If Jesus Is Human

[Kade Rystalmane]

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15)

I affirm that Jesus is fully God (Col. 2:9). I believe Calvinists do as well (if I'm wrong, please correct me.)

If we also accept that Jesus is fully human then there are some issues that Calvinism must address.

1. If Jesus is fully human, did He have a "sin nature"?
2. If Jesus is fully human, and did not have a sin nature, how was He in all points tempted like as we are tempted?
3. If Jesus is fully human, and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, yet without sin, can we do the same?
4. Did Jesus have supernatural help in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning?
5. Could He actually, really have sinned at all?
6. If Jesus had supernatural assistance in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning or if He couldn't actually have really sinned, how is He a meaningful, functional representative sacrifice for us?
7. Does Jesus have free will?
8. If Jesus has free will and we do not, how was He tempted like as we are tempted?
and finally...
9. If Jesus has free will and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, does this not demand the conclusion that we, too, have free will?

I'm sure these questions can be phrased better and most likely have been addressed before. I did not see this topic in the first couple of pages in the A & C forum, so forgive me for the repetition. I do hope folks who read this can see what I'm getting at here.

In Truth and Love.

 

[Theo1689]

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15)

I affirm that Jesus is fully God (Col. 2:9). I believe Calvinists do as well (if I'm wrong, please correct me.)

Of course we do.

If we also accept that Jesus is fully human then there are some issues that Calvinism must address.

Why "must" we address them?
And why would our answers be any different than non-Calvinist answers?

1. If Jesus is fully human, did He have a "sin nature"?

Scripture says He was without sin.

2. If Jesus is fully human, and did not have a sin nature, how was He in all points tempted like as we are tempted?

Because Scripture says He was.

3. If Jesus is fully human, and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, yet without sin, can we do the same?

Scripture says we are slaves to sin.

4. Did Jesus have supernatural help in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning?

Jesus is God. Why would He need "help"?

5. Could He actually, really have sinned at all?

Why wouldn't He be able to?

6. If Jesus had supernatural assistance in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning or if He couldn't actually have really sinned, how is He a meaningful, functional representative sacrifice for us?

Scripture said He is our sacrifice.

7. Does Jesus have free will?

Where is "free will" taught in the Bible?

8. If Jesus has free will and we do not, how was He tempted like as we are tempted?
and finally...

Where is "free will" taught in the Bible?

9. If Jesus has free will and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, does this not demand the conclusion that we, too, have free will?

Where is "free will" taught in the Bible?

 

[guest1]

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15)

I affirm that Jesus is fully God (Col. 2:9). I believe Calvinists do as well (if I'm wrong, please correct me.)

If we also accept that Jesus is fully human then there are some issues that Calvinism must address.

1. If Jesus is fully human, did He have a "sin nature"?
2. If Jesus is fully human, and did not have a sin nature, how was He in all points tempted like as we are tempted?
3. If Jesus is fully human, and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, yet without sin, can we do the same?
4. Did Jesus have supernatural help in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning?
5. Could He actually, really have sinned at all?
6. If Jesus had supernatural assistance in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning or if He couldn't actually have really sinned, how is He a meaningful, functional representative sacrifice for us?
7. Does Jesus have free will?
8. If Jesus has free will and we do not, how was He tempted like as we are tempted?
and finally...
9. If Jesus has free will and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, does this not demand the conclusion that we, too, have free will?

I'm sure these questions can be phrased better and most likely have been addressed before. I did not see this topic in the first couple of pages in the A & C forum, so forgive me for the repetition. I do hope folks who read this can see what I'm getting at here.

In Truth and Love.

Jesus is Impeccable just the same as the Father and Holy Spirit are Impeccable.

Have you studied the Hypostatic Union?

It answers all your questions.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Theo1689]

One of the question is logical based upon the Hypostatic Union....

Freewill in Deity implies freewill in God's creative action to make man in His own image.

That's like saying Omnipotence in Deity implies omnipotence in God's creative action to make man in His own image.

And so your argument is a PERFECT example of how "rationalization" is unreliable and worthless.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Jesus is Impeccable just the same as the Father and Holy Spirit are Impeccable.

Have you studied the Hypostatic Union?

It answers all your questions.

hope this helps !!!

I was hoping to actually engage the Calvinists here and get their direct answers in order to discuss this.

 

[CrowCross]

7. Does Jesus have free will?

Can you define what you mean by "free will"?

 

[Theo1689]

Omnipotence would be contrary to what God has said about "Sharing His Glory" with another.

So would "free will".
I mean, as long as you want to "rationalize"...

