If salvation is predetermined, why pray for the salvation of others?

eternomade

Well-known member
Their reliance upon their own efforts was a symptom of their unbelief.

If any person looks to establish their own righteousness through their own efforts, they are literally discarding the death of Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

My answer to God in that day will be, Jesus Christ alone is all I have and is certainly more than enough.
I think we agree on this, weird.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
What do you disagree with from John Mac
Here is something I wrote up a few weeks ago...

"A few years ago I read a sermon by John MacArthur on Matthew 7:21-23. I was concerned then and I am concerned now. Here is the text in scripture:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
Matthew 7:21‭-‬23 ESV

In his attempt to combat free grace(easy believism) he ends up conflating grace and the law, elevating man's responsibility in salvation, and ultimately preaching a false gospel, giving people a false assurance. He is preaching like a double minded man.

He also doesn't seem to understand justification or sanctification, or what the Gospel even is. Here are a few examples of how he is watering down the Gospel:

"And Jesus said further, it’s not only difficult because it’s hard to find, it’s away from the crowd, it’s a narrow gate, but because you must agonize to enter it, He said in the gospel of Luke. In other words there must be penitence and confession and repentance and soul-searching and brokenness."

"And in 15 to 20, the Lord says, “False prophets add to the difficulty because they stand in the way and they chase people onto the broad road.” They’re the ones trying to divert everybody for Satan’s purposes and Satan’s ends, telling people they can go through the wide gate with all their sin and selfishness and they can flop from side to side and wander all over a great big wide road and there’s little price to pay."

"And so the Lord offers a choice and a verdict, a decision."

"Now you will notice that at the end of verse 21 you have a key word there. “But he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven.” It is not the ones who say and it is not the ones who hear, it is the ones who what? Who do. In other words the Lord is saying, “If you do not live a righteous life I don’t care what you say or what you hear. You’re deceived.”"

"Listen if you feel in your heart that you want to invite Jesus Christ to become the Lord and Savior of your life and you’ve done it before, do it again."

He also refers to the Gospel as an invitation rather than a declaration. He does show man's total inability at times but also man's ability at others. What is it? Is the gospel conditioned open Jesus Christ or ourselves. Is our assurance based upon Jesus Christ or ourselves?

Whether John MacArthur is intentionally deceiving or he is deceived himself, I am not sure.

The Gospel is narrative of what Christ has already done for His people."
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
No. The Spirit's work was exclusive to the person of Jesus Christ during His Advent.

Jesus said that words He spoke were Spirit and Life...

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The words of Jesus Christ recorded in God's inspired word is not the Spirit's work?
 
G

guest1

Guest
Here is something I wrote up a few weeks ago...

"A few years ago I read a sermon by John MacArthur on Matthew 7:21-23. I was concerned then and I am concerned now. Here is the text in scripture:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
Matthew 7:21‭-‬23 ESV

In his attempt to combat free grace(easy believism) he ends up conflating grace and the law, elevating man's responsibility in salvation, and ultimately preaching a false gospel, giving people a false assurance. He is preaching like a double minded man.

He also doesn't seem to understand justification or sanctification, or what the Gospel even is. Here are a few examples of how he is watering down the Gospel:

"And Jesus said further, it’s not only difficult because it’s hard to find, it’s away from the crowd, it’s a narrow gate, but because you must agonize to enter it, He said in the gospel of Luke. In other words there must be penitence and confession and repentance and soul-searching and brokenness."

"And in 15 to 20, the Lord says, “False prophets add to the difficulty because they stand in the way and they chase people onto the broad road.” They’re the ones trying to divert everybody for Satan’s purposes and Satan’s ends, telling people they can go through the wide gate with all their sin and selfishness and they can flop from side to side and wander all over a great big wide road and there’s little price to pay."

"And so the Lord offers a choice and a verdict, a decision."

"Now you will notice that at the end of verse 21 you have a key word there. “But he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven.” It is not the ones who say and it is not the ones who hear, it is the ones who what? Who do. In other words the Lord is saying, “If you do not live a righteous life I don’t care what you say or what you hear. You’re deceived.”"

"Listen if you feel in your heart that you want to invite Jesus Christ to become the Lord and Savior of your life and you’ve done it before, do it again."

He also refers to the Gospel as an invitation rather than a declaration. He does show man's total inability at times but also man's ability at others. What is it? Is the gospel conditioned open Jesus Christ or ourselves. Is our assurance based upon Jesus Christ or ourselves?

