If Jesus is a created being and He did not preexist His incarnation then why....

herman

Member
Why is He identified or presented as the Agent of creation at John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10 by His own Father and at Revelation 3:14? John 1:3 clearly states, "ALL things came into being by Him and apart (or without Him) NOTHING came into being that has come into being."

In Him,
henry
 
This question makes no sense. Jesus "pre-existed" as the "only-born god" (John 1:18). Thus(, per God's will), as the agent of creation, the ages came into existencs through God's son (eg Hebrews 1:2).
 

herman

Member
It makes perfect and logical sense so let me expand my answer. First of all John 1:18 does indeed say, "the only begotten God." At least in my NASB. Notice in the verse it does not say, "as the only-born a god" as it does at John 1:1 of your NWT, why not?

Also JW's teach that before Jesus Christ preexisted as a man he was a spirit creature known as Michael the arc angel. Angels, including Michael nowhere in the Bible does any creating, let along the heavens and the earth.

Moreover, Isaiah 44:24 says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord am the maker of ALL things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Yet at John 1:3 you have the Apostle John saying, "ALL things came into being BY HIM/Jesus Christ, and apart (or without Him) NOTHING has come into being that has come into being."

So how do you explain God the Father creating "ALL ALONE AND ALL BY HIMSELF with Jesus creating ALL THINGS AND WITHOUT JESUS NOTHING HAS COME INTO BEING?" Are you going to tell me that God needed help when He said He created all alone?

So my original question still stands. Why is Jesus clearly presented as the agent of creation when God said He did it all alone? Btw, the Apostle Paul backs Jesus up at Colossians 1:15, "For BY HIM/Jesus Christ ALL things were CREATED
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS have been created BY HIM and for Him." Do you see that He created things that go beyond the heavens and earth. Please explain this?

In Him
herman
 
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It makes perfect and logical sense so let me expand my answer. First of all John 1:18 does indeed say, "the only begotten God." At least in my NASB. Notice in the verse it does not say, "as the only-born a god" as it does at John 1:1 of your NWT, why not?
The Greek at John 1:18 doesn't say "the only born a god".
(Also, English grammar doesn't work that way.)
Also JW's teach that before Jesus Christ preexisted as a man he was a spirit creature known as Michael the arc angel. Angels, including Michael nowhere in the Bible does any creating, let along the heavens and the earth.
If Jesus were Michael, such would be an "angel" being involved in creation(. Personally, I don't deny or confirm that Jesus is Michael, but am aware of how many in both outside and inside Orthodoxy have concluded this).

Of course, Biblically speaking, an "angel" (Hebrew MALAK/Greek AGGELOS) is simply a messenger--whether spirit (eg Luke 410) or human (eg Luke 7:24), so is not a type of being.
Moreover, Isaiah 44:24 says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord am the maker of ALL things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Yet at John 1:3 you have the Apostle John saying, "ALL things came into being BY HIM/Jesus Christ, and apart (or without Him) NOTHING has come into being that has come into being."

So how do you explain God the Father creating "ALL ALONE AND ALL BY HIMSELF with Jesus creating ALL THINGS AND WITHOUT JESUS NOTHING HAS COME INTO BEING?" Are you going to tell me that God needed help when He said He created all alone?

So my original question still stands. Why is Jesus clearly presented as the agent of creation when God said He did it all alone?
Firstly, that wasn't your original question. Nonetheless, Isaiah 44:24 is a rhetorical response to the "gods" of the nations (eg Isaiah 44:9), so would not apply to God's son.
Btw, the Apostle Paul backs Jesus up at Colossians 1:15, "For BY HIM/Jesus Christ ALL things were CREATED
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS have been created BY HIM and for Him." Do you see that He created things that go beyond the heavens and earth. Please explain this?

In Him
herman
Actually, the Greek says "in" (EN), "through" (DI'), and "for" (EIS) him. (Compare Hebrews 1:1, 2.)
 

herman

Member
The Greek at John 1:18 doesn't say "the only born a god".
(Also, English grammar doesn't work that way.)

If Jesus were Michael, such would be an "angel" being involved in creation(. Personally, I don't deny or confirm that Jesus is Michael, but am aware of how many in both outside and inside Orthodoxy have concluded this).

Of course, Biblically speaking, an "angel" (Hebrew MALAK/Greek AGGELOS) is simply a messenger--whether spirit (eg Luke 410) or human (eg Luke 7:24), so is not a type of being.

Firstly, that wasn't your original question. Nonetheless, Isaiah 44:24 is a rhetorical response to the "gods" of the nations (eg Isaiah 44:9), so would not apply to God's son.

Actually, the Greek says "in" (EN), "through" (DI'), and "for" (EIS) him. (Compare Hebrews 1:1, 2.)
I have to before I address your post. Are you JW? I'm asking for a reason.
I Him,
herman
 

herman

Member
The Greek at John 1:18 doesn't say "the only born a god".
(Also, English grammar doesn't work that way.)

