If salvation is predetermined, why pray for the salvation of others?

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Would you say Calvinists must adhere to TULIP, but are free to choose their preferred System of Theology?
Well, Civic is a 5-Point Calvinist; and a Premillennial Dispensationalist. I'm a 5-Point Calvinist and am a Covenantalist...

Really, it's TULIP that makes someone a Calvinist...
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Would you say Calvinists must adhere to TULIP, but are free to choose their preferred System of Theology?
I describe it like this...

A racecar has several sponsors, but the main sponsor gets to put his big sticker on the hood; while other sponsors get quarter panels and smaller stickers. I think TULIP belongs on a quarter panel instead of the hood. I think Evangelicalism deserves the big sticker and belongs on the hood...

If someone believes Calvinism is on the hood, and Evangelicalism is a bumper sticker; you just may be a Hyper Calvinist. On Forums like this, it could seem that Calvinists put Evangelicalism on the bumper; but that's not true...
 
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eternomade

Well-known member
I describe it like this...

A racecar has several sponsors, but the main sponsor gets to put his big sticker on the hood; while other sponsors get quarter panels and smaller stickers. I think TULIP belongs on a quarter panel instead of the hood. I think Evangelicalism deserves the big sticker and belongs on the hood...

If someone believes Calvinism is on the hood, and Evangelicalism is a bumper sticker; you just may be a Hyper Calvinist. On Forums like this, it could seem that Calvinists put Evangelicalism on the bumper; but that's not true...
Evangelism is NECESSARY. Amen.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Paul saw no contradiction between human free will and God's sovereignty.

Paul never TAUGHT about "human free will".
He taught deadness in sin.
He taught slavery in sin.
He taught inability to please God.

God does what he wants, and he wants to answer our prayers.

Nope.
Scripture NEVER teaches "God wants to answer our prayers".
He taught that He wants us to prayer, but that is to put us in submission and dependence on Him.

That is why there is no contradiction between these two statements:

The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus. 2 Tim 1:17-18

Nothing about "human free will" there.

God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. . . Romans 9:18

Amen!
And nothing about "human free will" there.
 

Theophilos

Well-known member
He taught that He wants us to prayer, but that is to put us in submission and dependence on Him.
Nothing about "human free will" there.
Amen!
And nothing about "human free will" there.
If God's mercy is predetermined and unchangeble then why is Paul praying for mercy on Onesiphorus and his household?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If God's mercy is predetermined and unchangeble then why is Paul praying for mercy on Onesiphorus and his household?

Your self-serving question proves that you are projecting your beliefs onto Scripture, and trying to defend your false teachings from rationalization.

Nothing Paul said in ANY of his epistles speaks of "free will".

Why is Paul praying?
Because God commands us to pray.

If you want to know why Paul did anything he did, I suggest you ask HIM, not me. I'm unable to read the minds of people who have been dead for 2000 years, even though others claim to have this magical, imaginary "gift".
 

Theophilos

Well-known member
Scripture NEVER teaches "God wants to answer our prayers".
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
Matthew 7:7-11
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
Matthew 7:7-11

You really think I'm that ignorant of Scripture, that I didn't know about this passage?

Where does it say, "God wants"?

You really are completely oblivious to how much of your theology you PROJECT onto Scripture, aren't you?
 

Theophilos

Well-known member
You really think I'm that ignorant of Scripture, that I didn't know about this passage?

Where does it say, "God wants"?

You really are completely oblivious to how much of your theology you PROJECT onto Scripture, aren't you?
Yes, Christ says that God's generosity is far beyond that of human fathers so there is no real comparison.

As for as what scripture explicitly says about what God wants and desires:
. . . God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:3-4
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
As for as what scripture explicitly says about what God wants and desires:
. . . God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:3-4

That word I put in "red" font ("men"), are you under the mistaken impression that it says, "individuals"?

It doesn't, you know...

What did Paul mean by "all men"?:
a) "all males"?
b) "all adult males?"
c) "all individuals"?
d) "all kinds of people"?

We can either STUDY what the term means, or else we can do what you do, and simply ASSUME the meaning required by your a priori theology.
 

Theophilos

Well-known member
That word I put in "red" font ("men"), are you under the mistaken impression that it says, "individuals"?

It doesn't, you know...

What did Paul mean by "all men"?:
a) "all males"?
b) "all adult males?"
c) "all individuals"?
d) "all kinds of people"?

We can either STUDY what the term means, or else we can do what you do, and simply ASSUME the meaning required by your a priori theology.
Yes, context is important.

At the time that Paul wrote the letter, the kings and those in authority were all pagans, but "all men" included them.

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1Tim 2:1-7

Here is another example where the same Greek word anthrōpous (men or people) appears.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Romans 5:18
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
That word I put in "red" font ("men"), are you under the mistaken impression that it says, "individuals"?

It doesn't, you know...

What did Paul mean by "all men"?:
a) "all males"?
b) "all adult males?"
c) "all individuals"?
d) "all kinds of people"?

We can either STUDY what the term means, or else we can do what you do, and simply ASSUME the meaning required by your a priori theology.
e) "all men"

Exactly as it states:
1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yes, context is important.

At the time that Paul wrote the letter, the kings and those in authority were all pagans, but "all men" included them.

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1Tim 2:1-7

Yes, and since there is no reason based on this context to CHANGE "all men" to "all INDIVIDUALS", I'm not really sure what your point is.

Again, all you're doing is ASSUMING your theology (aka "eisegesis").

Here is another example where the same Greek word anthrōpous (men or people) appears.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Romans 5:18

Yes, and the CONTEXT of Rom. 5 (going back to vv. 1-5) is limited to the ELECT (those who have been justified, have received the Holy Spirit, accept Jesus as Lord, etc.)

And even if you reject that, it is very easy and natural to interpret "all people" as "all GROUPS of people", so again, all you're doing is ASSUMING your personal theology.
 
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