However, freewill is an essential aspect of nature

And where does Scripture teach that?
Oh, that's right... "Rationalization".
That magic word that allows you to create an entire theology out of whole cloth.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

I am likewise puzzled by this exclusion of Arminians. Us Arminians just get no respect. Hopefully I can still answer as well.

I was not attempting to be disrespectful to Arminians and apologize if I came across that way. I did not want to address two distinct groups with my questions to prevent confusion on my part.

1. No.

How could Jesus, born after the Fall, be fully human and not have a sin nature?

2. The verse adds "apart from sin," so it qualifies the "in all points" grammatically.

I don't see how this changes the thrust of my questions.

3. We cannot be sinlessly perfect because the Bible acknowledges the limitations of grace in that area. We can overcome the power of sin in the main through the Work of the Cross, that is, functionally Jesus lives through us.

Your second sentence assumes the answer to the question so I will not deal with it directly.

Could you explain what you mean by your first sentence? How do the "limitations of grace" keep us from being sinlessly perfect?

4. Yes, he had the Spirit without measure and a perfect spiritual nature.

So if Jesus had help, does that not make Him a "fake" representative for us on the cross? He basically "cheated".

5. I believe so, but the matter is debatable, in my opinion.

If you believe He could have actually really sinned, how does that harmonize with your answer to number 4?

6. Jesus does not need to be sinful to represent sinners. The compassion we are told of comes from experience of weakness, not sinfulness.

I agree that Jesus did not need to be sinful to represent sinners. However, the way the Bible presents Jesus is that He is the same as us, but did not sin. So He had to have the same capacity and have the same opportunities and the same measure of divine help as we have else He is not the same as us and cannot represent us because He is not really us.

7. As an Arminian, I believe he did.

As neither, I do too.

8. It was apart from sin. The text clearly says it was "apart from sin" in the singular, as a sin principle.

I do not understand what this means.

9. Although I believe we and Jesus have free will, I honestly don't see how your argument follows.

Perhaps it is because of some of the answers you gave above where we differ that you do not understand my reasoning? I do not know.

Thank you for your responses.

In Truth and Love.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Can you define what you mean by "free will"?

I believe it is sometimes called "libertarian free will", that is, the true, real, actual capacity to make choices without constraint of need or fate. It is not simply the appearance of free will, or accommodative in nature.

 

[Theo1689]

Well. You're using reason

Of course I am.
What I am against is rationalization, not reason.

I put before you this day both life and death...... Do you remember those words?

Yep.
I've had them thrown in my face hundreds of times by people who don't even know what they mean.

Fundamentals of nature.

I'm sorry you don't understand the difference between an imperative and an indicative.

 

[CrowCross]

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15)

I affirm that Jesus is fully God (Col. 2:9). I believe Calvinists do as well (if I'm wrong, please correct me.)

If we also accept that Jesus is fully human then there are some issues that Calvinism must address.

1. If Jesus is fully human, did He have a "sin nature"?

No He did not have a sin nature.

2. If Jesus is fully human, and did not have a sin nature, how was He in all points tempted like as we are tempted?

There is a difference in being tempted and succumbing to temptation.

3. If Jesus is fully human, and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, yet without sin, can we do the same?

As Christians, yes.

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it.

4. Did Jesus have supernatural help in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning?

Sort of....He was born of the Holy Spirit. That is He didn't have a human father. This means He didn't have a sin nature.
Of course considering He was God, second of the trinity that might count.

5. Could He actually, really have sinned at all?

I say no.

6. If Jesus had supernatural assistance in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning or if He couldn't actually have really sinned, how is He a meaningful, functional representative sacrifice for us?

He was fully human.

7. Does Jesus have free will?

Yes.

8. If Jesus has free will and we do not, how was He tempted like as we are tempted?
and finally...

You're free to choose whatever color shirt you want to wear today. As for choosing your salvation, God chooses you.

9. If Jesus has free will and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, does this not demand the conclusion that we, too, have free will?

See above.

I'm sure these questions can be phrased better and most likely have been addressed before. I did not see this topic in the first couple of pages in the A & C forum, so forgive me for the repetition. I do hope folks who read this can see what I'm getting at here.

In Truth and Love.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Thank you for your response.

No He did not have a sin nature.

If Jesus did not have a sin nature, how was tempted like as we are tempted? He isn't the same as us.

There is a difference in being tempted and succumbing to temptation.

Agreed, but isn't saying that Jesus did not have a sin nature saying that He is not the same as us and therefore He was not tempted the way we are tempted?

As Christians, yes.

I am surprised (and glad) that you even allow this. I have not heard this before from those outside of my own faith.

