If salvation is predetermined, why pray for the salvation of others?

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Nice try I’m talking about the natural man in 1 Cor 2.

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Unbelievers are able to understand the gospel before they are saved.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
 
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guest1

Guest
Unbelievers are able to understand the gospel before they are saved.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Except that passage does not validate your claims as you are reading into the passage “ unbelievers “.

I will make a comment just like you just did and assumed in the text.

They were first regenerated prior to belief.

You see I can play the same game as you and in reality do it much better than you can peanut . Most people don’t like playing games with me because I usually get the better end of that stick, just sayin. But if you insist on playing them I can promise I will not be the one who will be frustrated. I have thick skin like an alligator

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PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Except that passage does not validate your claims as you are reading into the passage “ unbelievers “.
They were saved after they believed the gospel.

They were first regenerated prior to belief.
God saves those who believe the gospel by regeneration; they are not regenerated in order to believe the gospel.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
God saves those who believe the gospel by regeneration; they are not regenerated in order to believe the gospel.

<sigh>

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Yes, this teaches that belief is prior to salvation.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Yes, this teaches that regeneration is prior to salvation.


So which verse allegedly teaches that belief is prior to regeneration?

Here's one that teaches the OPPOSITE:

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes [present] that Jesus is the Christ has been born [completed past action] of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
Yes, this teaches that belief is prior to salvation.
...
That's is what scripture states:
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Yes, this teaches that regeneration is prior to salvation.
...
Scripture states that God saves those who believe by regeneration.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So which verse allegedly teaches that belief is prior to regeneration?

Here's one that teaches the OPPOSITE:

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes [present] that Jesus is the Christ has been born [completed past action] of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
The context is not about regeneration prior to belief; the context of the passage is about identifying believers from unbelievers.
 
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guest1

Guest
They were saved after they believed the gospel.


God saves those who believe the gospel by regeneration; they are not regenerated in order to believe the gospel.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Look the bible teaches faith is a gift from God and that regeneration precedes faith.

1 Corinthians 4:7
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

Romans 12:3
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 1:14
The grace
of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

(faith is given out by God along with his grace)

Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

(it is through God's grace that people believe)

Acts. 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.


Regeneration: In English, the word generate means to bring into existence; cause to be; produce. Re-generate basically means again.

So, it means to bring into existence again.

paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal

Original Word:
παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: regeneration, renewal
Usage: a new birth, regeneration, renewal. properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.


Thayers- παλιγγενεσία- properly, new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation . Commonly, however, the word denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as the renewal or restoration of life after death.

When God created Adam, Adam was spiritually alive. When they sinned in the garden they died spiritually.

This is what it means when Paul says we were (past tense) dead in sins. We were regenerated and brought back to spiritual life (that man was originally created with).

Ephesians 2:4-5- But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

Paul says:
(1 Corinthians 2:14 ) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is a spiritually dead person who is unsaved. He does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, and he cannot know them. Why? Because they are spiritually discerned.

Then in the next verse Paul says:
(1 Corinthians 2:15) But he who is spiritual judges all things . . .

The word "judges" there basically means to sift, to examine, to decide rightly.

The question is, how does a natural man who does not accept the things of the Spirit of God become spiritual so that he can sift, examine or decide rightly?

The answer is that God must through His Sovereignty do it.

Most people think that the person must first accept Christ first, and then God will regenerate them. But this contradicts what Paul says in 1 Corinthians. 2:14 above. In order for a natural man to accept Christ, he would have to understand and accept the things of the Spirit of God. Paul says this does not and cannot happen.

hope this helps !!!
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
Romans 12:3
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Context is ministry

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
saved through faith is the gift. Salvation is the gift through faith.

...
 

Theophilos

Well-known member
Unbelievers can ask God for understanding.
They can pray for faith as well:

. . . But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” Mark 9:22-24
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
All three are the Gift of God. Grace, Faith and Salvation. Because of Grace, Faith has to also be a Gift. Obviously Grace is a Gift; but since Faith cannot be a Work, Faith has to be a Gift of God; because if Faith is ever 'of' us, Grace is no longer Grace...
You're conflating Faith and 'of us'.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Faith vs works; not 'our faith' vs 'gift of faith'. The former is scriptural, the latter is not in scripture.
I don't understand that. The reason is probably because I'm stuck on Faith being 'of' Grace, or 'of' us. If Faith is not of Grace, then all which remains is that Faith is of our Self righteousness; I think...

And you and I are against Prevenient Faith...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
God is not pleased to save a self-righteous person's faith; God is pleased to save a broken and contrite person's faith.


I do not subscribe to either Prevenient or Irresistible Faith.
Hmm, Irresistible Faith; I'll have to use that from time-to-time...
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
That's is what scripture states:
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


Scripture states that God saves those who believe by regeneration.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


The context is not about regeneration prior to belief; the context of the passage is about identifying believers from unbelievers.
He did not say the context was about regeneration prior to belief. He said it indicated it. A little reading comprehension goes a long way
 
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