If Jesus were Michael, such would be an "angel" being involved in creation(. Personally, I don't deny or confirm that Jesus is Michael, but am aware of how many in both outside and inside Orthodoxy have concluded this).

Of course, Biblically speaking, an "angel" (Hebrew MALAK/Greek AGGELOS) is simply a messenger--whether spirit (eg Luke 410) or human (eg Luke 7:24), so is not a type of being.

Firstly, that wasn't your original question. Nonetheless, Isaiah 44:24 is a rhetorical response to the "gods" of the nations (eg Isaiah 44:9), so would not apply to God's son.

Actually, the Greek says "in" (EN), "through" (DI'), and "for" (EIS) him. (Compare Hebrews 1:1, 2.)
You missed my point when you quoted John 1:18. Some manuscripts do say the "only begotten God." In your NWT at John 1:1 it states that the "Logos/Word is "a god." So where in the Bible does it say that "a god" created anything?

Isaiah 44:24 is not a rethortical question, it's an actual fact that God created the heavens and earth "All alone and by Himself." Since that is true why is your "a god" who you identify as Jesus Christ is credited with creation of "ALL" things without exception at John 1:3?

And at Colossians 1:16 you have added the word "other" or "all other things" in your NWT. Please explain what these "other things" are" that this "a god" created? Again, God created by Himself and All alone yet you have this "a god" person helping Him out.

In Him
herman
 
You missed my point when you quoted John 1:18. Some manuscripts do say the "only begotten God." In your NWT at John 1:1 it states that the "Logos/Word is "a god." So where in the Bible does it say that "a god" created anything?
Nowhere(, which is my point).

Not even "the Word" is stated to have created anything.
Isaiah 44:24 is not a rethortical question, it's an actual fact that God created the heavens and earth "All alone and by Himself."
I didn't say it was a rhetorical question. I said it was a "rhetorical response to the 'gods' of the nations (eg Isaiah 44:9)"(, or more accurately, a response to the Israelites who were worshipping the gods of the nations).
Since that is true why is your "a god" who you identify as Jesus Christ is credited with creation of "ALL" things without exception at John 1:3?
He's not.
And at Colossians 1:16 you have added the word "other" or "all other things" in your NWT.
It was added to exclude God and Jesus. As one scholar stated:
On Colossians 1:15-20, you have focused precisely on the key to this passage. By calling Jesus the "firstborn of creation" in v.15, Paul has explicitly identified Christ as part of creation. Amazingly, most Christians overlook this fact. The JW's draw attention to it by inserting [other] into the subsequent verses. A bit heavy handed, but in terms of the content and meaning of the passage, perfectly correct. Paul does not mean to assert that Christ created himself, and he of course did not create God; rather he is the agent of creating everything else.
IOW, by adding "other" to the text, it is made clear that "all things were created in him" excludes God and 'the firstborn of creation'.
Please explain what these "other things" are" that this "a god" created?
Again, the text doesn't say the Logos "created" anything.
Again, God created by Himself and All alone yet you have this "a god" person helping Him out.

In Him
herman
See above.
 

herman

Member
Nowhere(, which is my point).

Not even "the Word" is stated to have created anything.

I didn't say it was a rhetorical question. I said it was a "rhetorical response to the 'gods' of the nations (eg Isaiah 44:9)"(, or more accurately, a response to the Israelites who were worshipping the gods of the nations).

He's not.

It was added to exclude God and Jesus. As one scholar stated:

IOW, by adding "other" to the text, it is made clear that "all things were created in him" excludes God and 'the firstborn of creation'.

Again, the text doesn't say the Logos "created" anything.

See above.

Let me see if I can clear this up for you. You clearly said, "Not even "the Word" is stated to have created anything." In your NWT you clearly identified the "a god" as the person of Jesus Christ. At verse 2 the NWT says, "This one (meaning the Word/a god) was in (the) beginning with God," I don't know why you have the word "the" in brackets? The truth is that in the original Greek the word "the" is not in the text nor does it make any difference in translation.

Genesis 1:1 starts out, "In the beginning" just like here in John 1:1. Eliminating the word "the" does not (as I said have an affect on the meaning. The text simply says at Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, "in beginning." which is perfectly fine. At John 1:3 we read, "All things came into existence through him and apart from him not even on thing came into existence. What has come into existence.

You and your organization try to make the argument that God the Father created "through or by" the Son. Did you ever pick up a dictionary and read what the definition of "through" and "by" is? The word "by" is used to indicate the manner of something, origin or by the agency of.

Through is used to indicate The manner in which something is achieved. Now, some may not understand the difference between by and through clearly. This is normal, as these prepositions are sometimes used interchangeably. However, it is easy to distinguish the difference between these two prepositions by keeping in mind that "by" is mostly used when referring to a means of something, and "through is used in relation to a process.