I don't see that it is limited to Christians, though. If Jesus is fully human and could live without sin, then isn't it a necessary conclusion that we, who are fully human, can live without ever sinning?

Sort of....He was born of the Holy Spirit. That is He didn't have a human father. This means He didn't have a sin nature.
Of course considering He was God, second of the trinity that might count.


I say no.

If Jesus had extra help and could not have actually ever really sinned (basically He "cheated") then how is He a meaningful representation of us on the cross? He isn't actually one of us and wasn't actually tempted like as we are tempted. It's not really a temptation if you can't actually give in to whatever is attempting to tempt you.

He was fully human.

But how can He be fully human if He had no sin nature and could not have really sinned as Calvinists (generally) teach that those are human traits.

Yes.

Then as one who is fully human, why don't other humans have free will?

You're free to choose whatever color shirt you want to wear today. As for choosing your salvation, God chooses you.

This doesn't really answer the question.

See above.

That didn't really answer the question.

In Truth and Love.

 

[CrowCross]

I believe it is sometimes called "libertarian free will", that is, the true, real, actual capacity to make choices without constraint of need or fate. It is not simply the appearance of free will, or accommodative in nature.

Free-will is a bit more complicated than you think. You will always choose what you desire. Calvinist R.C. Sproul taught that.
Concerning what color shirt you want to wear...you can choose blue if you want to. Concerning your salvation,,,you're dead in your sins and trespass and can't choose. God has to make you alive in Christ...step 1.

 

[Theo1689]

If Jesus did not have a sin nature, how was tempted like as we are tempted?

I don't know.
Maybe we'll have to ask God one day.
But I believe Scripture.
I'm sorry if you don't.

I am surprised (and glad) that you even allow this. I have not heard this before from those outside of my own faith.

It's Scripture.

I don't see that it is limited to Christians, though. If Jesus is fully human and could live without sin, then isn't it a necessary conclusion that we, who are fully human, can live without ever sinning?

This is a Pelagian view that is contradicted by Scripture.

If Jesus had extra help and could not have actually ever really sinned (basically He "cheated") then how is He a meaningful representation of us on the cross?

Scripture said He was.
Why do you continue to ask questions which suggest you don't believe Scripture?

It's not really a temptation if you can't actually give in to whatever is attempting to tempt you.

Where does Scripture teach that?

But how can He be fully human if He had no sin nature and could not have really sinned as Calvinists (generally) teach that those are human traits.

So you reject Scripture that teaches that Jesus was fully human?

Then as one who is fully human, why don't other humans have free will?

We aren't God.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Free-will is a bit more complicated than you think.

I do not agree.

You will always choose what you desire. Calvinist R.C. Sproul taught that.

Uninspired men have no spiritual authority so what they say is not really relevant to me.

Jesus said "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." So it is evident that we do not always need to choose what we desire. We can deny our desires and choose other.

Concerning what color shirt you want to wear...you can choose blue if you want to. Concerning your salvation,,,you're dead in your sins and trespass and can't choose.

I do not accept this definition of death. Spiritual death does not equate to physical death. The Bible does not define spiritual death as incapable of choice, incapable of response. It defines spiritual death as a separation from God (Isa. 59:2). Can you show me where spiritual death is every equated with inability to choose in scripture?

God has to make you alive in Christ...step 1.

I believe the first step is to hear the gospel (Rom. 10). Being made alive in Christ is step 5 when you are immersed in water into Christ for the remission of your sins.

In Truth and Love.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

It was just a joke.

Oh good. Sometimes text is hard to discern. I'll respond to the rest later as I need to head out for a bit. Talk to you then!

 

[Theo1689]

I do not agree.

Uninspired men have no spiritual authority so what they say is not really relevant to me.

That's why your comments are usually not really relevant to me, either.

Jesus said "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." So it is evident that we do not always need to choose what we desire. We can deny our desires and choose other.

Uninspired men have no spiritual authority so what they say is not really relevant to me.

I accept Scripture, but I reject the conclusion you jumped to.

I do not accept this definition of death.

Uninspired men have no spiritual authority so what you say is not really relevant to me.

The Bible does not define spiritual death as incapable of choice, incapable of response.

Nobody has said that man is "incapable of choice".
So you are arguing against a straw-man.

Can you show me where spiritual death is every equated with inability to choose in scripture?

Why would he need to "show" you something he never claimed?

Oh, and btw:

Uninspired men have no spiritual authority so what you say is not really relevant to me.

Being made alive in Christ is step 5 when you are immersed in water into Christ for the remission of your sins.

Uninspired men have no spiritual authority so what you say is not really relevant to me.