Whether John MacArthur is intentionally deceiving or he is deceived himself, I am not sure.

The Gospel is narrative of what Christ has already done for His people."
I think you might be misunderstanding his position . I pretty much am spot on with his beliefs. He is saying no fruit, no root. Faith without works is dead. Real faith produces good works.

Have you read the gospel according to Jesus by him ?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I think you might be misunderstanding his position . I pretty much am spot on with his beliefs. He is saying no fruit, no root. Faith without works is dead. Real faith produces good works.

Have you read the gospel according to Jesus by him ?
I havent. Do you recommend that? What do you think he means whren he said this?

"Now you will notice that at the end of verse 21 you have a key word there. “But he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven.” It is not the ones who say and it is not the ones who hear, it is the ones who what? Who do. In other words the Lord is saying, “If you do not live a righteous life I don’t care what you say or what you hear. You’re deceived.”

How does one live a righteous life? I believe by faith.

Edit: I believe this passage is talking about a person similar to the Pharisees. They looked perfect on the outside but had a dead faith.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
The disciples literally had Jesus Christ. In fact, the Spirit of God was "shut up" in Christ when Jesus was baptized. ...

It is a biblical phrase used in certain Scriptures.

Luk 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
Are you saying the Holy Spirit was absent from Jesus, according to Luke 4:25?
 
G

guest1

Guest
I havent. Do you recommend that? What do you think he means whren he said this?

"Now you will notice that at the end of verse 21 you have a key word there. “But he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven.” It is not the ones who say and it is not the ones who hear, it is the ones who what? Who do. In other words the Lord is saying, “If you do not live a righteous life I don’t care what you say or what you hear. You’re deceived.”

How does one live a righteous life? I believe by faith.
It’s the best book I’ve ever read on Jesus teaching on the gospel.
 
G

guest1

Guest
I havent. Do you recommend that? What do you think he means whren he said this?

"Now you will notice that at the end of verse 21 you have a key word there. “But he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven.” It is not the ones who say and it is not the ones who hear, it is the ones who what? Who do. In other words the Lord is saying, “If you do not live a righteous life I don’t care what you say or what you hear. You’re deceived.”

How does one live a righteous life? I believe by faith.

Edit: I believe this passage is talking about a person similar to the Pharisees. They looked perfect on the outside but had a dead faith.
Yes he is saying what I previously said that a believer will produce fruit of good works as per Ephesians 2:8-10
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Yes he is saying what I previously said that a believer will produce fruit of good works as per Ephesians 2:8-10
Gotcha. Do you believe someone can believe the Gospel and not be saved? I don't. This seems to be what J Mac is implying. Or i could just have no idea what he is talking about.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Gotcha. Do you believe someone can believe the Gospel and not be saved? I don't. This seems to be what J Mac is implying. Or i could just have no idea what he is talking about.
I think a person can acknowledge those facts are true yet no believe them and make it personal . I did that for a few years before the Lord broke me down and humbled me.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You prefer various facets?
Actually I don't prefer either. Those exist in your mind only unless you want to put your money where your mouth is.

Coming to your own conclusions based on emotionalism and your own faulty logic and calling those thoughts various facets YOU are trying to wrap your mind around, tells it's own story.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Actually I don't prefer either. Those exist in your mind only...
Let's see: 3-point Calvinists, 4-point Calvinists, 5-point Calvinists, Hyper-Calvinists, double predestionation, single predestination, supralapsarian, infralapsarian, hard determinism, soft determinism,
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Rephrase:
Amyraldism, 5-point Calvinists, Hyper-Calvinists, double predestionation, single predestination, supralapsarian, infralapsarian, hard determinism, soft determinism,

Would you agree there are various flavours of Calvinism?
Yes, because it takes at least all five Points for a person to be a Calvinist. Other flavors exist, but Calvinism doesn't exist without all five Points...
 

Theophilos

Well-known member
Not a great argument, the answer would simply be he was predetermined to do so and only meant the elect.

The real puzzling thing in that section is Paul asking to go against the decree of God and become reprobate.
Paul saw no contradiction between human free will and God's sovereignty. God does what he wants, and he wants to answer our prayers.

That is why there is no contradiction between these two statements:

The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus. 2 Tim 1:17-18

God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. . . Romans 9:18
 
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