makes you think it's a snake? It's merely to describe some intelligent "being" as being cunning and crafty. This "serpent" was later cursed to crawl on its belly. If this was really a snake, then why the need to curse it, if it's already crawling on it's belly? This is like cursing a person to walk when he can already walk.

- God can't exterminate humans without asking a man to gather millions of species and put them in a boat, but has no trouble during passover

What makes you think that it's only one ark? Noah was given more than 100 years, right? I don't know of any boat maker that would take him 100 years to build a boat made of wood that size. And I don't know of any boat maker who would think that he could fit so many millions of species of animals in such a small space.

The truth is, Noah built more that one ark in that span of 100 years. One ark for predators, one ark for birds, one ark for farm animals, and etc. If you have the skills and knowledge to build a huge boat like Noah, just like a carpenter, he could already analyze how many animals can fit in the ark with those dimensions. God gave Noah the blueprint and it's up to Noah how many arks he would build.

100 years for 1 boat? Are you kidding? God told Noah to build an ark. He did not say Noah can build only one and fit all those animals like sardines in a can.

With regards to extermination, are you sure you really know what death is? Is it really a cessation of your existence? If yes, then, how did the rich man from hell communicate with Lazarus?

- God forgets to put plant species on the boat.

If that was the case, then what would cows eat?

- Babel tower intimidates God, so he curses them with something they already had.

People were gathered on only one area on Earth. God told them to spread out, but they didn't listen. So, they continued doing about their business for all they care. With regards to language, only 8 in the ark were saved -- all Noah's family. It would be strange and impractical if they spoke more than one language at home, right? This is like speaking French on Monday, then Russian on Wednesday, then Japanese on Wednesday, and etc. It's obvious they spoke only one language. So, Noah's family multiplied and multiplied to the size of a small country and spoke only the original language of Noah.

So, the generations of Noah, being hardheaded and worshiping dumb wooden gods, and building a tower that reached the sky, God decided to give them multiple languages to force them to scatter throughout the Earth. People with the same languages began to group with another and people began to spread out.

The Earth would be a waste of space and resources if people did not spread out right? Who would mine the gold? Discover oil? The diamonds? Do you think we would reach this modern age and technological wonder if we did not spread out? Some rare earth metals which are needed for circuit boards can only be found in some parts of the world like China. And Earth would be a boring place if all spoke only English with one accent.


2. Hell. Create a disgusting idea to cudgel people into believing your religion, but don't explain anywhere, where it came from, or why. Make it

Hell is just an incinerator for waste products. Where are you going to put Hitler and Saddam Hussein? God will not force anyone to believe him. It's the other way around dude. Instead he selects people to enable them to believe him so they can be saved because people are a hopeless case, that's why it has to be done that way. It's an exclusive club for members only. Maybe, you should stop listening to cults. They are the ones scaring people about hell so they can join their cult group in order to buy their pastor a private jet and mansions. And please stop opening your door to strangers sharing their faith with you.

As you know, the list kind of goes on. My intent is not to have Christians defend any of these problems, but to simply ask: Do you think you've been given a hard book to work with, and if so, why? If not, then does that go against the empirical evidence?

If you hate problem solving, the bible will be difficult to understand. You'll begin to hallucinate and see talking snakes and magic trees and unicorns.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Write it properly....

Curious concept.

Who is the committee that decides what properly is, and consists of?

Perhaps, since it's YHVH's Word, he decided that the way it's written is the proper and most effective way to write it?

Or, are you saying that YHVH doesn't actually know what he's doing and needs to take a clue from the more erudite among humans?
The canon was chosen by men in the 2nd - 5th centuries. This is long after the era of plenary inspiration and during a time when superstitions competing religious/mythical dogmas were fighting for the weak minds of the populace. The people that chose what stays and what does not were not under God's inspiration as the writers were claimed to be. But hey, they weren't fools of their day, the Apocrypha was left out - but they are fools of the standards of this day.

That makes you a fool.
 