 

[CrowCross]

Thank you for your response.


If Jesus did not have a sin nature, how was tempted like as we are tempted? He isn't the same as us.

I don't think you understand what a sin nature is....Here's a definition

The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing. ref

Agreed, but isn't saying that Jesus did not have a sin nature saying that He is not the same as us and therefore He was not tempted the way we are tempted?

You can sin without a sin nature.

I am surprised (and glad) that you even allow this. I have not heard this before from those outside of my own faith.

It's what the bible teaches.

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it.

I don't see that it is limited to Christians, though. If Jesus is fully human and could live without sin, then isn't it a necessary conclusion that we, who are fully human, can live without ever sinning?

Technically yes...but we all eventually sin...all men sin...all men have a sin nature and are naturally rebellious against God

If Jesus had extra help and could not have actually ever really sinned (basically He "cheated") then how is He a meaningful representation of us on the cross? He isn't actually one of us and wasn't actually tempted like as we are tempted. It's not really a temptation if you can't actually give in to whatever is attempting to tempt you.

You don't need a sin nature to sin...look at Adam and Eve. There sin nature came after the fall.

But how can He be fully human if He had no sin nature and could not have really sinned as Calvinists (generally) teach that those are human traits.

Once again...you can sin without a sin nature...look at the fallen angels.

Then as one who is fully human, why don't other humans have free will?

Humans have free-will..You're free to choose the color of the shirt you want to wear. As for your salvation humans can't choose Jesus. God has to make you alive in Christ first. Make you born again. Those who God chooses were chosen before the world was made.

This doesn't really answer the question.

That didn't really answer the question.

It showed the two types of free-will.

In Truth and Love.

 

[ReverendRV]

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15)

I affirm that Jesus is fully God (Col. 2:9). I believe Calvinists do as well (if I'm wrong, please correct me.)

If we also accept that Jesus is fully human then there are some issues that Calvinism must address.

1. If Jesus is fully human, did He have a "sin nature"?
2. If Jesus is fully human, and did not have a sin nature, how was He in all points tempted like as we are tempted?
3. If Jesus is fully human, and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, yet without sin, can we do the same?
4. Did Jesus have supernatural help in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning?
5. Could He actually, really have sinned at all?
6. If Jesus had supernatural assistance in some way that we don't have to avoid sinning or if He couldn't actually have really sinned, how is He a meaningful, functional representative sacrifice for us?
7. Does Jesus have free will?
8. If Jesus has free will and we do not, how was He tempted like as we are tempted?
and finally...
9. If Jesus has free will and was in all points tempted like as we are tempted, does this not demand the conclusion that we, too, have free will?

I'm sure these questions can be phrased better and most likely have been addressed before. I did not see this topic in the first couple of pages in the A & C forum, so forgive me for the repetition. I do hope folks who read this can see what I'm getting at here.

In Truth and Love.

Welcome to CARM, and this is a good OP. It's probably not an Arminian versus Calvinism Post but it is intriguing. So if you would like to take it one at a time, I'd say the answer to number one is that Jesus was the Second Adam and neither of them had a Sin Nature until they would Sin. Adam was not Created with a Sin Nature, that's a Nature he earned...

Jesus never earned a Sin Nature...

 

[CrowCross]

I do not agree.

Then you just showed me you don't understand free-will.
Did you know history has already happened for God?

Uninspired men have no spiritual authority so what they say is not really relevant to me.

Kinda snarky....I choose R.C.Sproul because he was a calvinist...a well respected and learned calvinist...which is what one of your post was asking for.

Just for the record, who would you consider as an inspired man?

Jesus said "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." So it is evident that we do not always need to choose what we desire. We can deny our desires and choose other.

John 6:65 tells us.....And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

You can't even deny yourself, take up a cross and follow Jesus unless it is granted by God.

I do not accept this definition of death. Spiritual death does not equate to physical death.

Tell us something new.

The Bible does not define spiritual death as incapable of choice, incapable of response. It defines spiritual death as a separation from God (Isa. 59:2). Can you show me where spiritual death is every equated with inability to choose in scripture?

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Do yo need me to break it down for you?

I believe the first step is to hear the gospel (Rom. 10). Being made alive in Christ is step 5 when you are immersed in water into Christ for the remission of your sins.

That's a false gospel....John 3:16 says NOTHING about baptism. As a matter of fact if baptism was a requirement for salvation there would be a chapter or two talking about it.
Secondly, because of what Jesus did...lived a perfect sin free life, died in our place amongst other things He did for us in our place...baptism in the Jordon would have been one of them.

In Truth and Love.