So when Colossians 1:16 for example says, "For (or because) BY (in the Greek "en) Him all things were created etc. it means exactly what it says. At John 1:3, both words can be applied, "by or through." Through in the Greek is "di" By in the Greek is "en" as I already explained.

The point of this little exercise is to show that the "a god" who you identify as Jesus Christ did create and I proved it not only here but at Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14. Btw, 1 John 1:1 identifies Jesus Christ as the Word. "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the "Word of Life." Even little words like prepositions are important when used in sentences. As a side note even the little word "a/an mean something different from the word "the."

In Him,
herman
 
Let me see if I can clear this up for you. You clearly said, "Not even "the Word" is stated to have created anything." In your NWT you clearly identified the "a god" as the person of Jesus Christ.
The word is not "identifed as a god", but is categorized as QEOS.
At verse 2 the NWT says, "This one (meaning the Word/a god) was in (the) beginning with God," I don't know why you have the word "the" in brackets? The truth is that in the original Greek the word "the" is not in the text nor does it make any difference in translation.

Genesis 1:1 starts out, "In the beginning" just like here in John 1:1. Eliminating the word "the" does not (as I said have an affect on the meaning. The text simply says at Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, "in beginning." which is perfectly fine.
The phrase 'in beginning' is not "perfectly fine" in English. But you just explained why "the" is in brackets.
At John 1:3 we read, "All things came into existence through him and apart from him not even on thing came into existence. What has come into existence.

You and your organization try to make the argument that God the Father created "through or by" the Son. Did you ever pick up a dictionary and read what the definition of "through" and "by" is? The word "by" is used to indicate the manner of something, origin or by the agency of.

Through is used to indicate The manner in which something is achieved. Now, some may not understand the difference between by and through clearly. This is normal, as these prepositions are sometimes used interchangeably. However, it is easy to distinguish the difference between these two prepositions by keeping in mind that "by" is mostly used when referring to a means of something, and "through is used in relation to a process.

So when Colossians 1:16 for example says, "For (or because) BY (in the Greek "en) Him all things were created etc. it means exactly what it says. At John 1:3, both words can be applied, "by or through." Through in the Greek is "di" By in the Greek is "en" as I already explained.

The point of this little exercise is to show that the "a god" who you identify as Jesus Christ did create and I proved it not only here but at Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14. Btw, 1 John 1:1 identifies Jesus Christ as the Word. "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the "Word of Life." Even little words like prepositions are important when used in sentences. As a side note even the little word "a/an mean something different from the word "the."

In Him,
herman
I address this here.
 

Nathan P

Member
It makes perfect and logical sense so let me expand my answer. First of all John 1:18 does indeed say, "the only begotten God." At least in my NASB. Notice in the verse it does not say, "as the only-born a god" as it does at John 1:1 of your NWT, why not?

Also JW's teach that before Jesus Christ preexisted as a man he was a spirit creature known as Michael the arc angel. Angels, including Michael nowhere in the Bible does any creating, let along the heavens and the earth.

Moreover, Isaiah 44:24 says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord am the maker of ALL things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Yet at John 1:3 you have the Apostle John saying, "ALL things came into being BY HIM/Jesus Christ, and apart (or without Him) NOTHING has come into being that has come into being."

So how do you explain God the Father creating "ALL ALONE AND ALL BY HIMSELF with Jesus creating ALL THINGS AND WITHOUT JESUS NOTHING HAS COME INTO BEING?" Are you going to tell me that God needed help when He said He created all alone?

So my original question still stands. Why is Jesus clearly presented as the agent of creation when God said He did it all alone? Btw, the Apostle Paul backs Jesus up at Colossians 1:15, "For BY HIM/Jesus Christ ALL things were CREATED
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS have been created BY HIM and for Him." Do you see that He created things that go beyond the heavens and earth. Please explain this?

In Him
herman
How many times does it have to be explained that only the Father does the creating at those vss. The him who is the creator at John 1:4 has to be the Father because the life in the him is Jesus and thus the him and the life can not both be Jesus. Since the life in the him is Jesus that leaves the Father as being the him or the creator.
 

TibiasDad

Member
How many times does it have to be explained that only the Father does the creating at those vss.

It's a designer that designs and wills the building of a project, but hires a second party to do the actual work and then gets all the credit for building it "himself"! Is God a man that he should work that way?


Doug
 
I note the lack of identification of who "the scholar" is, and the source of the quotation. It could not have been a authentic Trinitarian.

Doug
Are you under the (false) impression that all "Greek scholars" are Trinitarians?

(Or maybe you were unaware that the majority of "well-known Greek scholars" who are Trinitarians have studied but hold no degrees in the Biblical Languages.)
 
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