AV1611VET

Well-known member
The canon was chosen by men in the 2nd - 5th centuries. This is long after the era of plenary inspiration and during a time when superstitions competing religious/mythical dogmas were fighting for the weak minds of the populace. The people that chose what stays and what does not were not under God's inspiration as the writers were claimed to be. But hey, they weren't fools of their day, the Apocrypha was left out - but they are fools of the standards of this day.

That makes you a fool.
If you were placed in a room with the following:
  1. pile of one dollar bills
  2. pile of two dollar bills
  3. pile of three dollar bills
  4. pile of four dollar bills
  5. pile of five dollar bills
  6. pile of six dollar bills
  7. pile of seven dollar bills
  8. pile of eight dollar bills
  9. pile of nine dollar bills
  10. pile of ten dollar bills
And you were told to separate all the bills into two piles:
  1. legal tender
  2. non-legal tender
Could you do it?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
That was a tragic reply, and missed the point that you were not supposed to defend the confusion in the Bible. only answer whether people were being confused by it, and whether you would prefer a book that was written not to confuse people. The points I made were well known items of confusion, or just plain wrong.

2nd Peter 3:16 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

The perspicuity of the salvation message is presented in the Gospel as well as other books of the bible.

But you call the bible confusing...Often your sect will quote the following:

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

In doing so you being gnorant and unstable twist the above scripture...and it will result in your own destruction.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Why would the Sun be created on the 1st day? There was a big bang on the first day -- let there be light. We don't really need the Sun to give light, right? Light is still light regardless of where it came from, be it from an explosion, collision, friction, heat, etc. It can also come from someone punching your face and you see bright stars.
Not good enough as the scripture says day was separated by night as well on the first day.
Don't you ever wonder why humans are the only animals on Earth capable of creating, inventing, and building stuff? Can a pig or a cat think of something like E=mc2 or F=ma? How about create music like Mozart? How about create a beautiful painting? It's obvious that there is a huge division between man and animal. Why are we so advanced rather than them? So advanced that we managed to put a man on the moon. Can a cockroach do that? Do you see a horse use a fork and a knife to eat a baked human? Can they cook and create different recipes?

God is a creator. We were created after his image and likeness. So, that's where we got our creative skills.
Humans are not the only creators. Tool building is found throughout the animal kingdom. We know the difference between that which is generated within nature and that which is created by will. We see no will in that which is generated by nature.
- The tree is merely symbolic to represent life which is God and death which is the devil. It's like it's raining cats and dogs. God told Adam and Eve to avoid the devil and not to eat of it's fruit.
You have no authority to pick and choose what is literal in Genesis and what is not. You are not working under plenary inspiration as the authors supposedly were. You are doing what your dogma tells you not to do and that is lean on your own reason. You cannot pick and choose what to believe and how because your apologetic is difficult to defend.
- What makes you think it's a snake? It's merely to describe some intelligent "being" as being cunning and crafty. This "serpent" was later cursed to crawl on its belly. If this was really a snake, then why the need to curse it, if it's already crawling on it's belly? This is like cursing a person to walk when he can already walk.
Whatever, animals don't talk. What happened to relying on rationality for this as you did above. See, you are picking and choosing when the defense is difficult.
What makes you think that it's only one ark? Noah was given more than 100 years, right? I don't know of any boat maker that would take him 100 years to build a boat made of wood that size. And I don't know of any boat maker who would think that he could fit so many millions of species of animals in such a small space. The truth is, Noah built more that one ark in that span of 100 years. One ark for predators, one ark for birds, one ark for farm animals, and etc. If you have the skills and knowledge to build a huge boat like Noah, just like a carpenter, he could already analyze how many animals can fit in the ark with those dimensions. God gave Noah the blueprint and it's up to Noah how many arks he would build.
100 years for 1 boat? Are you kidding? God told Noah to build an ark. He did not say Noah can build only one and fit all those animals like sardines in a can.
Here you go again.... Are you writing your own Bible? This is why we have no reason to believe any of this. You must invent further myth on top of myth to save a bad story..... oh, what a tangled web we weave. I guess that's why they call it an apologetic. It must be apologized for with these further convolutions that you have no warrant to believe.
With regards to extermination, are you sure you really know what death is? Is it really a cessation of your existence? If yes, then, how did the rich man from hell communicate with Lazarus?
It is a story. It didn't really happen. If existence continues in some form, why wouldn't it be natural and common for us to interface with it in some way?
If that was the case, then what would cows eat?



People were gathered on only one area on Earth. God told them to spread out, but they didn't listen. So, they continued doing about their business for all they care. With regards to language, only 8 in the ark were saved -- all Noah's family. It would be strange and impractical if they spoke more than one language at home, right? This is like speaking French on Monday, then Russian on Wednesday, then Japanese on Wednesday, and etc. It's obvious they spoke only one language. So, Noah's family multiplied and multiplied to the size of a small country and spoke only the original language of Noah.

So, the generations of Noah, being hardheaded and worshiping dumb wooden gods, and building a tower that reached the sky, God decided to give them multiple languages to force them to scatter throughout the Earth. People with the same languages began to group with another and people began to spread out.

The Earth would be a waste of space and resources if people did not spread out right? Who would mine the gold? Discover oil? The diamonds? Do you think we would reach this modern age and technological wonder if we did not spread out? Some rare earth metals which are needed for circuit boards can only be found in some parts of the world like China. And Earth would be a boring place if all spoke only English with one accent.
This is simply not true. Even Addams timeline of history had to concede that the Far East had civilization and language for thousands of years preceding this myth.
Hell is just an incinerator for waste products. Where are you going to put Hitler and Saddam Hussein?
Heaven if they accepted Jesus in the final moment.
God will not force anyone to believe him. It's the other way around dude. Instead he selects people to enable them to believe him so they can be saved because people are a hopeless case, that's why it has to be done that way.
It's an exclusive club for members only. Maybe, you should stop listening to cults. They are the ones scaring people about hell so they can join their cult group in order to buy their pastor a private jet and mansions. And please stop opening your door to strangers sharing their faith with you.
The cult of Calvinism. Another Biblical incoherency that proves the Bible has no human veracity.
If you hate problem solving, the bible will be difficult to understand. You'll begin to hallucinate and see talking snakes and magic trees and unicorns.
I think that states it right there. The Bible is a problem, not an answer.
 
Why would the Sun be created on the 1st day? There was a big bang on the first day -- let there be light. We don't really need the Sun to give light, right? Light is still light regardless of where it came from, be it from an explosion, collision, friction, heat, etc. It can also come from someone punching your face and you see bright stars.



Don't you ever wonder why humans are the only animals on Earth capable of creating, inventing, and building stuff? Can a pig or a cat think of something like E=mc2 or F=ma? How about create music like Mozart? How about create a beautiful painting? It's obvious that there is a huge division between man and animal. Why are we so advanced rather than them? So advanced that we managed to put a man on the moon. Can a cockroach do that? Do you see a horse use a fork and a knife to eat a baked human? Can they cook and create different recipes?

God is a creator. We were created after his image and likeness. So, that's where we got our creative skills.



- The tree is merely symbolic to represent life which is God and death which is the devil. It's like it's raining cats and dogs. God told Adam and Eve to avoid the devil and not to eat of it's fruit.

- What makes you think it's a snake? It's merely to describe some intelligent "being" as being cunning and crafty. This "serpent" was later cursed to crawl on its belly. If this was really a snake, then why the need to curse it, if it's already crawling on it's belly? This is like cursing a person to walk when he can already walk.



What makes you think that it's only one ark? Noah was given more than 100 years, right? I don't know of any boat maker that would take him 100 years to build a boat made of wood that size. And I don't know of any boat maker who would think that he could fit so many millions of species of animals in such a small space.

The truth is, Noah built more that one ark in that span of 100 years. One ark for predators, one ark for birds, one ark for farm animals, and etc. If you have the skills and knowledge to build a huge boat like Noah, just like a carpenter, he could already analyze how many animals can fit in the ark with those dimensions. God gave Noah the blueprint and it's up to Noah how many arks he would build.

100 years for 1 boat? Are you kidding? God told Noah to build an ark. He did not say Noah can build only one and fit all those animals like sardines in a can.

With regards to extermination, are you sure you really know what death is? Is it really a cessation of your existence? If yes, then, how did the rich man from hell communicate with Lazarus?



If that was the case, then what would cows eat?



People were gathered on only one area on Earth. God told them to spread out, but they didn't listen. So, they continued doing about their business for all they care. With regards to language, only 8 in the ark were saved -- all Noah's family. It would be strange and impractical if they spoke more than one language at home, right? This is like speaking French on Monday, then Russian on Wednesday, then Japanese on Wednesday, and etc. It's obvious they spoke only one language. So, Noah's family multiplied and multiplied to the size of a small country and spoke only the original language of Noah.

So, the generations of Noah, being hardheaded and worshiping dumb wooden gods, and building a tower that reached the sky, God decided to give them multiple languages to force them to scatter throughout the Earth. People with the same languages began to group with another and people began to spread out.

The Earth would be a waste of space and resources if people did not spread out right? Who would mine the gold? Discover oil? The diamonds? Do you think we would reach this modern age and technological wonder if we did not spread out? Some rare earth metals which are needed for circuit boards can only be found in some parts of the world like China. And Earth would be a boring place if all spoke only English with one accent.




Hell is just an incinerator for waste products. Where are you going to put Hitler and Saddam Hussein? God will not force anyone to believe him. It's the other way around dude. Instead he selects people to enable them to believe him so they can be saved because people are a hopeless case, that's why it has to be done that way. It's an exclusive club for members only. Maybe, you should stop listening to cults. They are the ones scaring people about hell so they can join their cult group in order to buy their pastor a private jet and mansions. And please stop opening your door to strangers sharing their faith with you.



If you hate problem solving, the bible will be difficult to understand. You'll begin to hallucinate and see talking snakes and magic trees and unicorns.

Seriously, where did I say "snake"? It's an origin story for snakes, like Aboriginal dreamtime stories.

People knockin on my door are JWs, and they don't believe in hell.

>>God will not force anyone to believe him.

It's people doing that, using scary stories. I wouldn't mind if God told me straight up, what was going on. (Possibly. It may be worse than we can imagine. That's why he makes us make things up for ourselves.

Your apologetics on creation don't match what is being said about parting waters and firmaments.

You made up stuff about Noah. There is only one boat in the story. Noah was not commanded to put all the plant species on the boat, because the author does not realize that plants die when under 8 miles of water. Perhaps he doesn't know how high the highest mountains are.

PS: I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on hell, specifically what Revelation is talking about. Are there 2 fires?
 

5wize

Well-known member
If you were placed in a room with the following:
  1. pile of one dollar bills
  2. pile of two dollar bills
  3. pile of three dollar bills
  4. pile of four dollar bills
  5. pile of five dollar bills
  6. pile of six dollar bills
  7. pile of seven dollar bills
  8. pile of eight dollar bills
  9. pile of nine dollar bills
  10. pile of ten dollar bills
And you were told to separate all the bills into two piles:
  1. legal tender
  2. non-legal tender
Could you do it?
If I was deciding what legal tender was I'd pick them all. The analogy doesn't work as I would be able to tell what was already decided for me.
 
2nd Peter 3:16 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

The perspicuity of the salvation message is presented in the Gospel as well as other books of the bible.

But you call the bible confusing...Often your sect will quote the following:

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

In doing so you being gnorant and unstable twist the above scripture...and it will result in your own destruction.

Is 2 Peter authentic? Sounds like one of those handy catch-all statements like all "scripture" is inspired, without stating which bits they could be. It allows you to append it to any group of fake books. Paul didn't know that John/Matthew/Revelation would be in the cannon, for example. I presume he would be egotistical enough to think his own epistles were scripture, though.
 

5wize

Well-known member
As far as I know the bult of calvinism is built on Pharoah's hardened heart story, and is a minority view.
I think it was based on the phenomenon of grace and how this is something wholly under God's control. There is nothing we can do to gain Heaven. God chooses an "elect" to receive this. It is pre-ordained. Does that tie in with the hardened heart of Pharaoh somehow? It could.
 
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